T Nation

My Very First Cycle


I'm considering an epistane cycle. I'd like to only use OTC products. I'd also like to keep it mild and see how my body responds to gear.

Here's what I want to do:

Week 1: Havoc: 10mg, 10, 10, 20, 20, 20, 20
OTC AI (maybe Inhibit-E or 11-oxo): Half the suggested dose

Week 2-3: Havoc: 30mg x7
OTC AI: Half the suggested dose

Week 4: Havoc: 30, 30, 30, 20, 20, 10, 10
OTC AI: Full dose

Week 5: OTC AI: Full dose

Week 6: OTC AI: Full dose

Week 7: OTC AI: Half dose

Week 8: Days 1-3 OTC AI: Half dose Days 4-7 OTC AI: Quarter dose

I will also be taking milk thistle, fish oil and a multivitamin. I'm also going to drink lots and lots of water and eat 1000 calories over maintenance.

Here are the questions I have:

Could I take 20mg of havoc instead of 30mg, or would 20mg not be very effective? I want to do a very low dose and see how my body does, since this is my first cycle. Also, is it a bad idea to take an AI throughout the cycle? I want to because I want to avoid high levels of estrogen. I've seen this done with test cycles, but Epistane supposedly doesn't aromatize, so I'm not sure.

I don't understand the OTC AIs. Would they be an effective PCT, or would I just be lengthening my cycle? ATD and 11-oxo are AIs not SERMs, right? Are there other OTC AIs other than 11-oxo and ATD (inhibit-e is ATD right?)

Are the OTC AIs are on the liver? Is it okay to take them for 8 weeks? Should I do 4 weeks of PCT?

Is there anything else I should add to the cycle?

I'm intimidated by this cycle and I'd like any info you guys have, thanks!


You said OTC in the steroids forum. That shows you havent read the stuff you should have.

Nothing sold OTC will be suitable for PCT.

Why on earth you think you need an AI is beyond me. 11-oxo is not a suitable replacement for a real AI anyway.

You have clearly not done close to enough research.

Add that to the fact that youre underweight and dont even consume 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight (thats a complete joke, in case you didn't know) shows that you are not ready to use any kind of steroid.

Age is not the only factor determining when someone is ready to use steroids safely and effectively. You are small and under educated. Using steroids now is a mistake.


If you're intimidated, don't do it.


I've done some more reading, and the OTC anti-estrogen drugs are AIs not SERMs. I guess this is why they might be enough for PCT. It isn't because they're not real drugs though. SERMs can have estrogen like effects on certain tissues which is part of the reason why I don't want to take them. So would ATD be enough for a light havoc cycle? I've read ATD is practically the same as aromasin.


I say this with no harm intended, but you're a noob. Listen to the people talking here, that have traveled down the road before you.

There is no such thing as an 'acceptable OTC PCT'. If you proceed with only something OTC, you will likely end up with little boobies among other side effects. Get Nolva,or get Clomid, period. Don't screw around with anything else.

If you try to rationalize anything else, it will come back to haunt you.

Good luck, and I would start out at 30mg and keep it there.


You have no idea what youre saying.

Stop preaching to this board like you know what these drugs actually do. It's clear you dont.

Reread my post. I said some things that should have made you ask questions. You didnt because you missed it because you dont understand this stuff enouhg.

READ THE SERM/AI sticky. Or dont expect any replies


satan is there no clomid/nolva in hell? just wondering.....


I've read the AI SERM sticky, but it doesnt say if an AI only PCT is possible. Is a SERM always required, even with such a light cycle? Would I get bad estrogen rebound from just using an AI? What if I did a PCT with only arimidex? Is the problem that I want to use an OTC product, or that I don't have a SERM?



Explain to us what the difference between a SERM and an AI is. How does each affect the endocrine system, as it applies to steroid use.


Here's what we'll do (pretty sure Bonez you'll be on board with this):

-Post your age, height, weight, training experience, PR for major lifts, and any other pertinent information about your conditioning. If you truly are ready, I am more than willing to give advice, but in the words of Dennis Miller, "I'm willing to help the helpless, but not the clueless."


i thought 11-oxo was a cortisol blocker?

do you mean 6-oxo? if so, that was banned/discontinued a long time ago.

I digress, get a SERM. Novla or Clomid. Epistane, itself, is an anti-estrogenic compound, so no need for an AI or AE.

Edit: Have you even googled "Epistane information"?


did you know there are stickies on the very top of the board that outline good cycles and pcts?


I've been able to find on epistane PCT. On other forums, people often only use 6-bromo or ADT as PCT. It seems like the use of serms in these sorts of low dose, short cycles is an opinion that varies a lot from group to group.

Here are my questions:

  • Is epistane effective at 20mg? Should I ramp up the dosage, or just start at 20mg?
  • Would there be any point to using an AI at a low dose during the cycle?
  • Which pharmaceutical steroid is comparable to epistane? I read it's epitiostanol, but no one uses that one. Does it feel like anavar, or primo? How strong is 30mg, compared to testosterone?
  • Are OTC AIs hard on the liver?

Again, I'm just trying to get some information from people who have done this sort of thing. I don't know what a cycle like this would feel like and how many other side effects I should expect.


Why are SERMs used for PCT? Your explanation makes no mention of LH and FSH or the HPTA. You cant say youve read a lot and not come across those terms. Which are THE most important terms relevant to PCT.

Answer this. Why are AI's used? And Why do you want to use an AI with A NON AROMATIZEABLE STEROID??

You need to stop talking like you know stuff and read the fucking PH/DS sticky. You are so lost its comical. And the sad part is you think youre on the right track.

For the last time, remove "OTC" from your vocabulary when discussing AAS.


give us some stats:

years training
is this your first PH?

BTW, no one is going to recommend anything OTC for a PCT.


Throw in the towel satan and go read.


21 5'10.5", 180, 10%, 4 years
a little under maintenance right now with 150-200g of protein, if I do this I'll eat 500-1000k over maintenance and try to eat 300g of protein, although that sometimes gives me stomach aches
multivitamin, fish oil, and liver support, nettle root
and yes this might be my first cycle

I might take a serm since you guys recommend it so strongly. Which is the mildest and what is the shortest length of time I should take it if I take an AI after?

Also, I didn't explain lutenizing hormone etc, but the basics are estrogen goes up, testies produce less testosterone. AIs and SERMs are used to control estrogen and make the body reset hormone levels. I don't know how relevant gnrh all that stuff is anyway. hcg isnt produced in men, but people say that it can help reset the testies. That seems like overkill for my proposed cycle though.


The line about hCG is completely wrong. You do not use it during PCT. You do not want to mimic LH to retart natural T production. THe goal is to stimulate natural LH production. Using a drug that mimics it will add to the suppression of the HPTA (the thing that is trying to be 'fixed' in PCT).

Since you are so dense and cant seem to figure out what I'm trying to say I'll just tell you.

Aromatase inhibitors are ONLY used when aromatizeable steroids are used. Epistane DOES NOT aromatize. Estrogen will NOT rise when using it. Therefore it is completely unnecessary to use an AI and using one will only have negative effects.

AI's are not used for PCT. They are tapered off competely before PCT ends.

SERMs like tamoxifen and clomiphene (and toremifene) are the only suitable drugs for PCT. Lowering estrogen is not the main part of a successful PCT. And simply lowering estrogen will not be enough to restart HPTA.

I'm done in this thread.

And btw. 5'10 180 means you dont knmow how to eat. You aren't close to ready for this stuff, physically or mentally.


How about low dose letro? From what I've read it isnt an estrogen receptor agonist in some tissues the way clomid and tamoxifen are.

Could a nonaromatasing steroid still cause an increase in estrogen? I know it wouldn't convert into estrogen directly but I thought estrogen might increase just because of hormonal imbalances.

Also, I found out that epistane has serm activity. I wonder if it can be an estrogen receptor agonist in some tissue. Supposedly its only active with er beta receptors. I'm looking into 1-ad now because epistane seems sorta weird and untested. Again, I don't know how relevant this sort of thing is.


Joined March 2010. Ignorant posts. Refuses to listen. For people who have been around a while I say TSB.