T Nation

My short cycle revisited


#1

Two weeks ago I posted my results from my first ever cycle, limited to two weeks of 50 mg Tren + 50 mg Winny ED day 1-13.

To sum things up - increased kcals during the cycle to 4200 from 2500 precycle, started clomid at 50 mg ED day 14, at day 13 had gained 13 pounds without noticeable fatgain, went back to dieting at 2500 kcals (240 g protein) on day 14, at day 21 I had lost 10 pounds with noticeable muscular circumference decreases. My strength did increase significantly though, and seems unaffected by my postcycle period.

The main reason for me choosing 2-week cycles was Bill Roberts reasoning that they require less time for recovery, mainly due to supression occuring only at the pituitary level, and therefore dieting can start soon/immediatly after the cycle and continue for about three of the recommended four weeks off. This appeals to me.

Obviously I must have done something wrong, since so much of my gains were quickly lost. P-dog, massnutrition and JT adviced me to continue postcycle with calories still at maintenance or above, and delay my dieting phase until t-levels were back to normal. Now as I?m planning my next cycle I?m still interested in a 2-weeker, though with some modifications. So lets hear your opinions on this:

  1. Stay on maintenance calories for the first week post cycle and start dieting the week after.

  2. Frontload the clomid at 300 mg. Maybe my concentration didn?t reach high enough levels quickly enough, and thus decreased my massretention. Should have known this. Duh.

  3. Weekly injections of Primobolan ~300 mg, or Test Enanthate 100-200 mg on day 13 and the week thereafter. Cy?s latest article showed some arguments and references that endogenous production would still recover despite of such "bridging" androgen-use, and my thought is that this would enable postcycle dieting without inhibiting recovery.

Good or bad? What do you vets think?


#2

bump


#3

I think you are expecting that water retention is muscle gain. You upped your cals, right? So more cals=more glycogen stores=more water stored in muscle.
I believe you are putzing around with 2 week wastes of gear.
Do a 6 weeker, if you have clomid, and use that post cycle 100mg enan recovery method you'll be gold in very little time.
2 weeks sucks, IMHO.


#4

No one with any experience from 2-weekers?


#5

I've been 'pudzsing' around with 'waste of time' 2weekers (3 2on 4off) and have gained 20 lbs of lean bodymass.
If there is one thing I like about them its the lack of losses in between cycles prolly due to less shutdown.


#6

1) I would not start dieting until all the exogenous androgens cleared my system and normal test levels had recovered. I would expect this to take about 4 weeks.

2)I don't think a frontload of 300mg is really necessary, maybe only 100mg for a cycle as you described.

3)I would not use any sort of bridge for a 2 week cycle.


#7

Gray: Sounds like some nice solid gains there. I read your previous posts about choice of roids and dosages... any plans for coming cycles?

Warhorse:
Why would you recommend to wait until all exogenous roids are gone before starting a diet? If using for example Test Enanthate at 100 mg/week, ASSUMING that this undoubtly will not hamper hpta-recovery, wouldn?t that be an optimal approach? Please elaborate!


#8

It takes time for the body to recover and stabilize, so I would never go hypocaloric during that period.

If you need to cut, then cut, if you need to bulk, then bulk. Quality physique changes take time, period.

As far as the Test E I think it unecessary for such a short cycle and would rather come off with Clomid and Methoxy.


#9

I wouldnt use anything with a longer life than Test prop. for the 2 0n 4 off cycles, enanth. imo is best left for the longer cycles. Sounds like its the diet that is robbing u of ur gains not the pct. I have used nolv. alone for one week pc on all mine but this time The creatine has really helped keep my moral up by holding my bw just one pound below peak and thats a week after my last jab when on prev. cycles I may have lost 3. My diet only changes slightly when I'm on, for example; extra per day - 2 whole eggs, 50 grams whey and a couple pints water. So I see where ur coming from on the bf fear but in ur case its too big of a change and at the wrong time.


#10

I regularly do the same cycle you just ran. I love it and you did not do anyhing wrong. I think your problem is diet. I do not change my calories intake while on or off. It only depends on if I'm bulking or cutting.
It is obvious that if you almost half your calories intake as soon as you come off you will be catabolic since even your test levels are low. Ok, you can cut a little but not jump from 4200 to 2500kcal.
Don't use (DON'T!) any test as bridge (the bridge thing is BS IMO). The idea behind this kind of short cycles is being off as soon as you stop the fast acting aas, if you think of bridging with other aas the idea of recovering fast is finished.
I also use some "herbal boosts" during my four/five weeks off. It seems to work pretty well.


#11

I guess all agree that cutting calories as much as I did at a low androgen level is a bad idea. No questioning that.
HOWEVER, what I?m really interested in is again what short and long term recovery effect a bridging protocol would result in. Up until recently I?ve been very "anti-bridging", but if what Cy stated in his last CYBORG is applicable, then I think it?s worth looking to in more depth.

"We have data supporting that suppression of LH can be prevented when elevating Testosterone up to a peak concentration of 2,044 ng/dl, provided that an estrogen antagonist or aromatase inhibitor is used."

" 100 mg of enanthate given to seven eugonadal men resulted in a mean peak concentration of 1,181 ng/dl... you could technically use 200 mg/week with my post cycle protocol and still be fine, but I?m going to stick to my original recommendation of 100 mg/week...every person who?s used my protocol (and reported back to me) has retained or even made gains while recovering endogenous Testosterone production. "

Bill Roberts, in his 2week case-study, utilizes dianabol 10 mg/ED and anavar 20 mg/ED in the morning for the first two weeks postcycle (weeks 3-5). It shows t-bloodworks that starts of at 50 ng/dl at the start of week 3, but at week 4 they have reached 529 ng/dl.
Quote: "Oral AAS: These do not assist recovery of natural testosterone production, but if used only in the morning, can help sustain muscle mass while in the recovery phase, with little or no adverse effect on recovery."

"...Because the pituitary- and hypothalamus-suppressive effects of T could be mediated by its aromatization to estrogens, five GnRH-deficient and five normal men underwent identical T infusions with concomitant administration of the aromatase inhibitor testolactone (TL; 500 mg, orally, every 6 h). As an additional control, four GnRH-deficient and four normal men received TL alone. TL administration completely prevented the effect of T administration to suppress gonadotropin secretion in both the normal and GnRH-deficient men, and mean LH levels increased significantly in both the GnRH-deficient (P less than 0.01) and the normal (P less than 0.001) men who received TL alone..."
/19. Finkelstein JS, Whitcomb RW, O?Dea LStL, Longcope C, Schoenfeld DA, Crowley Jr WF. 1991 Sex steroid control of gonadotropin secretion in the human male. I. Effects of testosterone administration in normal and gonadotropin-releasing hormone-deficient men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 73:609?620

Looks like they both are saying that lowdose androgen use in combination with an aromatase inhibitor/anti-estrogen postcycle is a good idea since HPTA will restore anyway under these circumstances. When reading more from Bill Roberts you get the impression that this would be even more so if supressive highdose androgen use is limited to two weeks, since that would save the pituitary from having to recover and actually sensitizing it to LHRH, and instead work at the hypothalamic region which is more easily restorable.

Damn, it would be interesting to see some more extensive bloodworks on this kind of approach. Here in Sweden it?s possible to take salivatory/blood tests via mail regularly as a private, without having to go via a doctor... If I ever do I?ll let you guys now. And if I the fuck up my hormones you can always refer to me as the stupid guy that didn?t listen to the vets. :o)
By the way, drago1 - didn?t you use primo as a bridge? Any recovery issues?