My reading list

MQ:

Do you attempt to read and comprehend those articles you post, or do you just accept their conclusions and regurgitate without thinking critically about them? You failed to respond at all to my criticisms of the labor-market article, other than to cite the source. My critique was based upon reading the source. In other words, I already knew the source. What about my arguments?

As to the BBC program, I do not have the capability of viewing the whole program at work, but one would presume that articles by the man would make the same basic arguments. Or does he change his premises or reasoning in the BBC program? Please enlighten me as to the differences? BTW, isn’t this that same journalist who was the basis of that silly conspiracy theory article against Schwarzenegger that I debunked in a previous thread?

As to the think-tank, I will try to read that Blair Minister’s article later. At first blush, what you wrote didn’t change any analysis though. And apparently I was too hurried this morning to type the presumed conclusion to this: that Bush et al somehow planned the WTC attack. Surely you have more than innuendo to accuse the President and all of his advisors of high treason?

Finally, as to the article I posted: Of course it was simple. You may have taken the class, but from reading your posts I do not get the feeling you absorbed the message. Feel free to demonstrate, rather than claim, understanding in future posts.

Thanks.

That www.cooperativeresearch.org site has thousands & thousands of mainstream sources showing what the Bush regime could have known about the 9-11 attacks, the role the Pakistani ISI played in them & how the Bush regime simply allowed them to happen in order to justify massive military spending & attacks on Afghanistan & Iraq to dominate the last untapped world’s oil reserves.

Actually I’ll make it much easier. These timelines are much too long & detailed to put here, but someone can just copy/paste to see that it’s not totally crazy to say that the Bush government allowed the attacks to happen on purpose.

Information that should have shown what kind of attack al-Qaeda would make:

Suggestions of advanced knowledge that an attack would take place on or around 9/11:

Central Asian oil, Enron and the Afghanistan pipelines:

US preparing for a war with Afghanistan before 9/11, increasing control of Asia before & since:

Pakistani ISI and/or opium drug connections:

Could not comfortably relate my reading list as I do not have days to waste. Needless to say, it is substantial.

United States=Good Guys

P.S. I’m happy that algore lost the election.

"That www.cooperativeresearch.org site has thousands & thousands of mainstream sources showing what the Bush regime could have known about the 9-11 attacks, the role the Pakistani ISI played in them & how the Bush regime simply allowed them to happen in order to justify massive military spending & attacks on Afghanistan & Iraq to dominate the last untapped world’s oil reserves. "

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU. Can you please give me some background about you, so I can understand how the fuck you are so dumb and I can avoid the same problems with the kids I plan to teach.

“WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU.”

Look I said something, I told you where you can verify what I said, including a James Baker Institute & Council on Foreign Relations study on the USA oil/energy supply advocating military action against Iraq & Afghanistan that was released just 5 months before 9-11-01. Did these things happen or not?

Strategic Energy Policy Challenges for the 21st Century:
http://www.rice.edu/projects/baker/Pubs/workingpapers/cfrbipp_energy/energytf.htm
A summary here:
http://www.sundayherald.com/28224
This War on Terror is Bogus:

Kuri-- That analysis is definitely pre-Iraq conflict. What we are actually finding with our military is that although we have some neat gear and advanced warfighting techniques we are running low on in-stock replenishables. Beans, Bullets, and Band-Aids. That’s a great tactic for running a low overhead shipping or retail business, however it does not step up to the spectre of global warfighting. We are going to see adjustments in the DoD budget to account for the “starve” mentality that made parts of the military more efficient. The budget cuts were a bad thing™. One of the most significant cuts were to benefits to those who have fought and served before Clinton’s presidency. Talking about dishonoring those who have gone before. The other major cut was to new recruits and the benefits that they would be eligible for. The problem with that is that the cream tends to leave the military as the benefits degrade. This is not to dishonor those exemplary people that remain. That statement was to point out that a greater percentage of the remainder will be of a less-than-optimal performance capability.

"Look I said something, I told you where you can verify what I said, including a James Baker Institute & Council on Foreign Relations study on the USA oil/energy supply advocating military action against Iraq & Afghanistan that was released just 5 months before 9-11-01. Did these things happen or not? "

…and if you think that “proves” that the U.S. knew about 9-11 before hand and didnt do anything than you are a top shelf numptie and need to get your balls removed so you can never ever ever have children. Dear god. I wrote an article in fucking H.S about extending MFN to China, that doesnt mean that my article was the reason it happened. Learn some commmon sense and elementary reasoning skills or I am gonna have to sic BostonBarrister to smack you around again.

“…and if you think that “proves” that the U.S. knew about 9-11 before hand and didnt do anything than you are a top shelf numptie and need to get your balls removed so you can never ever ever have children.”

No, it doesn’t ‘prove’ anything, but what if the White House admitted to 9-11 foreknowledge? ahahahaha

I’ll even put the daily update from Misleader.org here so you don’t have to follow the link:

White House Admits Pre-9/11 Warnings; Bush Still Denies It

At his press conference yesterday, President Bush was asked about charges that he had received warnings prior to the September 11th attacks that a terrorist incident was imminent. He answered that even asking such a question was "an absurd insinuation."1 It was the same sentiment expressed by Bush’s National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, who said in May of 2002 that "[no one predicted] that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane."2

The problem for the president and the administration is that the White House has previously admitted that the president had personally received such specific warnings. As ABC News reported in May of 2002, "White House officials acknowledge that U.S. intelligence officials informed President Bush weeks before the September 11th attacks that Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network might try to hijack American planes."3 As Condoleezza Rice said at a hastily called press conference to spin these revelations, the President specifically received an “analytic report” on August 6th, 2001 at his Crawford mansion that “talked about Osama bin Laden’s methods of operation” and "mentioned hijacking."4 According to Reuters, that report was congruent with "intelligence since 1998 that said followers of bin Laden were planning to strike U.S. targets, hijack U.S. planes."5.

While the administration claims that the president’s pre-9/11 warning was actually “not a warning,” the threat was specific enough for Attorney General John Ashcroft to stop flying commercial airlines. While no warning was issued for the general public after Bush’s personal intelligence warning, Ashcroft was flying exclusively by leased jet instead of commercial airlines because of an official "threat assessment by the FBI."6

The numbers scattered throughout the text are the sources they cite, like CBS, ABC, Reuters, WH press conferences, etc etc.

http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/Read.asp?fn=df12162003.html

Terrific dude. You cracked the case. I think any level headed person could assume that some aspects of this must have been discovered before hand or else our intelligence gathering is even more woeful than anyone would believe. That does not however mean that the President knew the specific details of any plan and let it happen as you and your fellow conspiracy quacks seem to be insinuating. You also need to get it out of your head that the government and its various beuractatic agencies act as some vast monolithic group whose am is to screw the world and cover up everything in the process. After all, if that was the aim of the American government dont you think one of those low paid disgruntled government wonks would have let the secret out by now.

I literally JUST CHECKED my email & found this from truthout.org. Seriously, just 5 minutes ago!

9/11 CHAIR: ATTACK WAS PREVENTABLE
(CBS) For the first time, the chairman of the independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks is saying publicly that 9/11 could have and should have been prevented, reports CBS News Correspondent Randall Pinkston.

“This is a very, very important part of history and we’ve got to tell it right,” said Thomas Kean.

“As you read the report, you’re going to have a pretty clear idea what wasn’t done and what should have been done,” he said. “This was not something that had to happen.”

Appointed by the Bush administration, Kean, a former Republican governor of New Jersey, is now pointing fingers inside the administration and laying blame.

“There are people that, if I was doing the job, would certainly not be in the position they were in at that time because they failed. They simply failed,” Kean said.

To find out who failed and why, the commission has navigated a political landmine, threatening a subpoena to gain access to the president’s top-secret daily briefs. Those documents may shed light on one of the most controversial assertions of the Bush administration ? that there was never any thought given to the idea that terrorists might fly an airplane into a building.

& the Congressional Commission is threatening a subpoena to get their mitts on those briefings, especially the Aug 06, 2001 one. :slight_smile:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/17/eveningnews/main589137.shtml

OK MQ:

I have narrowed this down to three possibilities. Either you don’t actually read these things and just regurgitate the summaries that these kooky organizations send you, you are so emotionally excited because these things tend to agree with your pre-held conceptions that you convince yourself of their accuracy even if you do read them, or you are not smart enough to recognize the ridiculous assumptions that are necessary to jump from your facts to your conclusions. I’m leaning toward a mix of the first two, as you seem like a fairly intelligent person.

Firstly, as was pointed out above, one cannot take “the government” as a monolithic actor. Apply principles of public choice theory and transaction cost economics, along with a the understanding that individuals within the government will act in their own self interest. Agencies do not always work together. People within agencies do not always work together. And almost never does any one individual possess all the relevant information attributable to “the government,” especially at one time, and especially before any particular threat has become recognized as a clear and present danger of great magnitude.

Then consider the turnover between administrations, especially at the top positions. When one is beginning at a new position, it is impossible that that person will have the institutional knowledge of that institution within his or her own personal knowledge. Now consider that the turnover at the top level of management of governmental agencies between administrations is near 100%.

For an analogous example, I have been at my job for almost a year and a half now. I am staffed on various “client teams,” and am responsible for various aspects of servicing those clients. Yet I do not even begin to have a working knowledge of what is in our files for all of those clients – and I would not go looking stuff up and reading through the files for things unless I had some specific goal in mind (i.e. something I knew was there, was told was there, or knew must be there). If there is a memo in the file that warns of some contingent possibility of something going wrong that was placed there by another junior associate who is no longer with my firm, and who did not even immediately precede me, I will have no idea it is there. And our files do not even begin to compare in size and scope to the files of government agencies, although ours are better organized in general.

Now, let’s apply this background information to your list of facts concerning the Bush Administration and 9/11 – but I’ll add a few of my own. There had been turnover at the top of the FBI at least 3 times from the beginning of your timeline until the end. The turnover at the CIA had been greater. There had been three different administrations, with various heads and deputy heads of state, defense, etc., throughout the timeline. And the transitions between administrations were from various parties [Anyone remember the removal of the “W’s” from all the White House keyboards? Might it be conceivable that the leaving officers might not be ultra-enthusiastic of helping to transition their replacements?]. This is an aspect of a democratic republic that leads to great inefficiencies.

Now, a lot of the facts on your list consist of identifying that at various times intelligence officers had noted the possibility of airplane hijackings. What is not noted anywhere are all the other contingent possibilities that have been identified. I am quite certain the intelligence agencies have spent time thinking about all sorts of possibilities for terror attacks, from chemical agents in the water supply to suitcase bombs to bioengineered viruses. Many of these have never been carried out, but I’m certain that many have been considered by terrorist groups. I’m certain there exists evidence of terrorists attempting to obtain all sorts of nasty stuff for various nefarious purposes. The possibility of a hijacked airplane being used as a missle was just one among many dangers about which there was institutional knowledge of its possibility. Imputing that knowledge to any certain member of the administration is highly speculative, and very improbable. Not to mention that even if such factoid were contained in some brief presented at some fixed point in the past as a speculative possibility, one could easily imagine a person forgetting such fact.

Then there is your information concerning knowledge of an attack around the time of 9/11. Firstly, all the entries concerning information before “early September” are so ridiculous as to barely merit attention. For instance, the idea that, if the U.S. had been following a suspect outside the U.S. on August 29, 2001, had intercepted a certain communication and decoded it as a reference to a date, with no further context, they might have known this was a date for an attack. Please. All the others are similary preposterous. Even after that, there is much speculation as to the content of unreleased intelligence materials from various governments, the references to which are purposefully oblique.

However, the overall idea that it was known an attack might occur around that time would also not trouble me. While people are focusing upon evidence that there was some sort of warning of some sort of attack being planned that was linked to airline hijackings around this time, there does not seem to be further knowledge concerning the details of that attack – at least none that worked its way up the chain. This was already covered in the blow up concerning that FBI memorandum on the flight-school attendees, and further covered in testimony that investigations of certain suspects were dropped due to lack of evidence and civil liberty concerns. This was one of the reasons the Patriot Act was passed.

Finally, with regard to evidence of knowledge of an attack, this has to be taken in the context of the speculative nature of intelligence information. It is not the same as a scientific of courtroom fact. [As people should also consider when interpreting actions based on intelligence information concerning Saddam’s WMD’s, although in that case people apparently want to spin it the other way.] Surely, if one examined the record, there would be numerous previous occasions where there was evidence of a planned attack where nothing happened. Since the advent of the alert system, I can think of many times when we were put on alert and nothing happened, such as the speculation concerning attacks on a bridge. Conspiracy theorists like to apply 20/20 hindsight, but one must remember that those acting at the time in evaluating the attack would treat the ones that turned out to be false and the ones that turned out to be true in similar fashion, as the quality of the information from which they were working was similar.

I do not know why one would expect that the Bush Administration would shut down all airports based on the information it apparently had, or take other such action, when no one seemingly cares that this sort of preventative action had not occurred previously and has not occurred since, irrespective of any speculation concerning attacks. The only way to have prevented the attacks, based on the limited information that some sort of attack was planned in the general time frame would have been to shut down all flights to and from the U.S. for the days speculated – and then afterwards as well, whenever such a threat came up again.

So, to link the various threads of your conspiracy theory, you need to take the highly speculative and improbable fact that a certain, speculative contingency worry was in the specific knowledge of administration higher ups at the time in question, and then presume that these same people were also privy to the various pieces of lower-level information that were shown to have not been pushed up the chain, along with other pieces of information that may or may not have been known [including some ridiculous assumptions from your list – just go back and read the ones earliest in the timeline]. From there, you need to assume such pieces of information were put together, and that a decision was made to allow the attacks to procede in order that certain unnamed defense companies with unknown ties to administration officials [whether to the same individuals to whom the above knowledge is imputed is unclear] might benefit. And all the while keeping this conspiracy a secret – so all the various people with knowledge must have been in on it and not have been bothered by that whole treason thing.

Finally, as all your facts are apparently easy to access and pulled from the public record, why didn’t anyone put them together beforehand? Was it a vast conspiracy on the part of investigative journalists to give them a story to publish later? Imagine the prestige available for someone who put together all those facts ahead of time and then held off in order to publish later and prove to the world what had happened. Definitely a Pulitzer, and all the fame and money attached to uncovering such a story. I’m definitely seeing a possible journalist conspiracy here among the authors of your sources… Hmmm…

Repeat after me: Conspiracy theories are ridiculous.

Oh yeah, I forgot:

Here is the rest of your CBS story that you didn’t want to post:

“I don’t think anybody could have predicted that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile,” said national security adviser Condoleeza Rice on May 16, 2002.

“How is it possible we have a national security advisor coming out and saying we had no idea they could use planes as weapons when we had FBI records from 1991 stating that this is a possibility,” said Kristen Breitweiser, one of four New Jersey widows who lobbied Congress and the president to appoint the commission.

The widows want to know why various government agencies didn’t connect the dots before Sept. 11, such as warnings from FBI offices in Minnesota and Arizona about suspicious student pilots.

“If you were to tell me that two years after the murder of my husband that we wouldn’t have one question answered, I wouldn’t believe it,” Breitweiser said.

Kean admits the commission also has more questions than answers.

Asked whether we should at least know if people sitting in the decision-making spots on that critical day are still in those positions, Kean said, “Yes, the answer is yes. And we will.”

Kean promises major revelations in public testimony beginning next month from top officials in the FBI, CIA, Defense Department, National Security Agency and, maybe, President Bush and former President Clinton.

? MMIII, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.

This story is not imputing any specific knowledge to the President or administration. It is imputing an intelligence failure, which is highly probable. Please read my post above and think about it to see possible reasons for such a failure, and why it is more an institutional failure than the fault of any particular administration [Note: I am not blaming the Clinton adminsitration.]

Finally, from the incomparable James Lileks, this writing illustrating the ridiculousness of conspiracy theories:

“Dean, talking to Diane Rehm – the Mother Teresa of Beltway radio – excoriated Bush for undue privacy in the Sept. 11 investigation. It produced some “interesting” theories, Dean said, such as the idea that the Saudis warned Bush of the imminent attack. Very clever, this; it allowed Dean to move the charge from the fever swamps of Internet forums to the national spotlight. Did he believe it? Oh, no – but it’s interesting, he said, and can’t be disproved. OK, then: Dr. Dean sealed his gubernatorial records, and this makes some suspect he was an abortionist who sold the sundered remains to Satanists for Black Mass rituals. Hey, it’s an interesting theory. Until we see the records, who knows?”

M.Q.

I am asking seriously, do you really believe all of the information you get from the sources you’ve listed? Wouldn’t you agree that the information you provide comes from very far left sources and that they certainly have an agenda - just as extreme far right websites, books, etc. have an agenda.

I’m conservative but many of the conservative websites completely turn me off because the individuals on the site and message boards absolutely manipulate every piece of information they get there hands on to fit their agenda.

Don’t you think the left does the same thing?

“agenda” is such a loaded word. These people are REPORTERS who are just doing their job.

“Conspiracy theory” is used only to discredit ideas that go against the grain. It’s used to intimidate or deter people who might try to analyze the situation, question the people in power or go against the grain. Anybody who tries to figure out what really happened with the Kennedy assassination or the Princess Diana car crash is immediately labelled a “conspiracy theorist” as if that’s a technical term. Look at what the site editor for www.cooperativeresearch.org says about this: “look at what the Nixon Administration was claiming and the press generally reporting when the Watergate story was in its early stages, for instance…At some point, when enough “dots” line up, the thought that everything is just coincidence becomes the wildest theory of all.”

What I put up is simply a compilation that has been pieced together from the last bunch of years that mention the 9/11/01 attacks & that’s all. I don’t know what happened, but what’s on www.cooperativeresearch.org is the most complete & detailed ANALYSIS ( NOT “conspiracy theory”) I’ve seen so far.

We’ll have to see what that independent commission uncovers in the next month, like they say, when they talk to the people from the FBI, CIA, President Clinton, the NSA, the Defence Department & maybe even the White House. Maybe the White House will finally get subpoenaed like they’ve been threatened with.

Larry, you make a good point regarding how information is spun. That said, just because something is not propogated by mainstream network news does not mean it has no merit. They have agendas too.

Regarding 9/11 & what Bush may or may not have known, it has been widely reported that GWB on Aug. 6th was handed reports by the CIA concerning Osama & warnings of a terrorist attack.

If it could have been prevented its hard to say. But prior to that the Bush Admin had focused its efforts on missle defense systems and rogue nations, not the possiblity of a terrorist strike by other means.

So what about the “reporters” who can offer credible, facts, witnesses, admissions, citations, ect., that refute the things you say. Are they also reporters and if so do you give their information any credit. Rush, Drudge, Horowitz and Coulter can all give convincing rebuttles to the facts you’ve listed. Don’t you think these people have an agenda? I do and I’m on their team. They inflate and discount facts all the time in order to fit the conservative agenda. I’m sure you would agree, so why don’t you think the reporters or publications you’ve mentioned do the same thing.

Kuri,

I would never refute any administrations discount of the terror threat prior to 9/11. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the white house didn’t take warnings serious enough. However, if some people are suggesting that Bush actually knew what was coming and simply did nothing to prevent it so that he would have justification to use military force, that’s just nuts.

Neither Clintons or Bush’s administration did much to get Bin Laden prior to 9/11. Clinton would have gone into Afganistan after we were attacked and it is almost certain he would have gone into Iraq, the same as Bush did. Clinton was beating the same drum during the later part of his presidency. He gave a speech to Congress stating the same facts and concerns as Bush did.

Kuri,

I would never imply that the major network news agencies don’t have a slant one way or another. Also, I agree that alternative news sources can and do provide good information.