I’ve been in PCT for a couple of weeks now following a test/tren/bolasterone stack. I was doing clomid alone, and everything seemed to be going fine, until last week. I woke up and both of my nipples hurt like hell. Upon inspecting them I found a swollen lump uner each nipple. I immediately started novla. First day I did 40mg, but after still feeling slight sensitivity in my nips upped to 80mg/day. Slowly but surely the lumps have gotten smaller in size. The lump under my right nipple has almost completely disappeared, and the lump under my left is less than half it’s original size. Almost all pain and soreness has disappeared from both areas. They were still a little puffy a few days ago so I dropped .25 mg of arimidex and plan on doing so EOD for a week or two. Hopefully the lump on the left side also completely disappears, but at the size it is now it is unnoticeable. Looking in the mirror I can’t see anything, and I have to touch it to know it’s there. It could possibly be visible under extremely low bodyfat scenarios. It’s as gotten smaller and less sore everyday since i started the nolva so I’m still optimistic it will go away completely. As a lesson though…do NOT wait for sore or itchy nips to start anti-e therapy. You could very well wake up one day and out of the blue and have two swollen lumps.
Good information, Moriarity! Would you give us the details of the cycle that preceeded the problem? How long between the end of the cycle and when you first noticed gyno?
My Cycle looked like:
Test Cyp 1000mg/wk (may have been underdosed)
Tren Acetate 75mg ED
Bolasterone 10mg/ ED first 4 weeks
It was about 3 weeks after my last shot that I noticed the symptoms. I believe this corresponded with the time for my Cyp blood levels to fall to an appreciable level.
were you using anti-e’s while on the cycle?
now that you have experienced this you will now be ULTRA sensitive to estrogen. So bare this in mind next time you plan your cycle. Femara or arimidex will be a must!
I foolishly did not run anti-e for most of the cycle…part of the reason was thought after i started the cycle i got word that the gear may have been underdosed/bogus, so i wanted to wait until i saw some bloat or other symptoms to make sure the gear was legit. A posting this mostly as a lesson to others. Do not fool yourself into thinking you can just wait until the symptoms start. Also I know a few people on the board have experienced something similiar and had their lumps completely disappear, so I wanted to see if that seemed plausibile given my scenario. I figured if anything will make this go away it’s 80mg/day of nolva.
I remember dan duchaine wrote that tren works like a progesterone. What that means is that an estrogen blocker isn’t going to do anything to stop the progesterone effects on the mammary gland.
True but I suspect the culprit was the 1000mg of Test a week.
Obviously raised Estrogen from test is well known, I figured it went without mentioning. What I never hear anyone talking about is the progesterone activity of trenbolone that is why I raised that issue. Estrogen in combination with progesterone will produce breast development way faster than estrogen alone, due to the different effects of the two hormones on the mammary gland. Estrogen mostly causes fat deposits in the gland to grow which is the most reversible effect. Progestorone causes the milk ducts to differentiate and grow. The milk ducts all feed into one point called the nipple. If you have a lump right under the nipple that is the milk ducting developing. Progesterone is what makes womens titties hurt when they are on the rag. The fact that the soreness took a while to go away even when he started using antiestrogens would indcate that they weren’t all that effective, Progesterone would explain this. The main point I wanted to get across to him is that there is a whole other hormonal pathway involved here that noone ever mentions. By now most people are hip to the antiestrogen tip. So they figure if they are taking anti E’s they are safe from gyno and it’s not true. Also progesterone does more to shut down the HPTA than estrogen. I had freind who was using trenbolone with clomid thinking he was safe, when I eplained all this to him you should have seen how big his eyes got when I mentioned that progesterone is what they use to chemically castrate rapists. Progesterone is way more toxic to the male system than estrogen so this is not a minor issue at all. This was something that Mag10 had over trenbolone besides being non aromatizing and antagonistic to estrogen, it wasn’t like a progesterone. Does that explain it better to you my brother
Ahh! You have to play it smart and use anti-e’s even if you suspect bogus gear. Assumptions will always get you into trouble. It’s better to be safe than sorry. As Creed said, that 1000mg of Test is probably what did it. You live and you learn. That’s life.
While I agree that a gram of test will raise estradiol, antiestrogens will not keep you safe from progesterone. That is the point I am trying to get across.
I see people asking how much antiE to use with trenbolone (which is nonaromatizing) and I never see anything mentioned about progesterone effects. Even though progesterone does more to build the milk making and delivering machinery than Estrogen, while also shutting down the HPTA leaving you vulnerable post cycle to the effects of estrogen. That is why clomid or nolvadex would probably be better than arimidex, but still fairly useless.
The milk ducts all come together under the nipple, that is what forms “the lump”. Progesterone develops the milk ducts more than estrogen. Progesterone mimicing is one of the reasons why biotest never produced nandrolone EC. Does that make some sense
“What I never hear anyone talking about is the progesterone activity of trenbolone that is why I raised that issue.”
That might be true. However, using a 1000mg of Test along with the Tren without anti-e’s will potentiate the progesterone activity of Tren BIGTIME. I think that the progestenic activity of Tren is overstated. Not everyone who uses it is going to encounter extreme levels of progesterone and get gyno. Running the anti-e’s throughout the entire cycle will be beneficial and SMART. If one uses arimidex or something similar like femara then a large portion of progestagenic action is nullified since there is no circulating estrogen. You have eliminate the problem before it begins. That is why one must use the strongest anti-e’s available when stacking aromatizing compounds with compounds like Tren or even worse Deca. Don’t gamble with that situation. You will lose. Better make a appt. for gyno removal via scalpal.
Let me make it more clear…Start the Arimidex(.25/eod) and Nolva(20mg/day) or Clomid(50mg/day) together at the beginning of a cycle. While it may take a bit for the arimidex to work and inhibit estrogen formation, the nolva or clomid will work immediately by inhibiting the estrogen receptor. This will drastically reduce the chance of getting gyno when stacking aromatizing compounds with Tren or Deca. It works for thousands of other AAS users. You just cannot wait until the problem occurs.
You guys are right, I had overlooked that progesterone effects. Although, the soreness and swelling went down immediately after beginning the nolvadex. The lump is yet again smaller this morning, so crossing my fingers (It is also slightly to the side, not directly underneatht he nipple).
The possibility of progesterone aromatization is there, but the commonality of its occurance, I have yet to prove. I will prove it in my upcomming cutting cycle when i continue to to do take femara 1/2 dose e.d. and I eliminate test and take only tren and winstrol. I I start to get a gyno problem I will know then that it is cause because of the tren. Bromocryptine is the sollution to this problem, and “M” may help as well. the main ingredient in “M” is chaste berry (Vitex) which blocks progesterone receptor sites.
This is why I tell everyone to use Clomid AND Nolvadex for PCT. There is always debate on which to use and which is better. Bullshit. Use both.
Another thing I don’t understand is your severity. I have never heard of anyone waking up one morning and have their nipples “hurt like hell”. Usually the process is gradual with any build up of estrogen or progesterone. Most times it’s stumbled upon, like being irritated by a towel while drying off after a shower, etc.
Also, and I’m surprised no one has mentioned this, but to use Arimidex at this point is useless. The Arimidex will prevent estrogen by stopping the CONVERSION from Test. If the estrogen is already there, it’s too late. Arimidex will not stop estrogen from attaching itself to the receptor. Your only safe bet is Nolvadex for this.
The B6 is something that’s been recommended to me. There are numerous studies beside these few mentioned here. I know a few guys that swear they have had rapid reversal of the start tren gyno. This so called tren gyno may have never come if left alone. I’m taking it as a precaution. The cases of gyno I’ve heard of started with itchy, sensitive nipples which gave plenty time for treatment.
Here’s the poop form AF:
Suppression of Lactation:
When the mother chooses not to breast feed or the baby is lost, suppression of lactation may be required. Initially the breasts get engorged, however in the absence of suckling further milk production stops on its own. Firm support to the breasts is helpful in reducing the discomfort. Manual expression is not very helpful as it promotes further milk secretion. Estrogens in high doses can suppress lactation, however there are side effects and the risk of venous thrombosis, hence these are not recommended. Bromocryptine, a dopamine agonist, given 2.5 mg twice a day for 14 days can suppress lactation by producing a fall in prolactin levels. This therapy is expensive, has side effects and there may be rebound lactation once the drug is stopped. FDA no longer approves it. Pyridoxine ? Vitamin B6, given 200 mg three times a day for 5-7 days is quite effective in suppressing lactation and the drug has no side effects.
Got Wood? note : adding Bromo to your cycle only adds to the potential anabolic cascade, and potentially negative drug interactions. In medicine B6 is supposed to be as effective as Bromo. Plus vitamin B6 has few side effects.
Here are a few of many studies supporting the use of Vitamin B6 in reducing prolactin:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6
Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.
Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.
A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone GH and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects. Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone LH, follicle stimulating hormone FSH and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of GH secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern. These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine.
N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5
Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.
Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.
Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8
[Influence of administration of pyridoxine on circadian rhythm of plasma ACTH, cortisol prolactin and somatotropin in normal subjects]
[Article in Italian]
Barletta C, Sellini M, Bartoli A, Bigi C, Buzzetti R, Giovannini C.
The influence of vitamin B6 in a dosage of 300 mg X 2 in 24 hrs, on circadian rhythm of plasmatic ACTH, cortisol, prolactin and somatotropin have been studied in 10 normal women. After vitamin B6 24 hrs pattern of ACTH and cortisol is unchanged; prolactin levels are slightly lower, in a statistically unsignificant proportion the night peak of growth hormone is higher in a statistically significant proportion (p. 0.05). The effect of vitamin B6 is likely to me mediated by dopaminergic receptors at hypothalamic level as previous studies by other Authors appear to prove.
Mass N quote: "Also, and I’m surprised no one has mentioned this, but to use Arimidex at this point is useless. The Arimidex will prevent estrogen by stopping the CONVERSION from Test. If the estrogen is already there, it’s too late.
I have to disagree. “Arimidex combats the kind of breast cancer that thrives on estrogen. One of the hormones produced by the adrenal gland is converted to a form of estrogen by an enzyme called aromatase. Arimidex suppresses this enzyme and thereby reduces the level of estrogen circulating in the body.” HMMM?
However, the point was mentioned earlier. The funny thing about Arimidex is that is has been effective at reducing gyno related problems deep into a cycle. A few of my friends have used it during the end of their cycle when they started to experience gyno probs and by using arimidex @ 1mg/day for a week they were able to clear it right up. That may sound unusual to many on this forum but it worked for them. The SMART way to handle the situation is PREVENTION. Sacrifice a fraction of the gains or get some nips. It’s up to the user of course.
I am having a very slight gyno issue. I am running Test Eth at 400 mg/wk and dbol at 25 mg/day. I am now subsequently taking Arimidex at 1cc/day, and Clomid at 100 mg/day. It is only the second day that I started the anti-e’s, but my condition has yet to improve. Basically do you think these drugs will be able to clear up my begininng stage of gyno, or do I need some Nolvadex? I realize I should have been using the Arimidex the whole time, and I really don’t know why I wasn’t. Any input would be great.