T Nation

My Experience with TRT and HCG. Seeking Advise, Please!


#1

I started TRT a few months ago because at 56 years old I had libido on the low side (suddenly) and erectile dysfunction (also suddenly), I wasn´t sure if because a new medicament I took for reducing the blood preasure or why (I stop with it, Almodipino) but I also discovered I had low testosterone (around 300 ng/dl) (range: 241 to 827) , low free testosterone and E2 high. My sleep was bad too, and had muscular loss (´though in good weight).

After 3 months, taking Cipionate 250 every two weeks, the new blood test showed I reach 1500 (range: 241 to 827) ng/dl in testosterone, and 36 Free Testosterone!

Unfortunally though I was taking Tamoxifeno my E2 went up too (140).

My body improved a lot, I was just swimming along (first time in my life), and got almost “no fat” anywhere (I measure 16% body fat). Sex was good, hard as rock, libido improved ´though not in extreme, sleep got better too, I didn´t feel any side effect at all, no problem.

Also blood preasure went from 14 -15/9 to 11/7 thanks to the swimming, and perhaps the treatment too (that was a possitive and unexpected result too).

After those three months the doctor put me on HCG (75 ul every two weeks, first time 150), Clomid 50 mg (10 per month) and Arimidex (1 mg, every day)…, he wanted to add something to lower the cholesterol, I have it slightly high, Total 220, he suggested Ezatrol 10 mg, but said that Crestor was OK too (I don´t have money and Crestor is much cheaper than the one he suggested).

After 45 days with the new treatment (still have one more month to go with this “regime”), my body got a little softer but still looks very good, I have no side effects, but my sex drive went to cero and I have problems with erection, I mean today it happened that after I took one 20 mg cialis pill…NOTHING!! (not even a headache) when up to some months ago I used to take a quarter of it and I was as a rock for 5 days straight!!

That´s pretty devastating because that was the main reason I am doing all this!

So I don´t know if could be the CRESTOR (´cause some people mention, and even the laboratory that make them, these two things, low libido end erectile dysfunction, as a side effect), or could be anything else. I don´t have easy access to the doctor until I see him in a month.

Any suggestions, advise, etc. What could be a problem?

Thanks!


#2

You have a lot going on here. Looks like you answered some of the questions, plz look through the list and answer the stuff you haven’t already. If you have bloodwork from multiple times, post them all.

Your doctor put you on straight TRT to start, then changed you over to a therapy for someone with secondary hypogonadism. If it does work (your prior bloodwork can indicate if you are a candidate) it might take some time to come back after 3 monhs of injecting.

-age
-height
-waist
-weight
-describe body and facial hair
-describe where you carry fat and how changed
-health conditions, symptoms [history]
-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever
– real dangers! see this http://propeciahelp.com/overview49
-lab results with ranges
-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]
-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]
-testes ache, ever, with a fever?
-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed


#3

-age 56
-height 5´5
-waist: 33 inches
-weight 143 pounds
-describe body and facial hair: Mesomorph, have plenty beard
-describe where you carry fat and how changed, my fat was only superficial, a little in belly, but now is gone, only superficial fat, basically I´ve got HARDER.
-health conditions, symptoms [history] health condition was/is good, symptoms: lost libido, erection and problem to sleep.
-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever: NONE ever
– real dangers! see this http://propeciahelp.com/overview492 (this page is not display)
-lab results with ranges

Testosterone: originally 300 then 1550 (range: 241 to 827)
Estrogens: originally 80 then 140
Free Test: 6 originally & then 36
-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]. I do no diet, really, I don´t eat too much, but eat as much as I want. Not following any bodybuilder or any kind of diet!

-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]: I don´t train with weights, I started (first time in my life, ´though I knew how to swim) swimming 3 times a week for about an hour.


#4

AND thaks a lot for the answer, gonadthebarbarian!

Best regards!


#5

Does it say “Estrogens” or “Estradiol” (E2) ?

Do you have any of these? Please include lab ranges, e.g. TT: 340 (300-1280)

Also please include lab ranges for the tests you have already provided.

E2
prolactin
LH/FSH
CBC
hematocrit
fasting cholesterol
fasting glucose
AM cortisol [at 8AM please]


#6

originally is how I started, “then” after 3 months TRT:

Testosterone: originally 300 then 1550 (range: 241 to 827)
E2: originally 80 then 140 (Men up to 62)
Free Test: 6 originally & then 36 (between 40 and 59 years old: range 6.6 - 30 pg/ml)

LH originally 3.93 then 0.1 (range 1.51 to 9.3)
FSH originally 5.26 mU/ml - don´t have info for after (range 1.4 to 18.1)
CBC ?
hematocrit originally 50 then 55 (range 40 to 51)
Cholesterol:
Total originally 2.23 gl then 2.28 (considered intermediate, until 2.00 normal)
HDL originally 0.41 then 0.39 (until 0.40 considered low, up 0.40 normal)
LDL originally1.55 finish 1.49 (over 1.0 considered Intermediate)
VLDL originally 0.27 finish 0.40 (range 0.07 to 0.55)
Coc. Cholesterol /HDL originally 5.44 then 5.85 (range 0 to 5)
Glucose originally at 0.74 gl then 0.68 (range 0.6 to 1.1)

AM cortisol [at 8AM please] ?

The information missing, is missing…hahaha!

Thanks!


#7

damn doctors

50mg T cyp/eth twice a week
0.5mg anastrozole at time of injections
250iu hCG SC EOD

That works.

with infrequent injecions, you can get any lab result you want by chaning lab timing

on

On the road and hard to post, so very brief.

Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.


#8

Thanks for the answer, KSman!

QUESTION 1: The 250iu hCG SC EOD you suggest is how often?

QUESTION 2: Not saying he is right or wrong (I know nothing about the subject), but Rich Piana says he doesn´t agree with Testosterone together with HCG if I´m not mistaken. What are your thoughts about this?

2:29 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkZcuPIIvjM

Thanks again!


#9

Could it be your arimidex at 1mg every day is too much???
That causes a rapid decrease in E2… and that instability could haves killed libido…
follow KSman’s protocol asap and give it a month to see how you feel…


#10

Answer #1: 250iu hCG SC EOD = 250iu of hCG subcutaneous every other day

Answer #2: Rich Piana isn’t on TRT. granted, he may know his stuff, but it’s not yours, mine, or anyone elses. Go with what works for you.


#11

Dear Philip 3_14 and mwhities, thanks so much for your answers.

Have you seen the video at the exact point I posted? (2:29 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkZcuPIIvjM )

Definetely, he is not doing TRT, I know.

Thanks once again!


#12

Well, it does make sense.

I’m going to try and get hCG for my mood and memory. As I read, it helps with that. I’m having major comprehension difficulties.


#13

Damn, nice catch, I completely missed that.

Yeah, 1mg ED is the absolute highest I have ever heard of.


#14

Guys, my info that might help some.

I can only tell straight forward how has been the effect of me, i can´t discuss stuff since I´m not knowledgable on the subject.

All the doctor gave me worked out, with the HCG, Clomid (HCG 75 ul every two weeks, Clomid 50 mg (10 per month) and Arimidex 1 mg, every day), the sex hiatus I had was just a matter of couple of days (when I wrote), I had great sex after those days.

After 3 months of the previous (HCG/Clomid), my Testosterone was still pretty good and high 907 ng/dl (241-827), my free test 20 (pretty high and good), my hematocrit just at the top limit 51 (40-51), my E2 still high even with Arimidex 1mg every day, 76 (when maximun should be 62, ´though it went down from 140).

I HAD NO SIDE EFFECTS OF ANY KIND.

So the doctor recommended now a Clomid only teraphy, to see how it´s my reaction to it, and since my Testosterone and Free Test is still great, also to see if the E2 comes down.

Guys, now with JUST with Clomid 10 days per month (plus taking Arimidex 1mg per day) I´m sex beast (more than ever), hahahaha. Feel good, etc.

Body wise: Taking testosterone was my hardest, but the post cycle with HCG/Clomid, and the one with Clomid I´m doing now is just ONLY a bit less hard, I was able to retain allmost all my gains, really difficult to notice any difference. Body weight is the same.

A GREAT NEWS: Using Crestor I was able to reach for the first time in my life correct numbers of Cholesterol, I¨m at 170 now (on the good side!), and the top limit is 200. Amazing, i tried different things for years in the past (been Fluvastatine last one) and never were under 220. Also, no high lipids!

I mentioned the Doctor some of the things suggested here, his answer was that the reaction of the bodys are always different, and that is just a bit of trial plus experience on his side (didn´t use any of these words, is just my VERSION of what he said, hahah), and he is “tayloring” the “teraphy” specifically for me.

Thank you all for your answers and I hope my experience helps others too. I will keep you updated through this journey, all I can say that my body just swimming, at 57, is like most 20-30 year old guys would like to have (by no means a bodybuilder look, but better than swimmers, ahahha). The “problem”: all my age women, and much younger look very odd (old) next to me, hahah, like they could be my aunts.


KSMan, Did My E2 Crash?
#15

Just keeping a log of my “maiden voyage” through TRT (started 8 months ago).

After 2 months of Clomid (10 pils per month), and Aridimidex (the, what´s seems to be, unusual dose of 1mg per day) my results are really good and in some department better.

RESULTS:
testosterone 810 ng/dl (241-827)
Free Test 18 pg.ml

(let me remind you I didn´t take any Testosterone inyection since 5 months)

The great news is that my E2, which was always really high, now is normal

EVOLUTION OF MY E2 (reference, the top E2 is 60)

pre TRT: 81
3 months cycle with Testosterone: 147
3 months HCG, Clomid, Arimidex: 76
2 months Clomid, Arimidex: 46

Last 5 months I was taking 1 mg daily dose.

All my other readings are good too.

The new cycle now suggested by the doctor is Testosterone 350 a month, just one dose per month.

I asked him about cutting the dose in smaller quantities, peaks and lows, etc. he said he thinks is the same…and you know, so far he has always been right with me.

Also sugested to TRY Arimidex, 1 mg every two days.

During previous 5 months as I mentioned, had 1mg per day with no side effects.

Thanks!


#16

For anyone reading along, this is a very odd case of a guy that really overproduces e2. 1mg of arimidex a day would most likely crash anyone else.

Has your doctor looked into the reasons why you might be producing so much e2?

@KSman have you heard of any e2 producing tumors?


#17

Gonad, are you asking me?

No, the doctor wasn´t surprised or mentioned it. Again, I can just tell you my numbers, how I feel, etc.

Right now, with half the dose (1 mg every other day), I feel perfectly fine too. I¨m at my 20th day…(should be doing it 90 at least). The difference between just taking testosterone alone and testosterone with Clomid (like I¨m taking now) is that my testicules now are not schrinking, my skin is not greasy (it was never very much, but with clomid less), my nose is not running at all. My erections are stronger and sex drive is great.

So far is my favorite combination (testosterone with Clomid).

Energy, etc. has always been very good.

Best regards!


#18

This “have you heard of …” is so lame. Have you studied the stickies?
Technical terms like EOD are defined there.

I suggested a protocol, did you ask for that?

You should not stack SERM+hCG and SERM dose is too high, creating high T–>E2 inside the testes were anastrozole cannot work. That is your situation and its is explained in the stickies. The stickies are the main method of knowledge transfer here. There is also a sticky re finding a TRT doc, your doctor is an idiot.


#19

KSman,

Sometimes I¨m not to sure about what are you talking about…

For example when you said: “have you heard” (if it is mentioned without the complete or partial quote is difficult to understand, man).

I read you “stickies”, several times, yes.

As you probably know there are other languajes besides English so sometimes is hard to follow all the nomenclatures you create like “UNCLE”, “KAOS”, etc. anyway, I just speak 5 languajes fluently, so I´m pretty limited by them (my mother tonge is Spanish).

I´m not sure why you talk so bad about my doctor, all my simtoms are fantastic now, my E2 is normal now, my testosterone is very high, I don´t feel any side effect. I have a lot of strenght, my sex and libido are great. My cholesterol is low, my tension is great, etc…I excel in every departament…

In all 8 months I´ve been doing the TRT I only had 2 days “I wasn¨t able to make it hard” (this was the orinal worry, what started my thread).

I¨m just describing my treatment and results IN ME?

Best Regards!

P.S.: EOD as far as I know stands for:

End Of Data
Explosive Ordnance Disposal
End Of Discusion
Event Of Default

and I´m sure many other meanings …

In other languajes we use the complete terms unles we talked about JR from “Dallas”, that way there are no misundertandings or questions…


#20

Like I said, things like EOD, TT, FT, E2 are defined in the advice for new guys sticky. What more can I do?

E2 does not produce tumors.
You need to properly manage E2.
I explained why this is not working with SERM+hCG.

This is total madness, insanity: "The new cycle now suggested by the doctor is Testosterone 350 a month, just one dose per month. " With huge changes in your T levels, anastrozole cannot match the moving T levels.

There really is not much that I can do to help you at this point. And I have never said that before.