May have already been said but row,wide grip,and deads through and through good look man!
go isodynamic for a few weeks
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dnlcdstn wrote:
Hey everybody, I need some advice on back training. I’ve tried barbell rows, dumbbell rows, numerous cable rows, reverse fly’s, weighted pull ups, and lat pull downs. I have average back development, but not enough to satisfy. I can’t seem to get sore either. My reps have ranged from as low as 6 and as high as 30 and tempo changed as well. What works for you guys?
This is probably the fifth thread on back work this month.
Check out the T-Cell Alhpa roundtable on back training… Exercise selection etc is all in there.
Also, what numbers are you putting up on your back exercises?
What does your actual routine look like?
Does scapular retraction ring a bell?
Sorry, I should prolly look around the forums more before posting.
I do back on two seperate days. Day (1) Pull ups (sometimes weighted), lat pulldowns with a different grip than my pull ups, and a pull over variation. I also do military press, db shoulder press, and shrugs this day.
Next day is legs. Day (2) barbell row, db row, cable row, and a reverse fly. This is also my chest day. I guess it’s antagonistic training for the most part. I’m strong with my back, but it’s not as defined as other parts and it rarely gets sore.
[/quote]
I would counsel against having a “width” and a “thickness” day. If you do 3 width movements, you’re going to be good on the first one and performance on the other two is likely shit. Plus it means that your width musculature is totally fried…
Even though your other back day is thickness-centered, you still use your lats etc a lot on all kinds of rows, and rear delts are used in any event at least to some degree on both width an thickness moves.
So ultimately you are really only getting in 2-3 exercises with good performance total over the week, the rest just strain your recovery.
My suggestion would be to train width and thickness during both workouts, and limit amount of movements to 2 main moves for the back and perhaps a rehab/prehab/rear delt thing afterwards… But don’t overdo it if you’re training back twice a week.
Example:
Back session 1 (you do delts before that, but not rear delts, same session)
-Rack “Chins” (width)
-Rack Pulls (thickness, done with scap retraction after each lockout)
Back Session 2 (you do chest before this during the same session)
-HS Pulldowns (or whatever you want, just make sure it hits the lats etc and not your biceps)
-Kroc Rows or HS low rows or some such (note: scapulae are retracted as part of the positive of each rep, and you reverse that on the negative until your shoulders are in neutral or so. This is important to learn.)
(alternative: rows first, then some prehab or rear delt movement and no actual width exercise)
And use set/rep schemes which allow you to make good progress…
Also learn how to keep your biceps out of your back exercises as much as possible.
Obviously can’t be avoided when doing narrow-grip chins and such, but you get the point.
Rows are no bicep exercise, even though many 170 lb people are going to cry bloody murder now.
Do not “curl” the weights towards you. Your forearm during a Kroc row etc is held relatively perpendicular to the floor. You must not start the row/chin by flexing your bis/activating your bis. You start by retracting your scapulae, pulling your shoulders back with your rear delts, mid-back etc, hands are like hooks and elbows come to your sides. Reverse on the negative.
This is kind of hard to explain, sorry about that. It’s something that everyone needs to discover for themselves to really “get it”.
I still say OP should post some pics, probably clear some things up.
[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
Use straps and take your thumbs out of the grip. [/quote]
That doesn’t really take away the fact that the elbow is gonna flex man. It’ll take out grip for sure and possibly some brachialis involvement if you’re using a pronated grip, but thats about it.
Just my two cents. Probably you are going in for too much weight at the expense of form. Scrap the pulldowns. Concentrate on a row, on pull-ups/chins (first reach 15 solid reps then start adding weights) and yes the deadlift. If you are using very low reps, mess around with slightly higher reps n the 10-12 rep range. My point is, concentrate on a few exercises and get better at those.
[quote]bams_101 wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
Use straps and take your thumbs out of the grip.
That doesn’t really take away the fact that the elbow is gonna flex man. It’ll take out grip for sure and possibly some brachialis involvement if you’re using a pronated grip, but thats about it.[/quote]
Well it works, so I’m not sure what you are getting at.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
This is kind of hard to explain, sorry about that. It’s something that everyone needs to discover for themselves to really “get it”.
[/quote]
Tell me about it. I was trying to teach my beginner friend how to do a barbell row…Was way to complex for him to get down no matter how hard I tried helping him. Moved onto db rows and he still couldn’t get the form right. (he has real long lanky limbs, 6’3 and a whoppin 160 lbs !)
Ultimately ended up doing seated rows and worked great for him
[quote]Carlitosway wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
This is kind of hard to explain, sorry about that. It’s something that everyone needs to discover for themselves to really “get it”.
Tell me about it. I was trying to teach my beginner friend how to do a barbell row…Was way to complex for him to get down no matter how hard I tried helping him. Moved onto db rows and he still couldn’t get the form right. (he has real long lanky limbs, 6’3 and a whoppin 160 lbs !)
Ultimately ended up doing seated rows and worked great for him
[/quote]
lol, so funny how different people really are. I can’t cable row at all. I would be better spent doing curls, but I can DB row like a mofo, and have it hit my back all day.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Chin and Dead like a motherfucker.[/quote]
Agreed
If you cannot grow with heavy deadlifts, pull ups and dumbell rows then Im not sure what anyone can tell you. Deadlifts have made my back grow like crazy. But you have to go heavy.
Find out how to retract your scapula on rowing movements, and how to pull the weight with your lats on pulldown/up movements. If you never figure out how to flex your back muscles you won’t get them to grow as much.
Find a few good moves once you get the “feel” down and get really strong on them in whatever rep range you grow best from and eat a lot. Also another back exercise i like that i tried recently was decline dumbell pullovers. Hits the lats in a different way than rows or chins. I feel it in my lats more near my scapula.
The number ONE thing to do when a certain bodypart doesnt seem to be coming around is to make sure your body is functioning correctly enough to be able to do said movement correctly. For instance if you are trying to add size to your legs but your hamstrings are very tight, you need to address that issue first before you go worrying about a bunch of BS technique and exercise crap you dont have the capacity to do anyway.
So I’ll simply ask you to do this. Lie on the ground and put both arms straight up over your head, trying to lie them down on the floor. You should be relaxed, not forcing yourself into this position.
If your arms do not lie flat, and if they are held up significantly, you probably have soft tissue problems that need addressing before you will be able to make progress.
Give this a try and see.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
The number ONE thing to do when a certain bodypart doesnt seem to be coming around is to make sure your body is functioning correctly enough to be able to do said movement correctly. For instance if you are trying to add size to your legs but your hamstrings are very tight, you need to address that issue first before you go worrying about a bunch of BS technique and exercise crap you dont have the capacity to do anyway.
So I’ll simply ask you to do this. Lie on the ground and put both arms straight up over your head, trying to lie them down on the floor. You should be relaxed, not forcing yourself into this position.
If your arms do not lie flat, and if they are held up significantly, you probably have soft tissue problems that need addressing before you will be able to make progress.
Give this a try and see.[/quote]
Lawl…I’m so going to do this. I’m pretty sure my arms wont get anywhere near the floor and my back definitely has no problems growing.
Hey man,
Chin variations(read the Poliquin article)
DB Rows TO HIP…no fucking BS swing twisting of the spine etc.
Rope rowing to neck.
GJ
[quote]josh86 wrote:
Shadowzz4 wrote:
The number ONE thing to do when a certain bodypart doesnt seem to be coming around is to make sure your body is functioning correctly enough to be able to do said movement correctly. For instance if you are trying to add size to your legs but your hamstrings are very tight, you need to address that issue first before you go worrying about a bunch of BS technique and exercise crap you dont have the capacity to do anyway.
So I’ll simply ask you to do this. Lie on the ground and put both arms straight up over your head, trying to lie them down on the floor. You should be relaxed, not forcing yourself into this position.
If your arms do not lie flat, and if they are held up significantly, you probably have soft tissue problems that need addressing before you will be able to make progress.
Give this a try and see.
Lawl…I’m so going to do this. I’m pretty sure my arms wont get anywhere near the floor and my back definitely has no problems growing.[/quote]
Josh86 did you try this? Im curious to see what you see. There is a difference between you and the OP however. You have enough muscle in the teres major and lats specifically that they might not passively allow this movement, not to say they lack ROM when lifting, just that there is enough tissue there with enough passive resistance to make this test not as accurate.
For what it’s worth:
My lats never quite wanted to grow until I started to really focus on the stretch part on things like pulldowns, rack chins etc. I mean a pretty brutal stretch, fairly heavy weights, 10-12 reps.
Variations on the B2 and C movements found here helped too: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION .
Other than that, you really can’t go wrong with rack deads, IMO.