T Nation

Muslims Turning On Terrorists

There have been signs of hope lately that, admittedly I glossed over originally; but I shouldn’t have. The name of the thread isn’t exactly correct mainly because I presume these people to be Muslims based on where they live but some may not be. Chances are high that they are. I want to bring to light some good things that these people are doing to clean their own house.

The Lebanese Army went on the offensive recently snuffing out terrorists and terror cells in their land. I applaud them for that. The link is just one story of many but here ya go:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,280955,00.html

Here’s another link about people in Iraq turning on Al Kay-duh:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/07/penhaul.iraq/index.html

These are good things. If the terrorists lose their public support they are all but finished. Got more? Let’s here it!

[quote]pat36 wrote:
The Lebanese Army went on the offensive recently snuffing out terrorists and terror cells in their land. I applaud them for that. The link is just one story of many but here ya go:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,280955,00.html

Here’s another link about people in Iraq turning on Al Kay-duh:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/07/penhaul.iraq/index.html

These are good things. If the terrorists lose their public support they are all but finished. Got more? Let’s here it! [/quote]

Not to downplay these achievements, but as far as I’m concerned, terrorists have never had public support in the Islamic world. Now, I can only speak about the countries I know best, i.e: Arab countries. Pakistani treatment of OBL might differ.

The problem, you and I are gonna have agreeing on, is when categorizing someone as terrorist. For example, you’ll probably consider Hezbollah as a terrorist group (being American and all), but i the real world, they’re a grassroots resistance movement. So, until Israeli jets stop violating the Lebanese airspace, Hezbollah will continue to have the support of the common Lebanese.

To sum up, and to answer your question, terrorists never had the support of the people to start with. I never met a soul that supported the acts of, say Al-Qaeda or any other group that target civilians. Of course, I know little to no Muslim that don’t support the right of the Palestinians to resist the occupation. You, on the other hand, will probably dismiss them as terrorists because they have no tanks and F-16s and resort to blowing themselves up.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Hezbollah as a terrorist group (being American and all), but i the real world, they’re a grassroots resistance movement.
[/quote]

If someone should doubt lixy is a fanatic, one needs only to read that sentence.

I’m disappointed.

JeffR

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
The Lebanese Army went on the offensive recently snuffing out terrorists and terror cells in their land. I applaud them for that. The link is just one story of many but here ya go:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,280955,00.html

Here’s another link about people in Iraq turning on Al Kay-duh:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/07/penhaul.iraq/index.html

These are good things. If the terrorists lose their public support they are all but finished. Got more? Let’s here it!

Not to downplay these achievements, but as far as I’m concerned, terrorists have never had public support in the Islamic world. Now, I can only speak about the countries I know best, i.e: Arab countries. Pakistani treatment of OBL might differ.

The problem, you and I are gonna have agreeing on, is when categorizing someone as terrorist. For example, you’ll probably consider Hezbollah as a terrorist group (being American and all), but i the real world, they’re a grassroots resistance movement. So, until Israeli jets stop violating the Lebanese airspace, Hezbollah will continue to have the support of the common Lebanese.

To sum up, and to answer your question, terrorists never had the support of the people to start with. I never met a soul that supported the acts of, say Al-Qaeda or any other group that target civilians. Of course, I know little to no Muslim that don’t support the right of the Palestinians to resist the occupation. You, on the other hand, will probably dismiss them as terrorists because they have no tanks and F-16s and resort to blowing themselves up.[/quote]

This is true. Terrorists are not literally fundamentalists or true muslims. There is a growing number of muslims attempting to understand the religion for themselves by reading english interpretations or attempting to understand the Quran and Hadith (prophetic traditions) on their own.

This creates problems as the only people who should be authorized to advise and issue fatwas (rulings) are those who:

  • Are extremely knowledgeable in classical Arabic and ‘Balagha’ or Arabic metaphorical study, necessary to understand the Quran and Hadith.

  • Have memorized the Quran.

  • Have memorized the authentic Hadith and their chains of narration.

  • Have other faculties of knowledge such as mathematics, sciences etc.

  • A desire to learn and gain knowledge to find the truth and to please Allah (God).

This used to be characteristic of Islamic scholars back during the beginning of Islam. I could name a ton like Imam Malik, Imam Ibn Qayyim etc.

Unfortunately, finding sheikhs and muftis like this now is RARE. Before however, they were quite common.

This is the reason why most kids nowadays are going towards terrorism. People with political agendas warp what little grasp of meaning they have of Islam, and snare these kids in to do their bidding.

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
The Lebanese Army went on the offensive recently snuffing out terrorists and terror cells in their land. I applaud them for that. The link is just one story of many but here ya go:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,280955,00.html

Here’s another link about people in Iraq turning on Al Kay-duh:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/07/penhaul.iraq/index.html

These are good things. If the terrorists lose their public support they are all but finished. Got more? Let’s here it!

Not to downplay these achievements, but as far as I’m concerned, terrorists have never had public support in the Islamic world. Now, I can only speak about the countries I know best, i.e: Arab countries. Pakistani treatment of OBL might differ.

The problem, you and I are gonna have agreeing on, is when categorizing someone as terrorist. For example, you’ll probably consider Hezbollah as a terrorist group (being American and all), but i the real world, they’re a grassroots resistance movement. So, until Israeli jets stop violating the Lebanese airspace, Hezbollah will continue to have the support of the common Lebanese.

To sum up, and to answer your question, terrorists never had the support of the people to start with. I never met a soul that supported the acts of, say Al-Qaeda or any other group that target civilians. Of course, I know little to no Muslim that don’t support the right of the Palestinians to resist the occupation. You, on the other hand, will probably dismiss them as terrorists because they have no tanks and F-16s and resort to blowing themselves up.[/quote]

Welp, that settles it for me, you are officially a terrorist sympathizer who only regards a human life as valuable enough only to forward your own agaenda.

Hezbolah is a terrorist organization who take the lives of innocent people and drag their own country men into battle by provoking war with Israel. They are animals and muderers. The Lebenees don’t need Hizbolah they have a fucking army.

Hezbolah is a radical islamic terror group who builds their terror network on the backs of the poor by drawing sympathy through handouts.
Hamas is a terror group, Fatah is a terror group. The worst thing that could happen to Hamas is if Palistine were to become it’s own autonmous country.

The second that happens, their murderous tactics and lively hood are over. Why do you think they will do anything to sabotage peace with Israel? Because their existance depends on it.
Lixy, I thought you were decent and even moderate.

You are not, you’re a jerk. You are not interested in peace because you share ideology with the worst of the worst. If you are going to do that, have some balls and join the fight. Don’t sit their like a chicken enjoying the blanket of protection that Sweden provides you and spew your hate for hours on end and recruit for you cause.

You are really just one degree of separation from the assholes you sympathize with. May God have mercy on you.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Welp, that settles it for me, you are officially a terrorist sympathizer who only regards a human life as valuable enough only to forward your own agaenda.
[/quote]
what agenda is that, pray tell?

Lixy how are you going to back peddle out of this one? here is some advice throw up some terrible thing America did 50-150 years ago and run out of the argument.

[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
This is the reason why most kids nowadays are going towards terrorism. People with political agendas warp what little grasp of meaning they have of Islam, and snare these kids in to do their bidding.
[/quote]

I’m gonna have to disagree with that analysis. Yes, clearly the quality (and relative quantity) of Muslim scholars has deteriorated over time, but that’s not the reason kids are getting into terrorism. They’re turning to the dark side primarily because of desperation.

Let’s face it, some of the Muslim world lives in abject poverty and someone who’s got nothing to lose is more prone to sacrifice his/her life for what they think is heaven (by my interpretation, they’re going straight to hell for killing innocents and commiting suicide, but that’s besides the point).

Another reason would be the change Muslims societies have gone thru (endured?) due to globalisation. When a chick in Cairo or Algiers dresses up like a slut, that’s bound to attract attention and get exploited by some doomsday charlatan who will claim the world has is close to its end.

Impressionable kids are then drawn to what they view as salvation and join a so-called “Jihad”. Add to that the fact that the majority of Arab country got their independence in the last half of century to find themselves economically neo-colonized.

Those countries are governed by some ruthless dictator backed by the West, and that adds to the perceived notion that Judeo-Christian societies are trying to destroy Islam. Of course, Israel and more recently Bush add to the sentiment that a crusade is taking place. It’s actually pretty easy to see how Bush’s “war on terror” exacerbated the problem.

Just look at the frequency of terrorist attacks prior to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and after. The correlation is almost perfect. Now, one must not overlook another major component of “Islamic” terrorism today, and that is, as you correctly point out, the lack of education of 2nd, 3rd generation Muslims born in the West.

Most don’t speak Arabic and have a really hard time reconciliating their origins with their surroundings. Those fall prey to evil-doers who portray themselves as erudite in Islam, when in fact, they got it all backwards.

I got a little carried out. The point I was trying to make is that, while a non-Arabic speaker should not try to interpret the texts, Islam highly encourages everyone to learn as much as they can on different domains then interpret the Quran for themselves.

Al-Qaeda wasn’t born out of a guy who knew nothing about Arabic or the Quran. On the contrary. Al-Zawahiri is quite knowlegeable on both. He just happens to be a zealot who thinks he’s executing the will of God by blowing up innocents. His interpretation of the Islamic message is so wrong I can’t even think about where to start.

Anyway, back to the point. It’s not the lack of scholars that’s the problem. It’s rather a combination of economical, sociological and the hijack of some legitimate causes that’s at the root of terrorism. A kid trying to interpret the Quran from an english translation is not the problem.

It’s rather the existence of some radicals that brainwash them. In fact, most terrorists today speak perfect Arabic and memorized the Quran. But they probably never sat down to give their master’s interpretation a second thought. That’s where it gets dangerous. And that’s why Islam insists on not having central authorities to avoid such abuses.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Shoebolt wrote:
This is the reason why most kids nowadays are going towards terrorism. People with political agendas warp what little grasp of meaning they have of Islam, and snare these kids in to do their bidding.

I’m gonna have to disagree with that analysis. Yes, clearly the quality (and relative quantity) of Muslim scholars has deteriorated over time, but that’s not the reason kids are getting into terrorism. They’re turning to the dark side primarily because of desperation.

Let’s face it, some of the Muslim world lives in abject poverty and someone who’s got nothing to lose is more prone to sacrifice his/her life for what they think is heaven (by my interpretation, they’re going straight to hell for killing innocents and commiting suicide, but that’s besides the point).

Another reason would be the change Muslims societies have gone thru (endured?) due to globalisation. When a chick in Cairo or Algiers dresses up like a slut, that’s bound to attract attention and get exploited by some doomsday charlatan who will claim the world has is close to its end.

Impressionable kids are then drawn to what they view as salvation and join a so-called “Jihad”. Add to that the fact that the majority of Arab country got their independence in the last half of century to find themselves economically neo-colonized.

Those countries are governed by some ruthless dictator backed by the West, and that adds to the perceived notion that Judeo-Christian societies are trying to destroy Islam. Of course, Israel and more recently Bush add to the sentiment that a crusade is taking place. It’s actually pretty easy to see how Bush’s “war on terror” exacerbated the problem.

Just look at the frequency of terrorist attacks prior to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and after. The correlation is almost perfect. Now, one must not overlook another major component of “Islamic” terrorism today, and that is, as you correctly point out, the lack of education of 2nd, 3rd generation Muslims born in the West.

Most don’t speak Arabic and have a really hard time reconciliating their origins with their surroundings. Those fall prey to evil-doers who portray themselves as erudite in Islam, when in fact, they got it all backwards.

I got a little carried out. The point I was trying to make is that, while a non-Arabic speaker should not try to interpret the texts, Islam highly encourages everyone to learn as much as they can on different domains then interpret the Quran for themselves.

Al-Qaeda wasn’t born out of a guy who knew nothing about Arabic or the Quran. On the contrary. Al-Zawahiri is quite knowlegeable on both. He just happens to be a zealot who thinks he’s executing the will of God by blowing up innocents. His interpretation of the Islamic message is so wrong I can’t even think about where to start.

Anyway, back to the point. It’s not the lack of scholars that’s the problem. It’s rather a combination of economical, sociological and the hijack of some legitimate causes that’s at the root of terrorism. A kid trying to interpret the Quran from an english translation is not the problem.

It’s rather the existence of some radicals that brainwash them. In fact, most terrorists today speak perfect Arabic and memorized the Quran. But they probably never sat down to give their master’s interpretation a second thought. That’s where it gets dangerous. And that’s why Islam insists on not having central authorities to avoid such abuses.[/quote]

Trust me bro, ask a sheikh or someone who is amazing at their Arabic and you will realise how easy it is to misunderstand a verse due to omitting just one or two words or altering their meaning in some way.

But still, you are correct in saying that some kids do it out of desperation due to societal values changing and political issues. It’s probably a contribution of both (My point and yours). However you must realise that if the faith and Islam of the kids is good then the desperation is put to productive, Islamically allowed use.

Additionally, I may be wrong on the number of good scholars declining, but I didn’t say that was the main reason. It is certain that the majority of Muslims prefer to live by their own standards of Islam nowadays, what they hear or what they want to understand or their parents’ standards, instead of following the example of the Prophet Muhammad and the Companions.

Plus nationalism is a terrible thing, because you blow up people for your country, while justifying it as being a religious cause. Nationalism is a very iffy issue in Islam.

[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
Additionally, I may be wrong on the number of good scholars declining, but I didn’t say that was the main reason.[/quote]

I must have misunderstood then.

Excellent point.