T Nation

Muslim? Thoughts on Arab World

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
I can not say that I agree with everything America has done since it’s inception, but do you think the world would have been better if America was replaced with the Nazis or the Russian Communists as world leader?[/quote]

I specifically said post-WWII, so I believe Nazis are out of the question here. The Commie threat was obviously overrated. There was no way they could have emerged victors from the cold war.

The US knew that; Numerous disclosed CIA documents attest to that fact. But anyway, I believe that concentration of power is bad in any context. The world would be a much better place if there were other powers to balance US hegemony.

What I’m trying to achieve through what probably appears to some as vociferous condemnations of everything the US ever did, is for some to acknowledge that American foreign policy has ran amok and needs some serious reforming if one is remotely interested in moral or peace on Earth.

I believe in the democratic component of your political system (otherwise, I wouldn’t bother) and think that if enough Americans are willing to do something about it, things could change. Something you evidently cannot achieve in China or former-USSR. Accept my apologies if, as an American you felt offended by my posts. I’m just trying to make the world a better place.

This is one of the scariest post I ever came across; Are you implying that, somehow, you own the world or have an inherent right to determine its destiny?

I don’t see how Russia selling arms to some countries is related to the US gives away billions in military aid to Israel, but the answer is no.
The reason nobody is talking about the Russian atrocities is because the Russian leaders don’t go around claiming that they had “visions”, compare unnecessary carnage to “birth pangs” and most importantly, Russians restricted their military presence to neighboring countries. Leninism was an evil thing, no doubt about that. So is Maoism. What’s actually weird, is that most people around the world would sooner trust China than the US. That speaks volumes about the image and (lack of) credibility of America.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
I can not say that I agree with everything America has done since it’s inception, but do you think the world would have been better if America was replaced with the Nazis or the Russian Communists as world leader?

I specifically said post-WWII, so I believe Nazis are out of the question here. The Commie threat was obviously overrated. There was no way they could have emerged victors from the cold war.

The US knew that; Numerous disclosed CIA documents attest to that fact. But anyway, I believe that concentration of power is bad in any context. The world would be a much better place if there were other powers to balance US hegemony.

What I’m trying to achieve through what probably appears to some as vociferous condemnations of everything the US ever did, is for some to acknowledge that American foreign policy has ran amok and needs some serious reforming if one is remotely interested in moral or peace on Earth.

I believe in the democratic component of your political system (otherwise, I wouldn’t bother) and think that if enough Americans are willing to do something about it, things could change. Something you evidently cannot achieve in China or former-USSR. Accept my apologies if, as an American you felt offended by my posts. I’m just trying to make the world a better place.

We were fighting enemies (Nazi’s, Communists) that if they had won, would have devistated the world, and it was just as important for us to stop them, as it is for Palestinians to reclaim Palestine.

This is one of the scariest post I ever came across; Are you implying that, somehow, you own the world or have an inherent right to determine its destiny?

On another note, what do you think of Russian expansion into Muslim lands in the southern part of their country. They all used to be small Khanites but the Russians conquered them, though it took around 300 years to do so. You don’t hear anyone blasting the Russians for doing this. (except for the Chechen separtists) Is this because Russia arms Israel’s enemies?

I don’t see how Russia selling arms to some countries is related to the US gives away billions in military aid to Israel, but the answer is no.
The reason nobody is talking about the Russian atrocities is because the Russian leaders don’t go around claiming that they had “visions”, compare unnecessary carnage to “birth pangs” and most importantly, Russians restricted their military presence to neighboring countries. Leninism was an evil thing, no doubt about that. So is Maoism. What’s actually weird, is that most people around the world would sooner trust China than the US. That speaks volumes about the image and (lack of) credibility of America.[/quote]

You want to work for a better world? Fix the problems in the Arab world and with radical Islam…things you are a lot more familiar with.

America will do quite nicely by ignoring European wanna be college kids don’t you think? I know it may not appear so to you but nearly all of your posts bitch and moan about America. You seem to be able to blame America for just about anything, and have done so frequently. Don’t believe me, read your posts.

That’s why your credibility, lixy, on the subject is nil. I know you don’t see that but sadly it is apparent. Have you noticed that most of the regular posters dont’ bother with you anymore?

As to Russians you seem to have glossed over Cuba, Vietnam and Korea. Do you know what a honcho is? Ask a fighter pilot, they’ll tell you all about Russian “honcho’s” and what they operated all around the world.

I think you would trust China more then the US. YOu hardly speak for the world however. As a businessman who acutally does business in the place’s you talk about, China is not trusted by anyone. The risk in dealing with China is managed. That risk does not exist in the US which has a history of financial stability and respect for contracts and private property.

As to trusting the respective governments. Please spare me. Your global experience is severly limited, or skewed, if you think anyone in their right mind trusts the Chinese government over the US. China is tempting for those that are greedy but no adult would view them as trustworthy. IT’s the difference between idealism and merchantilism.

Interesting article. The question that should shame every Muslim petulantly whining about U.S. and Israeli “war crimes” in fighting jihad: When do Muslim states deem the lives of fellow Muslims not worth saving?

Seems to have something to do with skin color.

[quote]hedo wrote:
You want to work for a better world? Fix the problems in the Arab world and with radical Islam…things you are a lot more familiar with.[/quote]

I’m doing my share, believe me.

Why do you bother quoting a post if you don’t even read it? You quoted me writing the following:

“What I’m trying to achieve through what probably appears to some as vociferous condemnations of everything the US ever did, is for some to acknowledge that American foreign policy has ran amok and needs some serious reforming if one is remotely interested in moral or peace on Earth.”

And you bother because…

Credibility of what? Good faith? Historical knowledge? Credentials?

If you prefer to bury your heads in the sand while the world breaks apart, suit yourself.

Every single international poll I’ve seen these past three years puts the US as leader of the countries that represent the biggest threats to peace. So, I think I can speak for the world when I say that. Interestingly, two leading analysts wrote in a 2004 Journal of Art and Sciences that the current trend of American militarization and aggression is driving the world to “ultimate doom”. They concluded that our only hope was for China to step in to counter the craze.

I’m talking about threats to peace and you drag money into the equation? Ok, fair enough. How were the odds of investing in Nazi Germany back in the days? Bet it looked pretty shiny up until the war.

[quote]As to trusting the respective governments. Please spare me. Your global experience is severly limited, or skewed, if you think anyone in their right mind trusts the Chinese government over the US. China is tempting for those that are greedy but no adult would view them as trustworthy. IT’s the difference between idealism and merchantilism.
[/quote]

I have polls backing up my assertion. What do you have? A feeling?

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Interesting article. The question that should shame every Muslim petulantly whining about U.S. and Israeli “war crimes” in fighting jihad: When do Muslim states deem the lives of fellow Muslims not worth saving?

Seems to have something to do with skin color.

Every Arab country is ruled by a dictator (except Lebanon and Palestine). They are all bastards that don’t care about human rights, welfare of their people or of anyone else for that matter.

And yes, the Muslim world suffers from racism. Didn’t Jesus hold all men equal? Don’t you have racists where you come from? At least, Arabs don’t wear scary masks and chase black people with torches!

No, they wear ski masks and cut the heads off of captured civilians.

So, in your opinion, the Russians selling arms to hundreds of countries means nothing because we give billions of dollars to israel?

And as far as the polls showing the US leading unstability in war, check out this statistic, every country which is Muslim and borders another area or country that is not Muslim is in a state of war. How’s that for unstability?

You said that the conflict with Islamic Extremism may lead to a world war. Well, since you like the Russians so much, maybe we should have listened to Putin, who said in a speech somewhere that WE ARE IN A WORLD WAR WITH ISLAMIC EXTREMISM RIGHT NOW.

I believe that America should not have gotten involved in Iraq, that this was a mistake. After 9-11, we should have got all our ducks and nations threatened by islamic extremists in a row and ended this threat to humanity once and for all.

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/2/5/25536-Open_Letter_America_The_War_on_Terror_m[1].jpg

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Interesting article. The question that should shame every Muslim petulantly whining about U.S. and Israeli “war crimes” in fighting jihad: When do Muslim states deem the lives of fellow Muslims not worth saving?

Seems to have something to do with skin color.

Every Arab country is ruled by a dictator (except Lebanon and Palestine). They are all bastards that don’t care about human rights, welfare of their people or of anyone else for that matter.

And yes, the Muslim world suffers from racism. Didn’t Jesus hold all men equal? Don’t you have racists where you come from? At least, Arabs don’t wear scary masks and chase black people with torches![/quote]

“At least, Arabs don’t wear scary masks and chase black people with torches!”

Not masks exactly, but something that looks like a tablecloth wrapped around, and concealing their faces while they chant those oh so warm slogans pertainint to their religion of peace…

Charming people really. Can’t see why we wouldn’t want more of them to immigrate here…

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/31.htm

Lix, what is your solution to the Sudan problem?

Or is it ok to slaughter those people because we have some americans who are klansmen?

I see this situation the same as the one in Kosovo. There are some islamic extremists fighting us so let’s kill everyone.

On one hand you think stopping Milosovich was a good thing because he was killing muslims, but isn’t stopping the Sudan government from slaughtering mostly Black Christian rebels also a good thing?

lixy-curious,
do you consider yourself muslim?

does that mean your religous as well?

jumper
you sound stupid sometimes, relax the posts a little bit. don’t be so vehement

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
No, they wear ski masks and cut the heads off of captured civilians.[/quote]

They resist occupation. I don’t agree with their methods, but the root of their crimes have nothing to do with racism.

Pretty much. It’s business.

If I was any country watching the Iraq invasion and how you turned against one of your allies, I’d sure start bulking up my arsenal. Wouldn’t you?

I wasn’t talking about stability. The polls show the US as the biggest threat to peace. As for the conflicts in the Arab/Muslims you refer to, understand that all of those countries are ruled by dictators. Having a war comes in handy to crush the internal resistance. That way, any criticism of the regime becomes a matter of state sovereignty and they could silence the dissident more easily.

I don’t like the Russians. Blaming everything on them may have worked back in McCarthy’s days, but today we all know that they are a minor nuisance to world peace compared the US. Putin was described by Bush as “his kindered spirit”. That automatically rules him out as a thug.

Fine. What do you suggest you should have done? Nuke the whole Muslim world (1.5 billion people)? Remember that a significant Muslim population lives in India and China.

Violence only breeds more violence.

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Not masks exactly, but something that looks like a tablecloth wrapped around, and concealing their faces while they chant those oh so warm slogans pertainint to their religion of peace…
[/quote]

As far as I know, the Geneva convention gives them the right to resist an occupying force. It’s not like the Palestinians ever held the Jews as slaves and when Jews were finally emancipated, the Palestinians started persecuting them. Huge difference.

[quote]Charming people really. Can’t see why we wouldn’t want more of them to immigrate here…

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/31.htm
[/quote]

By all means, don’t allow them into your country. Change the legislation or something. Better yet, get torches and pitchforks and drive them out of there. I don’t really care. Just don’t go around blowing up their countries!

[quote]Hawkson101 wrote:
lixy-curious,
do you consider yourself muslim?

does that mean your religous as well?[/quote]

Well, sure! To be a Muslim, you just have to acknowledge the monotheistic nature of God and that Muhammad was in fact one of His prophets, just like Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all other that preceded him.

To be considered the religious kind, you have to wash up and pray five times a day, fast during Ramadan, give away between 1/10th and 1/5th of your wealth every year to the needy and visit the holy cities of Mecca and Medine. The last one being optional.

“Fine. What do you suggest you should have done? Nuke the whole Muslim world (1.5 billion people)? Remember that a significant Muslim population lives in India and China.”

Maybe if the Turks would have been allowed to exterminate the Wahabis when they ruled Arabia, we would not have this problem. (get it, muslims slaughtering muslims, no west involved here, that’s something that happened regularly in the muslim world before America the Great Satan became a world power.)

No, nuking the whole muslim world is crazy. I am never an advocate of extermination no matter who is doing the exterminating and who is getting exterminated…

I would have gotten together with all of the victims countries be they, muslims, hindus, buddhists, christians, orthodox, communists, fascists, dictators, democratically elected governments, or kingdoms, who are now being attacked by Muslim extremists, or Wahabis, and formulated a plan to destroy this movement.

So you blame America for all the problems in the modern world, constantly justify muslim atrocities on anything America has done in it’s history which remotely resembles an atrocity, and turn the other cheek in regards to Russia, who exterminated Muslims for 300 years in Kazakhstan, Uzbekstan, Crimea, and several other muslim “stans”, and Britian who basically carved up the middle east and set up these kingdoms you so despise.

For every alleged western atrocity from from our treatment of the Native Americans to the Holocaust, I can point to a muslim who has done it before, it just depends how far you want to go back.

I guess you’re just a product of Red, leftist, “death to great satan” protocals of zion propaganda that has been circulating for the last 20-30 years.

Look it up. The Russian had a massive anti-western propaganda machine cranking out stuff you’re regurgitating.

As far as china goes…looks like the Jihad will be heading there soon:

http://www.harunyahya.com/e_turkestan01.php

(if that’s not good enough, will find a better example, got to split. later.)

And anothet thing:

“If I was any country watching the Iraq invasion and how you turned against one of your allies, I’d sure start bulking up my arsenal. Wouldn’t you?”

Exactly what ally are we talking about here?

Explain this:

also, we helped Bin Laden in the war against the Russians in Afghanistan. I believe he is the one who turned against us.

As far as nuking the entire muslim world…I believe the muslims threatened to destroy the west sometime back in may:

"Statements by Dr. Hassan Abasi, theoretician of Revolutionary Guards intelligence,
head of the Revolutionary Guards’ Center for Doctrinaire Affairs of National
Security Outside Iran’s Borders, and political expert for the Iranian broadcasting
authority, who told a secret meeting of Ansar-e Hizbullah activists about
Iran’s “locating and spying on 29 sensitive sites in the West, with the aim of
bombing them… Our intention is that 6,000 U.S. nuclear warheads will explode
in [the U.S.]. We have located the [29] weak points and we have transferred the
information about them to the guerilla organizations, and we are acting through
them.” Abasi added, "We have established a department for Britain as well, and
the discussion about bringing about its collapse is on our agenda.

We are also
operating among the Mexicans, the Argentineans, and all those with a problem
with the U.S." [12] According to another report, Abasi said, “We defend [the
line of] violence and war against the enemies of revolutionary Islam. I take
pride in my actions that cause anxiety and fear among the Americans… We have
a strategy drawn up for the destruction of Anglo-Saxon civilization and for the
uprooting of the Americans and the English. Our missiles are now ready to strike
at their civilization, and as soon as the instructions arrive from Leader
[Ali Khamenei], we will launch our missiles at their cities and installations.”

http://fistfulofeuros.net/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=914

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
I would have gotten together with all of the victims countries be they, muslims, hindus, buddhists, christians, orthodox, communists, fascists, dictators, democratically elected governments, or kingdoms, who are now being attacked by Muslim extremists, or Wahabis, and formulated a plan to destroy this movement.[/quote]

Excellent. Your plan seems to care about innocents.

Now, on say the 12th of September 2001, you would have been a handful; Sudan, Somalia, Bosnia, Saudi Arabia and Israel. Of course, thanks to Bush and his insistence to wage unjust wars, the list is now three times longer.

I don’t justify it. I just point out that if you cared to look, the roots of the problem are apparent. And they have not emerged recently.

“In 1958, President Eisenhower puzzled about “the campaign of hatred against us” in the Arab world, “not by the governments but by the people,” who are “on Nasser’s side,” supporting independent secular nationalism. The reasons for the “campaign of hatred” were outlined by the National Security Council: “In the eyes of the majority of Arabs the United States appears to be opposed to the realization of the goals of Arab nationalism. They believe that the United States is seeking to protect its interest in Near East oil by supporting the status quo and opposing political or economic progress.” Furthermore, the perception is understandable: “Our economic and cultural interests in the area have led not unnaturally to close US relations with elements in the Arab world whose primary interest lies in the maintenance of relations with the West and the status quo in their countries,” blocking democracy and development.”
http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2006-04/26chomsky.cfm

The US doesn’t have a monopoly on atrocities. I think we can agree on that much. Every country has done its share. The US just seem to have taken it to a global level. Heck, Arab regimes are commiting atrocities as we speak. If this was a Turkish, Saudi or British website, I’ll blast them just as much. It just happens that most people around here happen to be from the US. That’s why the States happen to take the heat. Nothing personal.

Oh, mind you, people have been criticizing US foreign policy for far longer than that. In fact, it’s a few centuries old.

I’m too young to have been subjected to “Red” propaganda. I was 9 years old when the USSR collapsed. I have no sympathy for Soviet Russia or Maoist China. Matter of fact, I try to educate the Chinese about the atrocities their regime has commited and is commiting still. They never had access to untainted information and alternative thinking can be quite bad for the health there. What’s your excuse? Too lazy to challenge whatever you’re fed.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
As far as nuking the entire muslim world…I believe the muslims threatened to destroy the west sometime back in may:

http://fistfulofeuros.net/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=914
[/quote]

The original MEMRI article conveniently disappeared.

Just to put such dangerous allegations into perspective, here are the profiles of the founders of the “institute”:


What does a Muslim think of the Arab world?

The majority of them are no better than any muslim country. Full of corruption, hypocrisy and politicians who would rather chase six figure salaries than social justice and equality.

It is a weakness in humanity to chase what seems dear to one’s desires and lusts than to construct something that is beneficial to all.

Lixy,

Ok, the jews are evil, america is great satan, i see where you are coming from.

But you can’t tell me that the evil zionists made up that report to pressure the US into attacking Iran, when we’ve got the president of Iran threatening to wipe Israel off the map with his own mouth. That is the way these people think, that is the things they say and if you want to put your head in the sand and believe differently that is your problem.

You still never told me your solution to the genocide in darfur. Tell us about your trip to Sudan when you return.

question:

Would you be happy with Wahabi or Iranian style Islam all over the muslim world. Like it or not that’s what we’re fighting against.

Zionists = Wahabis, different ends of the same spectrum. In your view Zionists are evil, in mine Wahabis are evil. I don’t back Zionists, you claim to not back Wahabis.

And I think for myself. I am not presuaded by an Islamic extremist view of the world.

And I have a book for you if you would like:

check it out.

[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
You want to work for a better world? Fix the problems in the Arab world and with radical Islam…things you are a lot more familiar with.

I’m doing my share, believe me.

America will do quite nicely by ignoring European wanna be college kids don’t you think? I know it may not appear so to you but nearly all of your posts bitch and moan about America. You seem to be able to blame America for just about anything, and have done so frequently. Don’t believe me, read your posts.

Why do you bother quoting a post if you don’t even read it? You quoted me writing the following:

“What I’m trying to achieve through what probably appears to some as vociferous condemnations of everything the US ever did, is for some to acknowledge that American foreign policy has ran amok and needs some serious reforming if one is remotely interested in moral or peace on Earth.”

That’s why your credibility, lixy, on the subject is nil. I know you don’t see that but sadly it is apparent. Have you noticed that most of the regular posters dont’ bother with you anymore?

And you bother because…

Credibility of what? Good faith? Historical knowledge? Credentials?

If you prefer to bury your heads in the sand while the world breaks apart, suit yourself.

I think you would trust China more then the US. YOu hardly speak for the world however. As a businessman who acutally does business in the place’s you talk about, China is not trusted by anyone.

Every single international poll I’ve seen these past three years puts the US as leader of the countries that represent the biggest threats to peace. So, I think I can speak for the world when I say that. Interestingly, two leading analysts wrote in a 2004 Journal of Art and Sciences that the current trend of American militarization and aggression is driving the world to “ultimate doom”. They concluded that our only hope was for China to step in to counter the craze.

The risk in dealing with China is managed. That risk does not exist in the US which has a history of financial stability and respect for contracts and private property.

I’m talking about threats to peace and you drag money into the equation? Ok, fair enough. How were the odds of investing in Nazi Germany back in the days? Bet it looked pretty shiny up until the war.

As to trusting the respective governments. Please spare me. Your global experience is severly limited, or skewed, if you think anyone in their right mind trusts the Chinese government over the US. China is tempting for those that are greedy but no adult would view them as trustworthy. IT’s the difference between idealism and merchantilism.

I have polls backing up my assertion. What do you have? A feeling?[/quote]

No what I have is experience. I actually live here. I’ve also travelled the world and done things you only speculate about while you sit in your cubicle at Tehran Univ.

I don’t buy the rest of the character you’ve created for a minute. I’m also an adult and you are not. You haven’t done adult things so your sage wisom is comical to those who have lived a little.

I’m also able to think and reason. You are simply a bigot. A bigot of the worst kind. Subsititute the word “black” or 'arab" for American in every one of your posts and see how it reads. Your a bigot, nothing more, and that is why you are roundly dismissed around here. It’s pointless to argue with bigots I generally mock them sheerly for the fun of it. Your a bigot.

Again what you leave out of your response betray’s your lack of understanding and points out your bigotry Your comment about money vs. “peace” was truly priceless. Actually you introduced it. How do you think your alturistic citizens seek to have China “balance” the US.

I don’t know much about how business prospects in Nazi Germany were. The US didn’t support them, unlike many Islamic nations, which were quite enamored with the Nazi’s and still share much of the same philosphies. You understand that don’t you?

At best your a student lixy, trying to spread your bullshit. I simply point out nobody falls for it here so why waste your time, it’s dull and boring…like you.