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Muscle ups

How should I be training muscle ups… I do 5 sets of 5 reps mon-friday.

I don’t kip… nor is it a pure strength movement for me. its an explosive pull to get above the bar.

i know how to train hypertrophy and strength. I dont know how i should be training speed/explosiveness.

how often should i train the muscle up? what set/rep schemes? what has worked for you?

my max is 6 reps.

muscle ups don’t fatigue me at all. I use them as a warmup and then go into weighted pullups or whatever other lifts i have for that day.

i just don’t know what the best approach for improving explosiveness and speed is. for my speed to increase and recovery to improve so i can get more reps, what should i be doing?

i think the site is called gymnastic training. some web site that is for gymnasts that is very helpful … steven low has a site too. google both…

[quote]spk wrote:
i think the site is called gymnastic training. some web site that is for gymnasts that is very helpful … steven low has a site too. google both…[/quote]

word, ill look it up!

Look up gynmasticbodies, you’ll find Christopher Sommer’s site. Best gynmastic training site on the web bar none.

[quote]peglegjoe857 wrote:
How should I be training muscle ups… I do 5 sets of 5 reps mon-friday.

I don’t kip… nor is it a pure strength movement for me. its an explosive pull to get above the bar.

i know how to train hypertrophy and strength. I dont know how i should be training speed/explosiveness.

how often should i train the muscle up? what set/rep schemes? what has worked for you?

my max is 6 reps.

muscle ups don’t fatigue me at all. I use them as a warmup and then go into weighted pullups or whatever other lifts i have for that day.

i just don’t know what the best approach for improving explosiveness and speed is. for my speed to increase and recovery to improve so i can get more reps, what should i be doing?
[/quote]

It sounds like you want a more explosive muscle up but what do you actually mean by that? If you can already muscle up, making it more explosive would mean accelerating faster but because the load is still the same (your bodyweight) you’ll just be looking to achieve hang-time at the peak of your effort, is that what you want? You could increase the explosiveness by adding weight from ankle weights, weighted vest or by some other means and performing muscle ups with an emphasis on the explosive part of the movement.

How often should you train muscle up? That really depends on your goals. If you want to increase the explosiveness and train how I outlined (by adding weight), I would train it at least every second day. How you’re training now sounds OK but if you’re using heavy weight I hope you would be including warm up sets.

What reps/sets? This depends on how much excess weight you’ve added. You could vary it anywhere from 5x5 with a little extra weight through triples, doubles and even singles for 5 sets with heavier weights.

What has worked for you? I had different goals to you. I wanted to get the muscle up and once I could I would include it in my routine for the next few months until I could perform them easily. They then became unnecessary to me to train on their own so I just include muscle ups when I have to train something where I need to start in rings support.

P.S. How can you train muscle ups 5x5 Mon - Fri but 6 reps is your max??

[quote]peglegjoe857 wrote:
I don’t kip… nor is it a pure strength movement for me. its an explosive pull to get above the bar.

my max is 6 reps.

muscle ups don’t fatigue me at all. I use them as a warmup and then go into weighted pullups or whatever other lifts i have for that day.
[/quote]

dude screw you.

<----- jelly

[quote]Tys wrote:

[quote]peglegjoe857 wrote:
How should I be training muscle ups… I do 5 sets of 5 reps mon-friday.

I don’t kip… nor is it a pure strength movement for me. its an explosive pull to get above the bar.

i know how to train hypertrophy and strength. I dont know how i should be training speed/explosiveness.

how often should i train the muscle up? what set/rep schemes? what has worked for you?

my max is 6 reps.

muscle ups don’t fatigue me at all. I use them as a warmup and then go into weighted pullups or whatever other lifts i have for that day.

i just don’t know what the best approach for improving explosiveness and speed is. for my speed to increase and recovery to improve so i can get more reps, what should i be doing?
[/quote]

It sounds like you want a more explosive muscle up but what do you actually mean by that? If you can already muscle up, making it more explosive would mean accelerating faster but because the load is still the same (your bodyweight) you’ll just be looking to achieve hang-time at the peak of your effort, is that what you want? You could increase the explosiveness by adding weight from ankle weights, weighted vest or by some other means and performing muscle ups with an emphasis on the explosive part of the movement.

How often should you train muscle up? That really depends on your goals. If you want to increase the explosiveness and train how I outlined (by adding weight), I would train it at least every second day. How you’re training now sounds OK but if you’re using heavy weight I hope you would be including warm up sets.

What reps/sets? This depends on how much excess weight you’ve added. You could vary it anywhere from 5x5 with a little extra weight through triples, doubles and even singles for 5 sets with heavier weights.

What has worked for you? I had different goals to you. I wanted to get the muscle up and once I could I would include it in my routine for the next few months until I could perform them easily. They then became unnecessary to me to train on their own so I just include muscle ups when I have to train something where I need to start in rings support.

P.S. How can you train muscle ups 5x5 Mon - Fri but 6 reps is your max??
[/quote]

That’s what is interesting to me… I can hit 5 reps 5 times in a row… i have even done 5 reps for 10 sets. usually it’s never enough work to get even the slightest bit of fatigue in my muscles. but the explosiveness just drops quickly after 5 reps.

I put 2.5 lbs on my legs and was able to do a set like that… but then when i put 5lbs on, i couldn’t get over the bar for a single rep.

it’s kind of weird, i don’t understand how something like that can slow my pull down so much that i go from 5 reps to 0. That’s part of why i have been confused by how to train muscle ups.

I changed my routine now, actually. just started this new approach… Im doing a pull-m/th push-tu/fr routine where every m/th i do sets of muscle ups to start. monday is my deadlift day and i do a max set of muscles ups, followed by 10 sets of 3 muscle ups… and then the rest of my pull routine, that consists of deads, rows, pullups, and upright rows. on thursday its the same, without deads, and instead of bar muscle ups i do 10 sets of 1 weighted ring muscle up. i find the ring muscle up is significantly more muscularly engaging for me… then i go into my weighted pullup routine, more rows, more upright rows, more bodyweight pullups to the chest.

on my push days im doing typical db bench stuff, but focusing on weighted dips and bar dips.

im hoping this approach will help. im trying to do movements to “build” my muscle up. and im using the muscle up as something to gauge my progress, and something to maintain and hopefully develop through all my other lifts.

It might be important to note that when training for power you don’t train your exercises till failure; you want to focus on the explosive part of the movement with a strict attention to technique. I haven’t seen your muscle up before but if you’re at the point when your arms are not moving above the bar at the same time early in the sets it would be worth lowering the rep range.

On a side note, a little weight can make all the difference. When myself and my training partner were training for one-arm chin-up (OAC) it came the day to try it and we just couldn’t find the strength for the second half of the pull. However, when I had my training partner hold a flimsy and flat piece of wood under my feet and push against them when I pulled, I could the get the OAC easily!

Tys is right about not going to failure for maximum power, but if you want to do more than 5 muscle ups, you’re eventually going to have to try for 6. If you can do 5 but not 6, I’m not sure what you mean about not being fatigued. When you can’t get another rep, that’s pretty much the definition of fatigue.

If you mean that the fatigue feels different than doing a set up chin ups to fatigue, then I get it. It’s a totally different feel, but it’s still fatigue.

Still, if you can do 5 x 5, you should be able to get 6 reps. I suggest you start doing just three sets. On your first set, try to get 6, then do 5 on sets 2 & 3. Next week, try to get 6 on sets 1 & 2, and just 5 on the last set. The next week, try to get all three sets of 6. It might take a while, but when you can do 3 x 6, try doing 7 on your first set and start the process all over again. Eventually, you’ll build up more power endurance and you’ll be able to do more reps.

Another option is to perform one muscle-up workout based on power and another one based on strength. If you can build up the necessary strength to be able to perform 5 sets of 5 reps of slow, strict bar muscle-ups (and that means slow through the transition as well), then power based muscle-ups are going to be a piece of cake for you and your numbers will most certainly improve.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Another option is to perform one muscle-up workout based on power and another one based on strength. If you can build up the necessary strength to be able to perform 5 sets of 5 reps of slow, strict bar muscle-ups (and that means slow through the transition as well), then power based muscle-ups are going to be a piece of cake for you and your numbers will most certainly improve.[/quote]

Not necessarily. Strength training doesn’t improve power. If it did then strength AND power type training wouldn’t exist. My reasoning behind this is that doing something slow and controlled is not going to enable you to perform the same movement explosively because you’re not relying on the same means of generating force.

On a side note, it has been said that olympic lifters can make great powerlifters but powerlifters do not make great olympic lifters.

[quote]Tys wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Another option is to perform one muscle-up workout based on power and another one based on strength. If you can build up the necessary strength to be able to perform 5 sets of 5 reps of slow, strict bar muscle-ups (and that means slow through the transition as well), then power based muscle-ups are going to be a piece of cake for you and your numbers will most certainly improve.[/quote]

Not necessarily. Strength training doesn’t improve power. If it did then strength AND power type training wouldn’t exist. My reasoning behind this is that doing something slow and controlled is not going to enable you to perform the same movement explosively because you’re not relying on the same means of generating force.

On a side note, it has been said that olympic lifters can make great powerlifters but powerlifters do not make great olympic lifters.
[/quote]
Strength training can definitely improve power. It’s half of the equation. If I get stronger and can still move at the same speed, I am now more powerful. If I want to produce force quickly (ie. ‘be powerful’), I need to be able to improve my strength to increase my maximum force, as well as improve my rate of force production. Do you think a 300 pound squatter will be able to move 250 pounds as powerfully/quickly as a 600 pound squatter can?

I’m not sure if a ‘slow’ muscle-up with be of great benefit, but the premise behind it is sound imo. Perhaps muscle-ups in a weighted vest would be more applicable.

[quote]Tys wrote:
Not necessarily. Strength training doesn’t improve power. If it did then strength AND power type training wouldn’t exist. My reasoning behind this is that doing something slow and controlled is not going to enable you to perform the same movement explosively because you’re not relying on the same means of generating force.
[/quote]

Strength training doesn’t improve power? Do you seriously believe that?

Go grab a broomstick at shoulders width and your arms locked out straight and try to slowly raise it slowly starting from touching your legs up to overhead (without leaning your shoulders back significantly or using your legs to assist in the movement). Now try the same thing with a 60 lb barbell. Not that the barbell constituted a much larger percentage of your maximal strength (if you could it it at all).

Now try taking both implements (the stick and the bar and using the same motion, throw the implement as high and far as you can into the air. I’d bet dollars to dimes that you can throw the stick higher and further. Why? Because it represents a smaller percentage of your maximal strength.

That has nothing to do with strength, it has to do with the fact that the Oly lifts require superior technique, flexibility, and strength, while the power lifts only require superior strength and average flexibility. In other words, the squat and deadlift Power lifts are just technically easier versions of the Oly lifts. Also, Oly lifters would really suffer on the bench as they don’t bench at all.

[quote]The Hoss wrote:

[quote]Tys wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Another option is to perform one muscle-up workout based on power and another one based on strength. If you can build up the necessary strength to be able to perform 5 sets of 5 reps of slow, strict bar muscle-ups (and that means slow through the transition as well), then power based muscle-ups are going to be a piece of cake for you and your numbers will most certainly improve.[/quote]

Not necessarily. Strength training doesn’t improve power. If it did then strength AND power type training wouldn’t exist. My reasoning behind this is that doing something slow and controlled is not going to enable you to perform the same movement explosively because you’re not relying on the same means of generating force.

On a side note, it has been said that olympic lifters can make great powerlifters but powerlifters do not make great olympic lifters.
[/quote]
Strength training can definitely improve power. It’s half of the equation. If I get stronger and can still move at the same speed, I am now more powerful. If I want to produce force quickly (ie. ‘be powerful’), I need to be able to improve my strength to increase my maximum force, as well as improve my rate of force production. Do you think a 300 pound squatter will be able to move 250 pounds as powerfully/quickly as a 600 pound squatter can?

I’m not sure if a ‘slow’ muscle-up with be of great benefit, but the premise behind it is sound imo. Perhaps muscle-ups in a weighted vest would be more applicable.[/quote]

A slow muscle-up demonstrates that the individual has developed sufficient strength for the movement at every point along the way from a dead hang to the support above the bar. Trust me that if you can do 5x5 of slow bar muscle-ups, that 5x5 power muscle-ups is going to be a walk in the park.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]The Hoss wrote:

[quote]Tys wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Another option is to perform one muscle-up workout based on power and another one based on strength. If you can build up the necessary strength to be able to perform 5 sets of 5 reps of slow, strict bar muscle-ups (and that means slow through the transition as well), then power based muscle-ups are going to be a piece of cake for you and your numbers will most certainly improve.[/quote]

Not necessarily. Strength training doesn’t improve power. If it did then strength AND power type training wouldn’t exist. My reasoning behind this is that doing something slow and controlled is not going to enable you to perform the same movement explosively because you’re not relying on the same means of generating force.

On a side note, it has been said that olympic lifters can make great powerlifters but powerlifters do not make great olympic lifters.
[/quote]
Strength training can definitely improve power. It’s half of the equation. If I get stronger and can still move at the same speed, I am now more powerful. If I want to produce force quickly (ie. ‘be powerful’), I need to be able to improve my strength to increase my maximum force, as well as improve my rate of force production. Do you think a 300 pound squatter will be able to move 250 pounds as powerfully/quickly as a 600 pound squatter can?

I’m not sure if a ‘slow’ muscle-up with be of great benefit, but the premise behind it is sound imo. Perhaps muscle-ups in a weighted vest would be more applicable.[/quote]

A slow muscle-up demonstrates that the individual has developed sufficient strength for the movement at every point along the way from a dead hang to the support above the bar. Trust me that if you can do 5x5 of slow bar muscle-ups, that 5x5 power muscle-ups is going to be a walk in the park.[/quote]

I currently don’t come close to doing one slow muscle up. It’s like bench press… when I move with explosive bar speed I can push much more weight than if I tried to do a slow bench press. For bench press, the speed out of the bottom helps me through the tricep part of the movement, because my triceps are not as well developed as my chest… and for the muscle up, the speed helps me past the transition portion of the movement… because my forearm strength just can’t support my weight through it.

that being said, I don’t kip or use leg momentum in the slightest… just as i don’t lift my butt off the bench to generate more power when I bench press.

I can do single ring muscle ups, and because there is no bar limiting the range of my movement… i can do these much slower… so im working on weighted singles of ring muscle ups… no kip, of course.

Something interesting happened today… my little brother, knowing that I have a lot of pullup explosiveness, found out the local san antonio college just a few blocks from my house was doing a contest to see who can make it up a salmon ladder.:

He told me that those who got to the top of the ladder would get free admission to the “alpha warrior” obstacle course next weekend. I quickly rode my bike down there, and attempted it twice with swing/kip. I have never done a kipping pullup in my life, so it was a really awkward movement for me and I only got a few steps up the first 3 tries. I rested a second and let some other guys go… took my shoes off and said “fuck it, im doing this the way i muscle up… knees straight, pure explosive pulling power” and i made it to the top easily.

I realized that setting up some kind of salmon ladder would drastically help my pullup power…

Anyway, in regard to something mentioned earlier… developing strength CERTAINLY helps develop power and explosiveness. Two things enabled me to do muscle ups… i got my weighted pullup up to 90lbs… and after 3 months of leaning out, dropped 20 lbs, got my first UGLY muscle up. I quickly developed 6 more, after i got used to the technique.

Currently I am focusing my training on weighted dips (usually i have a bench day, and i pushed dips to the top of my “push” training… screw bench press) and weighted pullups. As I mentioned earlier, I train the muscle up for 10x3 one day, and 10x1 weighted on rings another.

I just want more muscle ups… forget everything else, whatever will improve my muscle ups im doing it.

after two months at a 6 rep max, I finally got up to 8 today. Next month… 10 reps…

Check out ‘greasing the groove’ style training. It is a good way to increase your maximum reps or a given skill.

just an update for anybody who might care about this… i got past 10 already. hit 12 last week. initially i was trying to train explosiveness, but when that didn’t work i started training 3 sets of 5 reps for everything… a month later i got to 10… i month later i got to 12.

i guess simply improving strength DOES improve power/explosiveness… at least in this situation, it did.

my max pullups improved too. i went from 17 to 20. i could probably do more, that set of 20 was on a day i did 75lbs pullups for 3x5… so my lats and arms were already fried.

anyway… in a month or two i hope to get 15 muscleups…

[quote]peglegjoe857 wrote:
just an update for anybody who might care about this… i got past 10 already. hit 12 last week. initially i was trying to train explosiveness, but when that didn’t work i started training 3 sets of 5 reps for everything… a month later i got to 10… i month later i got to 12.

i guess simply improving strength DOES improve power/explosiveness… at least in this situation, it did.

my max pullups improved too. i went from 17 to 20. i could probably do more, that set of 20 was on a day i did 75lbs pullups for 3x5… so my lats and arms were already fried.

anyway… in a month or two i hope to get 15 muscleups…[/quote]

Nice. Yup strength definitely improves power/explosiveness. Keep up the good work.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[

That has nothing to do with strength, it has to do with the fact that the Oly lifts require superior technique, flexibility, and strength, while the power lifts only require superior strength and average flexibility. In other words, the squat and deadlift Power lifts are just technically easier versions of the Oly lifts. Also, Oly lifters would really suffer on the bench as they don’t bench at all.[/quote]

Exactly. Well said on why elite (or at least accomplished) oly lifters will tend to find it easier to become successful powerlifters than the reverse.