Murder Street

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Gael wrote:
It’s a bit strange to topple the government of a sovereign country and replace order with effective anarchy and blame the resultant chaos on the inhabitants. Somehow this is like saying “This isn’t our fault. No one could have predicted that lawlessness brings out the worst in people. If they were better people, they would function just fine under lawlessness.”

…

I don’t understand how a mind like yours works. When people murder innocents you blame others instead of the murderers. Unreal.[/quote]

If a guard is asleep at his prison post, and a prisoner escapes and kills someone his boss (and most people) would yell at the guard, reprimand him, perhaps fire him. It seems you are the kind of guy who would pat him on the back and say “Don’t worry about it. It’s not your fault. It’s the prisoners fault for being a bad person and trying to escape.”

In the breakdown of civil order, you see people turn into looters, rapists, murderers. This is predictable. If you caused this lawlessness, this rise in crime is your fault. It is a truism to say that the murderers are the ones at fault for the murder. Duh. So what? It is your colossal fuckup that gave these people the opportunity to murder, just as it was the guard asleep at his post who should be fired for his inability to do his job.

It is beyond sad that this needs to be explained to you. To point out that the rise in crime is caused by criminals is so self evidently true and empty that one can only conclude that your motive is to remove blame from yourself.

In the prison analogy, if you grossly mismanage security and all the prisoners escape – and I told you that you fucked everything up – would your response be “We didn’t fuck it up. The prisoners fucked it up.”

That’s really the emptiness of your argument. This is a politics forum – where people argue and discuss public policy. When people discuss things crime rates – they discuss the factors that caused them. Obviously, a murder is caused by the murderer – but this does not excuse all matters of public policy that give rise to this.

How can you not understand that?

22

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
And 50 years after colonialism, it becomes increasingly hard to blame the white man for the ills of Africa. [/quote]

Regard for cultural boundaries never has been the strong suit of western civilization.

Drawing borders around people that historically have been at each other’s throats and then telling them to kiss and make up does not work. Eventually, the forces that hold the borders in place get dissolved and the entire region will sputter into chaos – witness: every region where Balkanization has occurred.

Staying out of the way and letting these cultures either kill themselves off or figure out a way to coexist is the only moral course of action for an outside party to take. Europe figured out how to solve its problems and now it’s the rest of the world’s turn.

23

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
And 50 years after colonialism, it becomes increasingly hard to blame the white man for the ills of Africa.

Regard for cultural boundaries never has been the strong suit of western civilization.

Drawing borders around people that historically have been at each other’s throats and then telling them to kiss and make up does not work. Eventually, the forces that hold the borders in place get dissolved and the entire region will sputter into chaos – witness: every region where Balkanization has occurred.

Staying out of the way and letting these cultures either kill themselves off or figure out a way to coexist is the only moral course of action for an outside party to take. Europe figured out how to solve its problems and now it’s the rest of the world’s turn.[/quote]

Yeah, Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun sure respected boundaries, didn’t they. How about the Seljuks or the Ottomans? They were some REAL boundary respecters. Ever hear of the Assyrians, the Nazis of the ancient world?

Only Western civilization has a monopoly on disrespecting boundaries, right? Otherwise, there would be peaceful coexistence amongst peoples.

No, Europe hasn’t learned a thing. They’ve imported massive amounts of Muslims and will be fighting again shortly, if there are any young enough and brave enough to do so.

24

How the fuck can you draw borders correctly?

I don’t get as if this is played on Western ignorance or some shit.

Europe is the most tribal, disjointed and ethnically plural regions of the world.

We have created our own nation states regardless of the fact that our ethnic groups are spilling all over eachother.

Why does some tribal bloodline have more value than a modern state?

France was able to construct a new identity for itself despite such foolishness.

If Africa and the ME don’t like the map we have supposeduly ‘given’ them…then redraw it.

25

[quote]Gael wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Gael wrote:
It’s a bit strange to topple the government of a sovereign country and replace order with effective anarchy and blame the resultant chaos on the inhabitants. Somehow this is like saying “This isn’t our fault. No one could have predicted that lawlessness brings out the worst in people. If they were better people, they would function just fine under lawlessness.”

…

I don’t understand how a mind like yours works. When people murder innocents you blame others instead of the murderers. Unreal.

If a guard is asleep at his prison post, and a prisoner escapes and kills someone his boss (and most people) would yell at the guard, reprimand him, perhaps fire him. It seems you are the kind of guy who would pat him on the back and say “Don’t worry about it. It’s not your fault. It’s the prisoners fault for being a bad person and trying to escape.”

In the breakdown of civil order, you see people turn into looters, rapists, murderers. This is predictable. If you caused this lawlessness, this rise in crime is your fault. It is a truism to say that the murderers are the ones at fault for the murder. Duh. So what? It is your colossal fuckup that gave these people the opportunity to murder, just as it was the guard asleep at his post who should be fired for his inability to do his job.

It is beyond sad that this needs to be explained to you. To point out that the rise in crime is caused by criminals is so self evidently true and empty that one can only conclude that your motive is to remove blame from yourself.

In the prison analogy, if you grossly mismanage security and all the prisoners escape – and I told you that you fucked everything up – would your response be “We didn’t fuck it up. The prisoners fucked it up.”

That’s really the emptiness of your argument. This is a politics forum – where people argue and discuss public policy. When people discuss things crime rates – they discuss the factors that caused them. Obviously, a murder is caused by the murderer – but this does not excuse all matters of public policy that give rise to this.

How can you not understand that?[/quote]

Are you aware that Iraq has a government, police and military as well as over 100,000 American soldiers trying to keep the peace and they are still killing each other?

26

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Yeah, Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun sure respected boundaries, didn’t they. [/quote]

These people weren’t pretending to be doing anyone any favors. There is an arrogance to the fact that we have turned our culture in to a verb. Westernizing! As if…

27

This type of violence wouldn’t have happened under Saddam - it would have been different violence and it would have been sanction by their leader.

28

[quote]Gael wrote:
That’s really the emptiness of your argument. This is a politics forum – where people argue and discuss public policy. When people discuss things crime rates – they discuss the factors that caused them. Obviously, a murder is caused by the murderer – but this does not excuse all matters of public policy that give rise to this.

How can you not understand that?[/quote]

So we should excuse the murder and pity him because of, what?, he was abused as a child? His mother didn’t love him? He was bullied at school? He was poor?

A murderer is a murderer is a murderer and should be treated as such.

There are muslim extremists killing each other and others in countries around the world and this is going on with out the involvement of the United States.

So, what is the excuse for the terrorist attack in India this last week?

29

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Gael wrote:
That’s really the emptiness of your argument. This is a politics forum – where people argue and discuss public policy. When people discuss things crime rates – they discuss the factors that caused them. Obviously, a murder is caused by the murderer – but this does not excuse all matters of public policy that give rise to this.

How can you not understand that?

Are you aware that Iraq has a government, police and military as well as over 100,000 American soldiers trying to keep the peace and they are still killing each other?

[/quote]

Are you trying to argue that we are doing an effective job? That’s like saying “I took steroids, worked out for 3 hours every day, read every article on T-Nation, and I still didn’t grow.”

Right.

The conditions in present day Iraq did not exist under Saddam. This stated humanitarian mission did not make things better. It made things far worse – so much so that your only response is to point out that Saddam gassed 5,000 civilians back in 1988 and exxagerate this statistic up to “hundreds of thousands,” and then somehow distort this to the notion that Iraq was a hellhole then and now, regardless of anything we have done.

It would be funny, except you probably actually believe the things you write.

30

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
So we should excuse the murder and pity him because of, what?, he was abused as a child? His mother didn’t love him? He was bullied at school? He was poor?[/quote]

There is no excuse. The murderer should be punished. Period. Why is it that if I don’t point out the obvious, you assume I think otherwise? Read more carefully.

Yes. Point me to where I said otherwise. This is so obviously true, it is sad if I don’t point out I agree, you assume I disagree. Read more carefully.

However, there was not a single car bombing in Iraq prior to the US invasion. Now they are a daily occurrence.

Point me to where I said anything about excusing the actions of terrorists and killers. They should be punished. Period. Why is it that if I don’t point out the obvious, you assume I think otherwise? Read more carefully.

32

[quote]Chushin wrote:
If, in say, 5 years, Iraq is a functioning, thriving democracy, will it change your view on the US involvement there? [/quote]

That’s irrelevant. What matters is the views of Iraqis. And seeing how most of them lost loved ones, it’s hard to believe that they’ll be any kind of forgiving involved.

If any sort of stability and prosperity is reached in Iraq, it will be thanks to Iraqis and the neighboring powers (i.e: Turkey, Iran). Any instability will automatically be blamed on the invading forces. It’s quite simple really.

It’s sad to see a country with so much potential go to waste.

34

[quote]Gael wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Gael wrote:
That’s really the emptiness of your argument. This is a politics forum – where people argue and discuss public policy. When people discuss things crime rates – they discuss the factors that caused them. Obviously, a murder is caused by the murderer – but this does not excuse all matters of public policy that give rise to this.

How can you not understand that?

Are you aware that Iraq has a government, police and military as well as over 100,000 American soldiers trying to keep the peace and they are still killing each other?

Are you trying to argue that we are doing an effective job? That’s like saying “I took steroids, worked out for 3 hours every day, read every article on T-Nation, and I still didn’t grow.”

Right.

The conditions in present day Iraq did not exist under Saddam. …[/quote]

Saddam wiped out entire villages to eliminate rebellion. We are unwilling to do the same, so yes we are not doing as much to control Iraq as Saddam did. Iraq has to fix its own mess.

You are remarkable long on opinion yet short on historical fact.

35

They martyred Saddam, so I guess after we leave, they’ll say 'WE SHOULD HAVE NEVER THROWN THE US OUT, THEY JUST WANTED TO HELP."

36

[quote]Chushin wrote:
… it’s hard to believe that they’ll be any kind of forgiving involved.

Who cares what YOU “believe.” That’s pure speculation on your part.[/quote]

That was a general observation. It is speculative, but an educated guess nonetheless. To say that Iraqis will not demand retribution for the mess the US military has turned their country into, is wishful thinking. That much is acknowledged even in the higher ranks of the military.

[quote]If any sort of stability and prosperity is reached in Iraq, it will be thanks to Iraqis and the neighboring powers (i.e: Turkey, Iran). Any instability will automatically be blamed on the invading forces. It’s quite simple really.

Actually YOU’RE really quite simple. This is YOUR perspective, which is, of course, as predictable as the sunrise. It ain’t the “fact” that you pretend it to be. [/quote]

Eh?

You are insane if you think Iraqis will give the US credit for anything other than overthrowing Saddam.

This is not my perspective. How many Algerians do you think gave credit to France for all the infrastructure it put in place? How many Tibetans are thanking their lucky stars for China?

You are either delusional or seriously misinformed. Although the former is much more likely in your case.

[quote]It’s sad to see a country with so much potential go to waste.

Yeah, because it was thriving so robustly before the war. [/quote]

Not quite. But at least, there weren’t foreigners running around shooting at people (or gasp the Quran!). There was state terrorism, but by and large, it was still a functioning society. After the Big Terrorist State took a special interest in their lives, the routine of Iraqis is now a daily fight - literally.

37

[quote]lixy wrote:
…You are insane if you think Iraqis will give the US credit for anything other than overthrowing Saddam.

…[/quote]

We are not China nor France. The American soldier is the greatest ambassador in the world. Stop reading your jihad texts and biased mainstream media bullshit and read about the guys that are on the ground interacting with the locals. They would dispute all the poison that you inject into these forums.

38

[quote]Eh?

You are insane if you think Iraqis will give the US credit for anything other than overthrowing Saddam. [/quote]

Of course not. They’re ungrateful Arab boy-lovers and cousin marriers. They can scarcely lift a finger to do something to better themselves. They have only disdain for the people doing work for them.

I dunno. There’s plenty of North Africans who voted with their feet to move to the banlieus of France to enjoy running water, roads, and other luxuries of modern life rather than stay in their Islamic hell-holes, which were veritable gardens during Roman and Visigothic times.

Nevertheless, the Arabs are the ones shooting at one another. They’re the responsible party - the savages that can’t seem to comprehend the Decalogue. The Kurds are a law unto themselves and live in civility.

39

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The American soldier is the greatest ambassador in the world. Stop reading your jihad texts and biased mainstream media bullshit and read about the guys that are on the ground interacting with the locals. [/quote]

I’ll take that as sarcasm.

40

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Yeah, we get it. The Yanks screwed up Iraq. What else is new?

Iraqis screwed up Iraq. Iraq was a mess before we got there. Iraq is a mess now. The US and the Coalition allies are the only ones trying to fix it. [/quote]

And I think we need to come to the realization that we cannot reverse thousands of years of brainwashing. Iraq is beyond repair. We either put in a new dictator and let him do what he needs to keep the natives under control, or we nuke the place and start over.