Muay Thai for Self Defense

Bigger Stronger Leaner
81

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

[/quote]

Naw. Last time I tried an armbar in a fight I broke the dude’s arm (then face planted him. He was a nast f-tard so not to worry.) Pain compliance relies on them being able to process what you are doing fast enough for them to have a change of heart. In the case of LEO’s. the suspect is usually trying to get away and knows there are more LEO’s on the way (or should be). This gives the officer a chance to apply a pain compliance, because there is a well-defined and known context. The officer is trying to restrain the suspect, not execute him.

– jj[/quote]

I’m not going to deny that some people will break their own joints in the heat of battle, but, in general if people are struggling, you don’t have the lock on correctly. Pain compliance is not a voluntary reaction, in fact, the reflex arc created by the nerves which sense pain actually does not even involve the brain, but instead only the nerves themselves, the interneuron in the spinal cord and the associated motor neuron which controls the necessary muscles. Whether we’re talking about attacking the Golgi Tendon Organ right above the Olecranon process for a standing armbar, stretching the muscles of the shoulder joint to their limit during a Kimura, or any other joint manipulation, the associated pain compliance is totally involuntary (again assuming that you actually have the lock on right and they are feeling pain). That’s one of the great things about joint locks, people respond in a very predictable way to them since their bodies are reacting in an involuntary fashion.

Like Robert said though, smaller joints like fingers have a much greater chance of winding up breaking, due to their smaller less stable structure, than larger joints like the elbow or shoulder. That’s one of the reasons why when you are drilling finger locks, you are taught to avoid locking a single finger as it is likely to snap (you instead always lock several).[/quote]

This is how I was taught as well. However, in practical application, even if you are fairly skilled, it seems to me that the likelihood of applying a joint lock less than perfectly while in a real, dynamic situation is pretty high. I can absolutely see and have experienced how this might result in a.) the person being able to resist/escape or b.) the force coming on so suddenly that pain compliance doesn’t take effect before the damage is done. This somewhat plays into what Robert said about training for where to go when your technique fails.

Not really arguing against joint locks, I am a fan in the right application. Just trying to further the discussion.

82

I wonder if Harmony took the class.

83

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

[/quote]

Naw. Last time I tried an armbar in a fight I broke the dude’s arm (then face planted him. He was a nast f-tard so not to worry.) Pain compliance relies on them being able to process what you are doing fast enough for them to have a change of heart. In the case of LEO’s. the suspect is usually trying to get away and knows there are more LEO’s on the way (or should be). This gives the officer a chance to apply a pain compliance, because there is a well-defined and known context. The officer is trying to restrain the suspect, not execute him.

– jj[/quote]

I’m not going to deny that some people will break their own joints in the heat of battle, but, in general if people are struggling, you don’t have the lock on correctly. Pain compliance is not a voluntary reaction, in fact, the reflex arc created by the nerves which sense pain actually does not even involve the brain, but instead only the nerves themselves, the interneuron in the spinal cord and the associated motor neuron which controls the necessary muscles. Whether we’re talking about attacking the Golgi Tendon Organ right above the Olecranon process for a standing armbar, stretching the muscles of the shoulder joint to their limit during a Kimura, or any other joint manipulation, the associated pain compliance is totally involuntary (again assuming that you actually have the lock on right and they are feeling pain). That’s one of the great things about joint locks, people respond in a very predictable way to them since their bodies are reacting in an involuntary fashion.

Like Robert said though, smaller joints like fingers have a much greater chance of winding up breaking, due to their smaller less stable structure, than larger joints like the elbow or shoulder. That’s one of the reasons why when you are drilling finger locks, you are taught to avoid locking a single finger as it is likely to snap (you instead always lock several).[/quote]

This is how I was taught as well. However, in practical application, even if you are fairly skilled, it seems to me that the likelihood of applying a joint lock less than perfectly while in a real, dynamic situation is pretty high. I can absolutely see and have experienced how this might result in a.) the person being able to resist/escape or b.) the force coming on so suddenly that pain compliance doesn’t take effect before the damage is done. This somewhat plays into what Robert said about training for where to go when your technique fails.

Not really arguing against joint locks, I am a fan in the right application. Just trying to further the discussion.[/quote]

From my experience as an LEO, it is very hard to apply a joint lock on a resisting individual, especially if they are drunk, high, or enraged. 75 percent of “help calls” usually begin with the officer trying to apply a “lock”. Now, granted, most are not as highly trained as they should be, and get comfortable having the radio save their ass, but,it is very difficult on the street, especially in the summer, when evryone is sweaty. In my experience, you first had to break their “mindset” either by force (kick to back of the knee, ASP baton strike to elbow, etc…before you could lock them down for cuffing. Not stating it cannot be done,because, I am sure some of you could do it,it just never goes down on the street the way it does on a mat.

84

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
I wonder if Harmony took the class.[/quote]

In my earlier post, I asked him to come on and at least, thank everyone for sharing their knowledge. and I am not taking about me. Sento, Robert, Irish, Londonboxer, Ranzo, you, and a host of others spent a lot of time and effort on this. If you want free advise on all phases of fighting, this is the place to ask, because you will receive quality instruction.

OP: I hope you are well and simply cannot respond, but, its a pet bitch of mine that people should always be appreciative of good advise and not simply ask a question and then disappear.

85

Yeah, obviously no technique (be it a punch, kick, knee, joint lock, choke, weapon defense, weapon offense skill, etc…) is going to work 100% of the time. If there was any such technique or tactic, then all we’d ever have to practice is that one technique/tactic.

I’m not suggesting that you’re going to get the initial lock every time, but, like I said in a previous post, if you’ve trained it enough (and correctly), you know where the escape routes are and so are generally going to be able to catch an extension (or combination) off of that initial lock much of the time. And yeah, again I agree that sometimes the joint will get destroyed if it’s a serious enough encounter and I either choose to destroy it, or they choose to destroy it. :slight_smile:

Again too, if I feel that for whatever reason I’ve lost the lock, I’ll simply switch to whatever arsenal makes the most sense (I don’t get tactical tunnel vision) and finish things as quickly as possible (whether that means running to saftey, continuing to engage the opponent, putting some sort of blockage between me and them while I attempt to access a superior weapon or call for help, etc…).

The other thing to consider is that I’m not talking about trying to say catch a jab out of midair and turn it into a Kotagaeshi wrist lock (though, if you’re fast enough and have trained hard enough that can be a viable technique, maybe not against a professional boxer, but against most people) and then immediately take them down to the ground with it, which is talking about needing tons of timing, lots of force and bodyweight involved, and having a much smaller margin for error in terms of missing the lock or damaging the joint (due to it’s smaller structure).

I’m talking about stopping the initial force on force collision using an extremely strong structure (a SPEAR) against two relatively large and easily targeted nerve clusters (the radial and ulnar nerves on the inside or thumb side of the forearm and the brachial plexus/carotid sinus on the side of the neck, or the brachial plexus and clavicle on the torso) with relatively little timing requirements. From there, while I slide into my standing arm lock, the opponent is not going to be able to generate any large degrees of force since then are likely stunned, and even if they aren’t too badly stunned they still aren’t going to have the time or distance to wind up and generate another large burst of kinetic energy/momentum. So, they are essentially stunned and their body is “at rest”, which allows me to lock on the armbar and them to feel it and comply (or try to squirm out maybe, but again that just leads to plans “B” or “C”) much more consistently.

86

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

[/quote]

Naw. Last time I tried an armbar in a fight I broke the dude’s arm (then face planted him. He was a nast f-tard so not to worry.) Pain compliance relies on them being able to process what you are doing fast enough for them to have a change of heart. In the case of LEO’s. the suspect is usually trying to get away and knows there are more LEO’s on the way (or should be). This gives the officer a chance to apply a pain compliance, because there is a well-defined and known context. The officer is trying to restrain the suspect, not execute him.

– jj[/quote]

I’m not going to deny that some people will break their own joints in the heat of battle, but, in general if people are struggling, you don’t have the lock on correctly. Pain compliance is not a voluntary reaction, in fact, the reflex arc created by the nerves which sense pain actually does not even involve the brain, but instead only the nerves themselves, the interneuron in the spinal cord and the associated motor neuron which controls the necessary muscles. Whether we’re talking about attacking the Golgi Tendon Organ right above the Olecranon process for a standing armbar, stretching the muscles of the shoulder joint to their limit during a Kimura, or any other joint manipulation, the associated pain compliance is totally involuntary (again assuming that you actually have the lock on right and they are feeling pain). That’s one of the great things about joint locks, people respond in a very predictable way to them since their bodies are reacting in an involuntary fashion.

Like Robert said though, smaller joints like fingers have a much greater chance of winding up breaking, due to their smaller less stable structure, than larger joints like the elbow or shoulder. That’s one of the reasons why when you are drilling finger locks, you are taught to avoid locking a single finger as it is likely to snap (you instead always lock several).[/quote]

This is how I was taught as well. However, in practical application, even if you are fairly skilled, it seems to me that the likelihood of applying a joint lock less than perfectly while in a real, dynamic situation is pretty high. I can absolutely see and have experienced how this might result in a.) the person being able to resist/escape or b.) the force coming on so suddenly that pain compliance doesn’t take effect before the damage is done. This somewhat plays into what Robert said about training for where to go when your technique fails.

Not really arguing against joint locks, I am a fan in the right application. Just trying to further the discussion.[/quote]

From my experience as an LEO, it is very hard to apply a joint lock on a resisting individual, especially if they are drunk, high, or enraged. 75 percent of “help calls” usually begin with the officer trying to apply a “lock”. Now, granted, most are not as highly trained as they should be, and get comfortable having the radio save their ass, but,it is very difficult on the street, especially in the summer, when evryone is sweaty. In my experience, you first had to break their “mindset” either by force (kick to back of the knee, ASP baton strike to elbow, etc…before you could lock them down for cuffing. Not stating it cannot be done,because, I am sure some of you could do it,it just never goes down on the street the way it does on a mat. [/quote]

Yes, I agree, though there are some locks that are more easily applied right off the bat than others.

In Aikijutsu they have a saying that you have to “earn the right to lock someone”, which usually means striking them first to stun them or get their mind pre-occupied to give you time to set the lock. I generally totally agree with this concept and many of the traditional JJ systems also involve and incorporate “atemis” (strikes) as distractions to allow them the time to lock.

Again this isn’t always the case and there are circumstances and situations where you might be able to put a lock on someone without having to strike them first, but even then you’re generally going to have to precede it with some sort of balance disruption, verbal distraction, or at the very least be very fast and nontelegraphic about it.

87

Throw 'em to the ground, land on top. Spin into side control apply figure 4 arm lock. Sit on their head as you reef against the natural bend and rotation of elbow shoulder. Gross motor locks that effect the elbow/shoulder at the same time seem to work just fine (as does choking the shit out of someone)often even if they’re ox strong or know the counters assuming your violence of motion is high.

But man, those fine motor locks that seem to typify the sterotypical aikido or some Japanese JJ? They can work (IMO) for pain compliance depending on where you’re at in the arch of the encounter.

But honestly aikido against an opponent who actually resists looks like judo. Judo without a gi looks like catch-as-catch-can (submission) wrestling.

Might as well as cut out all the middle men.

Of course I have to admit, if you get someone in a leg triangle anything and the angles right you could just start snapping fingers off the hand of the trapped arm. That’d hurt. I bet it’d take the fight right out of them. Seems more like torture than fighting–but if they started it; screw 'em.

Just like when you write the police report that standing head n arm choke becomes a “headlock” from high school wrestling.

88

oops, double point post to a degree–sorry about that Sentoguy, I was typing as you posted or I wouldn’t have bothered

89

[quote]idaho wrote:
A very involved discussion that examines a lot of different perpectives from the original question, but, since, military and special forces training has been breached,I know that you are just starting your training in the striking arts or you would not have posted the question. Since I currently make my living instructing foreign units and police in close quarter combat, I dont want you to assume the training is the same as “self-defense”. I have been forunate to work and train with some highly qualified units, including the US, British SAS, German GSG9, FBI/HRT,etc…

The overriding factor in all this was the emphasis on killing someone as efficiently as possible. period. In fact, watching Irish’s video, my first thought was how easy and fast you could shove a push dagger into his throat. That does not mean I am twisted in any way, it just means, in my current situation, thats how I react and think about threats.

As others have pointed out, the emphasis on training for the special units and police tactical teams is weapons and rightly so, other people are trying to kill you with them. But, in the training that I am responsible for, I always include striking and grappling. I believe it builds confidence and mental toughness, which as others have pointed out, is the real key to surviving any situation.

OP: If you were serious about really wanting to know about the benefits of MT as a self defense art, then go back and read and study the responses you received. A lot of very skilled martial artists(I am using this ascatch all term) replied with good instruction and personal experiences. How about coming back on giving a “thank you”?

IMHO: Really good observations and experiences, I think this one deserves a place up top.

[/quote]

Thanks for sharing. I think that anyone who is being realistic about combat (be it for civilian use or military/LEO) is going to have to admit that gaining proficiency in striking and grappling is going to go a long way towards developing both your physical and mental toughness and give you a leg up on others without such skills. Even if we are talking about people who generally are armed, have back-up who is armed, and are looking to finish their opponents ASAP and not dance around and box/kickbox with them or roll around on the ground wrestling/sport BJJ style, those skills can be of great benefit to them.

90

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

[/quote]

Naw. Last time I tried an armbar in a fight I broke the dude’s arm (then face planted him. He was a nast f-tard so not to worry.) Pain compliance relies on them being able to process what you are doing fast enough for them to have a change of heart. In the case of LEO’s. the suspect is usually trying to get away and knows there are more LEO’s on the way (or should be). This gives the officer a chance to apply a pain compliance, because there is a well-defined and known context. The officer is trying to restrain the suspect, not execute him.

– jj[/quote]

I’m not going to deny that some people will break their own joints in the heat of battle, but, in general if people are struggling, you don’t have the lock on correctly. Pain compliance is not a voluntary reaction, in fact, the reflex arc created by the nerves which sense pain actually does not even involve the brain, but instead only the nerves themselves, the interneuron in the spinal cord and the associated motor neuron which controls the necessary muscles. Whether we’re talking about attacking the Golgi Tendon Organ right above the Olecranon process for a standing armbar, stretching the muscles of the shoulder joint to their limit during a Kimura, or any other joint manipulation, the associated pain compliance is totally involuntary (again assuming that you actually have the lock on right and they are feeling pain). That’s one of the great things about joint locks, people respond in a very predictable way to them since their bodies are reacting in an involuntary fashion.

Like Robert said though, smaller joints like fingers have a much greater chance of winding up breaking, due to their smaller less stable structure, than larger joints like the elbow or shoulder. That’s one of the reasons why when you are drilling finger locks, you are taught to avoid locking a single finger as it is likely to snap (you instead always lock several).[/quote]

This is how I was taught as well. However, in practical application, even if you are fairly skilled, it seems to me that the likelihood of applying a joint lock less than perfectly while in a real, dynamic situation is pretty high. I can absolutely see and have experienced how this might result in a.) the person being able to resist/escape or b.) the force coming on so suddenly that pain compliance doesn’t take effect before the damage is done. This somewhat plays into what Robert said about training for where to go when your technique fails.

Not really arguing against joint locks, I am a fan in the right application. Just trying to further the discussion.[/quote]

From my experience as an LEO, it is very hard to apply a joint lock on a resisting individual, especially if they are drunk, high, or enraged. 75 percent of “help calls” usually begin with the officer trying to apply a “lock”. Now, granted, most are not as highly trained as they should be, and get comfortable having the radio save their ass, but,it is very difficult on the street, especially in the summer, when evryone is sweaty. In my experience, you first had to break their “mindset” either by force (kick to back of the knee, ASP baton strike to elbow, etc…before you could lock them down for cuffing. Not stating it cannot be done,because, I am sure some of you could do it,it just never goes down on the street the way it does on a mat. [/quote]

Yes, I agree, though there are some locks that are more easily applied right off the bat than others.

In Aikijutsu they have a saying that you have to “earn the right to lock someone”, which usually means striking them first to stun them or get their mind pre-occupied to give you time to set the lock. I generally totally agree with this concept and many of the traditional JJ systems also involve and incorporate “atemis” (strikes) as distractions to allow them the time to lock.

Again this isn’t always the case and there are circumstances and situations where you might be able to put a lock on someone without having to strike them first, but even then you’re generally going to have to precede it with some sort of balance disruption, verbal distraction, or at the very least be very fast and nontelegraphic about it.[/quote]

Sento,
Great post. I am glad you brought up verbal commands because I was going to state that in my first post but must have had a “brain lock” since I left it out. It is always useful to “scream” your commands in the street, sometimes that will break their mindset, plus, you never know when you may need a witness. I have used the technique to calm low volume domestics and break up teenage pissing matches, its been less successful on enraged adults.

91

[quote]pulphero wrote:
Throw 'em to the ground, land on top. Spin into side control apply figure 4 arm lock. Sit on their head as you reef against the natural bend and rotation of elbow shoulder. Gross motor locks that effect the elbow/shoulder at the same time seem to work just fine (as does choking the shit out of someone)often even if they’re ox strong or know the counters assuming your violence of motion is high.
[/quote]

Americana and Kimura from side control are great locks for real fighting as they don’t require that you sacrifice position to get them (unlike falling back for a traditional supine armbar) and given the right circumstances I’d use them. But, I’m not going to the ground with anyone if I’m not certain that it’s just the two of us, and given that most “fights” occur in public places where there are other people around, that’s not going to be the case for a lot of people.

For me it may be a lot of times because I’m married and no longer go out to bars or clubs where a lot of fights start, so my chances of getting into fights, especially with large numbers of people involved has gone down. But for a lot of (especially young) men, they need to be aware of that danger.

Right, like you said, depending on where you are at in an encounter they may or may not work. They are also going to require a lot more training and timing to pull off. But they can still be effective given the right training and circumstances.

True. Though, where I’m from at least, people don’t walk around in only their underwear on an annual basis. Much of the year people are wearing, at least light, jackets, and pants. So, Gi training actually better mimics “real” conditions than nogi does. Not that I don’t train nogi techniques (you don’t ever want to completely rely on any one condition always being true), but I don’t like the whole “Gi is unrealistic because people don’t walk around in gi’s. Nogi is better” argument.

Gouge the eyes. The head is right there trapped and can’t escape. Also pretty much the easiest and most surefire way to stop someone stacking you or who is about to try to pick you up and slam you.

92

Any jacket helps a throw, and collar chokes can take people off guard. Gi’s are actually clothes that just don’t rip/tear as easily–I agree.

I actually agree with your line of thinking in general. I’m also now married and sometime around when I turned 33 or so, people just stopped screwing with me in bars. At 5’8" I was always the perfect size for bullies; small enough they thought they could take me, but big enough they wouldn’t feel stupid doing it. Part of it was lifting (I moved up from 145lbs to 190 over the course of a bit) but mostly I guess at some point I started to look like I was no longer part of the “fight scene” (or something) and I just wasn’t punked any more.

The one thing I will say, which will seem like the opposite about my complaint of the military getting “too” bjj, is the point everyone keeps making about having more than one person around and thus you should ‘never’ go to the ground.

I’ve been in a lot fights, or a modest amount if you’re not a soccer hooligan–that can sound like macho BS, which I hope nobody thinks I’m trying to do–and I always took 'em to the ground.

The main point is I myself was never alone. My friends were always like-minded individuals for the most part (exercise orientated and fighting technique curious) and always with me. I never went to a bar alone.

I also learned (growing up in a logging town) that people watching bar fights have very stupid senses of victory. Whomever was on top when they were pulled apart “won” and whoever had a bloody nose “lost” if the other guy wasn’t also bleeding.

It was stupid but once I realized it I always did a trip and some strike to a nose and suddenly “I was winning” every time. It was ludicrous in reality but I’d figured out how to manipulate the environment I was in.

At no point did I not have friends who I knew had my back.

As someone pointed out upstream the term “self defense” gets twisted and convoluted in our understanding of what we’re talking about. For 99% of my experience “self defense” meant having to take zero shit from Alpha Male wannabes in bars.

The one time I got mugged and I was by myself the one guy was trying to hold me as a group ran toward us. I threw a low sloppy snap kick that missed but forced him back, creating space. I then juked and ran like Ben Johnson. It was successful “self defense” because I didn’t get jumped. It looked more like high school track.

Avoiding trouble is the best way to go–but if you don’t want to give in to every drunk bully in a club you may find “defending” yourself has a broader and less lethal connotation. I still consider it “learning how to defend yourself” but with my 5 friends glaring at his 5 friends I myself never found a problem taking those haymaker throwing chest thumpers to the ground. (Just never from bottom position).

The post ran on longer than I meant to–but this definition of how people understand their own use of “defense” is pretty germane to the discussion and sometimes the non-sport MA guys come across like every encounter is going to be life or death instead of smug satisfaction vs. a black eye.

It’s important to know what you’re looking for and why before you commit to a style.

93

[quote]pulphero wrote:
Any jacket helps a throw, and collar chokes can take people off guard. Gi’s are actually clothes that just don’t rip/tear as easily–I agree.

I actually agree with your line of thinking in general. I’m also now married and sometime around when I turned 33 or so, people just stopped screwing with me in bars. At 5’8" I was always the perfect size for bullies; small enough they thought they could take me, but big enough they wouldn’t feel stupid doing it. Part of it was lifting (I moved up from 145lbs to 190 over the course of a bit) but mostly I guess at some point I started to look like I was no longer part of the “fight scene” (or something) and I just wasn’t punked any more.

The one thing I will say, which will seem like the opposite about my complaint of the military getting “too” bjj, is the point everyone keeps making about having more than one person around and thus you should ‘never’ go to the ground.

I’ve been in a lot fights, or a modest amount if you’re not a soccer hooligan–that can sound like macho BS, which I hope nobody thinks I’m trying to do–and I always took 'em to the ground.

The main point is I myself was never alone. My friends were always like-minded individuals for the most part (exercise orientated and fighting technique curious) and always with me. I never went to a bar alone.

I also learned (growing up in a logging town) that people watching bar fights have very stupid senses of victory. Whomever was on top when they were pulled apart “won” and whoever had a bloody nose “lost” if the other guy wasn’t also bleeding.

It was stupid but once I realized it I always did a trip and some strike to a nose and suddenly “I was winning” every time. It was ludicrous in reality but I’d figured out how to manipulate the environment I was in.

At no point did I not have friends who I knew had my back.

As someone pointed out upstream the term “self defense” gets twisted and convoluted in our understanding of what we’re talking about. For 99% of my experience “self defense” meant having to take zero shit from Alpha Male wannabes in bars.

The one time I got mugged and I was by myself the one guy was trying to hold me as a group ran toward us. I threw a low sloppy snap kick that missed but forced him back, creating space. I then juked and ran like Ben Johnson. It was successful “self defense” because I didn’t get jumped. It looked more like high school track.

Avoiding trouble is the best way to go–but if you don’t want to give in to every drunk bully in a club you may find “defending” yourself has a broader and less lethal connotation. I still consider it “learning how to defend yourself” but with my 5 friends glaring at his 5 friends I myself never found a problem taking those haymaker throwing chest thumpers to the ground. (Just never from bottom position).

The post ran on longer than I meant to–but this definition of how people understand their own use of “defense” is pretty germane to the discussion and sometimes the non-sport MA guys come across like every encounter is going to be life or death instead of smug satisfaction vs. a black eye.

It’s important to know what you’re looking for and why before you commit to a style.

[/quote]

I totally agree that if you’ve got a bunch of people who are going to stand around and let two people “duke it out” then ground fighting can be very effective (that’s essentially what all those videos the Gracies posted years ago, like the one where Rickson fights the guy on the beach showcased). When I’m talking about multiple people involved, I’m talking more about all out bar room brawls where chaos is surrounding you, and you never know if one of the opponent’s buddies is going to kick you in the head or smash a beer bottle/pool cue/bar stool over your head as you’re busy busting the other guy’s shoulder with an Americana.

What you’re describing I would call more of a one on one duel with witnesses.

94

I understand.

I would also like to agree that getting trampled in a crowd is a very poor form of defending yourself, lol.

Spot on.

95

[quote]idaho wrote:
A very involved discussion that examines a lot of different perpectives from the original question, but, since, military and special forces training has been breached,I know that you are just starting your training in the striking arts or you would not have posted the question. Since I currently make my living instructing foreign units and police in close quarter combat, I dont want you to assume the training is the same as “self-defense”. I have been forunate to work and train with some highly qualified units, including the US, British SAS, German GSG9, FBI/HRT,etc…

The overriding factor in all this was the emphasis on killing someone as efficiently as possible. period. In fact, watching Irish’s video, my first thought was how easy and fast you could shove a push dagger into his throat. That does not mean I am twisted in any way, it just means, in my current situation, thats how I react and think about threats.

As others have pointed out, the emphasis on training for the special units and police tactical teams is weapons and rightly so, other people are trying to kill you with them. But, in the training that I am responsible for, I always include striking and grappling. I believe it builds confidence and mental toughness, which as others have pointed out, is the real key to surviving any situation.

OP: If you were serious about really wanting to know about the benefits of MT as a self defense art, then go back and read and study the responses you received. A lot of very skilled martial artists(I am using this ascatch all term) replied with good instruction and personal experiences. How about coming back on giving a “thank you”?

IMHO: Really good observations and experiences, I think this one deserves a place up top.

  [/quote]

Great post.

As a side point, I agree that teaching unarmed fighting builds mental toughness and confidence, and is worth it’s weight for those reasons alone, but there are those of us who, because of our jobs, actually cannot carry or be armed in any real sort of way no matter how badly we need it.

As a journalist, some of my compatriots can find themselves in really, really bad situations in really, really bad countries, and carrying a gun or other weaponry is going to seriously jeopardize not only their press status, but their status as “noncombatants.”

Should I ever be reporting from overseas, I will have far less scruples about this, but the threat is there, and being extraordinarily proficient with your hands can only help… because MAN do people get angry about what you write in the papers sometimes.

96

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
A very involved discussion that examines a lot of different perpectives from the original question, but, since, military and special forces training has been breached,I know that you are just starting your training in the striking arts or you would not have posted the question. Since I currently make my living instructing foreign units and police in close quarter combat, I dont want you to assume the training is the same as “self-defense”. I have been forunate to work and train with some highly qualified units, including the US, British SAS, German GSG9, FBI/HRT,etc…

The overriding factor in all this was the emphasis on killing someone as efficiently as possible. period. In fact, watching Irish’s video, my first thought was how easy and fast you could shove a push dagger into his throat. That does not mean I am twisted in any way, it just means, in my current situation, thats how I react and think about threats.

As others have pointed out, the emphasis on training for the special units and police tactical teams is weapons and rightly so, other people are trying to kill you with them. But, in the training that I am responsible for, I always include striking and grappling. I believe it builds confidence and mental toughness, which as others have pointed out, is the real key to surviving any situation.

OP: If you were serious about really wanting to know about the benefits of MT as a self defense art, then go back and read and study the responses you received. A lot of very skilled martial artists(I am using this ascatch all term) replied with good instruction and personal experiences. How about coming back on giving a “thank you”?

IMHO: Really good observations and experiences, I think this one deserves a place up top.

  [/quote]

Great post.

As a side point, I agree that teaching unarmed fighting builds mental toughness and confidence, and is worth it’s weight for those reasons alone, but there are those of us who, because of our jobs, actually cannot carry or be armed in any real sort of way no matter how badly we need it.

As a journalist, some of my compatriots can find themselves in really, really bad situations in really, really bad countries, and carrying a gun or other weaponry is going to seriously jeopardize not only their press status, but their status as “noncombatants.”

Should I ever be reporting from overseas, I will have far less scruples about this, but the threat is there, and being extraordinarily proficient with your hands can only help… because MAN do people get angry about what you write in the papers sometimes.[/quote]

You brought up a very good point about the lack of weapons, and one of the major reasons that I feel unarmed fighting of any style should be trained as much as possible. Too often I see a unrealistic attitude toward being armed, especially in individuals who have only theoretical knowledge of violence. The attitude is “why is that shit inportant, I carry a gun” I have heard that many times and I always think" well, what if it jamms? It is a mechanical devise, you know, just like brake pads on a vehicle, they can wear out, or, someone like Sento can just take it away from you… to use myself as an example: I am armed very heavily everyday, 7 days a week, except when I travel back to the US. Then I am going through some middle eastern airport, packed to the rim with every third world citizen, and I am armed only with a Bic pen. talk about feeling naked. So, I am glad, I can at least fall back on the limited skills that I have, and know that I have trained hard and I am at least in shape. You are right about your profession, if you want the good stuff, you are in the thick of things, and the scary thing is, you have to rely on someone else to provide security or fire support…shit, for those who have never been in that situation, they have no ideal of the stress involved.

97

You a private security contractor?

98

[quote]pulphero wrote:
You a private security contractor?[/quote]

I was from 2003 until September 2007, then went to work for the Feds.

99

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
A very involved discussion that examines a lot of different perpectives from the original question, but, since, military and special forces training has been breached,I know that you are just starting your training in the striking arts or you would not have posted the question. Since I currently make my living instructing foreign units and police in close quarter combat, I dont want you to assume the training is the same as “self-defense”. I have been forunate to work and train with some highly qualified units, including the US, British SAS, German GSG9, FBI/HRT,etc…

The overriding factor in all this was the emphasis on killing someone as efficiently as possible. period. In fact, watching Irish’s video, my first thought was how easy and fast you could shove a push dagger into his throat. That does not mean I am twisted in any way, it just means, in my current situation, thats how I react and think about threats.

As others have pointed out, the emphasis on training for the special units and police tactical teams is weapons and rightly so, other people are trying to kill you with them. But, in the training that I am responsible for, I always include striking and grappling. I believe it builds confidence and mental toughness, which as others have pointed out, is the real key to surviving any situation.

OP: If you were serious about really wanting to know about the benefits of MT as a self defense art, then go back and read and study the responses you received. A lot of very skilled martial artists(I am using this ascatch all term) replied with good instruction and personal experiences. How about coming back on giving a “thank you”?

IMHO: Really good observations and experiences, I think this one deserves a place up top.

  [/quote]

Great post.

As a side point, I agree that teaching unarmed fighting builds mental toughness and confidence, and is worth it’s weight for those reasons alone, but there are those of us who, because of our jobs, actually cannot carry or be armed in any real sort of way no matter how badly we need it.

As a journalist, some of my compatriots can find themselves in really, really bad situations in really, really bad countries, and carrying a gun or other weaponry is going to seriously jeopardize not only their press status, but their status as “noncombatants.”

Should I ever be reporting from overseas, I will have far less scruples about this, but the threat is there, and being extraordinarily proficient with your hands can only help… because MAN do people get angry about what you write in the papers sometimes.[/quote]

You brought up a very good point about the lack of weapons, and one of the major reasons that I feel unarmed fighting of any style should be trained as much as possible. Too often I see a unrealistic attitude toward being armed, especially in individuals who have only theoretical knowledge of violence. The attitude is “why is that shit inportant, I carry a gun” I have heard that many times and I always think" well, what if it jamms? It is a mechanical devise, you know, just like brake pads on a vehicle, they can wear out, or, someone like Sento can just take it away from you… to use myself as an example: I am armed very heavily everyday, 7 days a week, except when I travel back to the US. Then I am going through some middle eastern airport, packed to the rim with every third world citizen, and I am armed only with a Bic pen. talk about feeling naked. So, I am glad, I can at least fall back on the limited skills that I have, and know that I have trained hard and I am at least in shape. You are right about your profession, if you want the good stuff, you are in the thick of things, and the scary thing is, you have to rely on someone else to provide security or fire support…shit, for those who have never been in that situation, they have no ideal of the stress involved. [/quote]

Not to mention the fact that even if you are armed, unless you know you are in a fight ahead of time, effectively accessing/deploying a firearm at very close quarters can be difficult at best. Especially if it’s the pistol in a concealed carry and/or retention rig that many people seem to think is some near magical be all end all fight stopper.

In fact, I would venture that if all of a person’s training is gun-centric they may very well be more inclined to waste the crucial opening seconds of a spontaneous, close quarter ambush fumbling for a weapon that isn’t necessarily going to be all that effective anymore anyway, as opposed to going hands on immediately and either solving the problem or at least creating enough time and distance to draw effectively and re-engage the threat with a firearm.

I am a cake eating civilian, so take that for what it’s worth.

100

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
A very involved discussion that examines a lot of different perpectives from the original question, but, since, military and special forces training has been breached,I know that you are just starting your training in the striking arts or you would not have posted the question. Since I currently make my living instructing foreign units and police in close quarter combat, I dont want you to assume the training is the same as “self-defense”. I have been forunate to work and train with some highly qualified units, including the US, British SAS, German GSG9, FBI/HRT,etc…

The overriding factor in all this was the emphasis on killing someone as efficiently as possible. period. In fact, watching Irish’s video, my first thought was how easy and fast you could shove a push dagger into his throat. That does not mean I am twisted in any way, it just means, in my current situation, thats how I react and think about threats.

As others have pointed out, the emphasis on training for the special units and police tactical teams is weapons and rightly so, other people are trying to kill you with them. But, in the training that I am responsible for, I always include striking and grappling. I believe it builds confidence and mental toughness, which as others have pointed out, is the real key to surviving any situation.

OP: If you were serious about really wanting to know about the benefits of MT as a self defense art, then go back and read and study the responses you received. A lot of very skilled martial artists(I am using this ascatch all term) replied with good instruction and personal experiences. How about coming back on giving a “thank you”?

IMHO: Really good observations and experiences, I think this one deserves a place up top.

  [/quote]

Great post.

As a side point, I agree that teaching unarmed fighting builds mental toughness and confidence, and is worth it’s weight for those reasons alone, but there are those of us who, because of our jobs, actually cannot carry or be armed in any real sort of way no matter how badly we need it.

As a journalist, some of my compatriots can find themselves in really, really bad situations in really, really bad countries, and carrying a gun or other weaponry is going to seriously jeopardize not only their press status, but their status as “noncombatants.”

Should I ever be reporting from overseas, I will have far less scruples about this, but the threat is there, and being extraordinarily proficient with your hands can only help… because MAN do people get angry about what you write in the papers sometimes.[/quote]

You brought up a very good point about the lack of weapons, and one of the major reasons that I feel unarmed fighting of any style should be trained as much as possible. Too often I see a unrealistic attitude toward being armed, especially in individuals who have only theoretical knowledge of violence. The attitude is “why is that shit inportant, I carry a gun” I have heard that many times and I always think" well, what if it jamms? It is a mechanical devise, you know, just like brake pads on a vehicle, they can wear out, or, someone like Sento can just take it away from you… to use myself as an example: I am armed very heavily everyday, 7 days a week, except when I travel back to the US. Then I am going through some middle eastern airport, packed to the rim with every third world citizen, and I am armed only with a Bic pen. talk about feeling naked. So, I am glad, I can at least fall back on the limited skills that I have, and know that I have trained hard and I am at least in shape. You are right about your profession, if you want the good stuff, you are in the thick of things, and the scary thing is, you have to rely on someone else to provide security or fire support…shit, for those who have never been in that situation, they have no ideal of the stress involved. [/quote]

Great points by you and Irish about the realities of not always being armed with conventional weapons. I also like your point about the realities of “operator error”, or mechanical failure (in the case of firearms). Another danger is what we call “weapon over-reliance”. If your whole defense gameplan hinges on you being able to use the weapon effectively, you may miss out on other more appropriate tools should your weapon become neutralized. There is also the truth that you are going to need enough time or distance to actually access your weapon (be it gun, blade, mace/pepper spray, taser, etc…) and you are going to need to do so under duress/stress and potentially under fire (whether that be actual weapon assaults or unarmed strikes, takedown/grappling attempts, or things like clawing, gauging, biting, or other “dirty”/primal types of attacks).

Most firearms training courses do not cover these types of realities or skills, and even if you’re lucky/smart enough to find one that does, you must consistently train them in order to truly develop and maintain such skills.