Muay Thai for Self Defense

Bigger Stronger Leaner
61

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Cops can pin people all day long. They have handcuffs. Do you walk around with a handcuff?
[/quote]

I honestly don’t need them. Once I get someone down and pinned, I can hold them there all day long if I want to. And any good Jiu-Jitsu person can do the same.
[/quote]

The handcuff thing was more of a joke as to how cops can afford to pin people down onto the ground without resorting to actual violence to permanently incapacitate them. They always have backup to help restrain an individual or an alternate way to restrain people without having to break limbs, i.e handcuffs =P

62

Read the first page, read the 2nd to catch up.

For my 2-cents I have to agree that the best is the one you’re really going to do and what most “guys” mean by “self-defense” is bar fight. But the non ahole ones mean “keep the bully from beating me up in a club” which isn’t h-2-h in An Bar province but also isn’t a whole lot of fun.

Boxing, when practiced is awesome. A judo throw on a mat is sport and one on the floor is a fight ender.

Gross motor skills rock when you’re a)scared b) drunk c) scared & drunk. Fine motor skills suck and the goes for striking or grappling.

But two things, one an observation and the other a question.

One, it seems that one is either naturally a grappler and drawn to it or one is a striker and drawn to it. Grapplers in America join wrestling then branch out. Strikers see Rocky and move heaven and earth to find a boxing gym or see Enter the Dragon and save their paper route money to learn a traditional martial art.

The two prototypes never agree. Unless they’re not ass hats in which case they admit each camp has valid points.

Two; what the hell happened to Krav Maga? I’m 42; when I first heard of KM it was Israeli commando version of the Applegate Combatives taught to the OSS in WWII–all the throat strikes and tosses to the floor followed by heel stomps to the temples. (that is, pretty cool in a mugging, not so great in court after a street fight)

The whole reason I felt so compelled to post is because the conversation in this thread is making it sound like its become Strip Mall TKD or something when I wasn’t looking. This really happen?

63

I should admit that I’m old enough to be really pissed at Royce Gracie and mma.

For years strikers would square off against you then you’d do a double leg, sit on their belly and punch them 'til they gave up. It was called the “school yard” move and it always worked when Chuck Norris, Ali, and Bruce were big.

Now they call it ground n pound and people know how to sprawl n brawl? That just sucks.

Thanks for keeping the well kept secret of taking people to the ground and just spreading it around so everyone knows it.

64

Some excellent conversation here. Truly excellent.

65

[quote]pulphero wrote:
Read the first page, read the 2nd to catch up.

For my 2-cents I have to agree that the best is the one you’re really going to do and what most “guys” mean by “self-defense” is bar fight. But the non ahole ones mean “keep the bully from beating me up in a club” which isn’t h-2-h in An Bar province but also isn’t a whole lot of fun.

Boxing, when practiced is awesome. A judo throw on a mat is sport and one on the floor is a fight ender.

Gross motor skills rock when you’re a)scared b) drunk c) scared & drunk. Fine motor skills suck and the goes for striking or grappling.

But two things, one an observation and the other a question.

One, it seems that one is either naturally a grappler and drawn to it or one is a striker and drawn to it. Grapplers in America join wrestling then branch out. Strikers see Rocky and move heaven and earth to find a boxing gym or see Enter the Dragon and save their paper route money to learn a traditional martial art.

The two prototypes never agree. Unless they’re not ass hats in which case they admit each camp has valid points.

Two; what the hell happened to Krav Maga? I’m 42; when I first heard of KM it was Israeli commando version of the Applegate Combatives taught to the OSS in WWII–all the throat strikes and tosses to the floor followed by heel stomps to the temples. (that is, pretty cool in a mugging, not so great in court after a street fight)

The whole reason I felt so compelled to post is because the conversation in this thread is making it sound like its become Strip Mall TKD or something when I wasn’t looking. This really happen?[/quote]

haha great post and I totally agree. I don’t know what that inclination towards either striking or grappling comes from, but I’d imagine that it’s a combination of what you grew up with (i.e. your dad boxed/wrestled, was a competitive shooter, in the marines, etc.), what you gravitated towards in the movies and in media (Rocky, Karate Kid…some wrestling movie) and your size.

I know for me it was Rocky, absolutely, all day. Since I was old enough to punch I been going to the body just because it’s said in that movie, and even before I could box I could take people down with a body shot because that’s all I ever did.

And in reality, if you’re really well trained in one martial art, be it boxing, wrestling, BJJ, judo, etc. odds are is you’re going to whoop the guy in front of you because you’re just used to fighting. Most guys aren’t used to that kind of physical contact period… so you’re going to have a leg up.

In regards to Krav, well… it kinda DID turn into that when you weren’t looking. It got too big, it got “sanctioning organizations” and had breakaway organizations and blah blah blah, and now it’s become a trademarked moneymaker.

Really, it wasn’t much different from those old combatives, but it’s been watered down for the masses.

Marc Macyoung wrote about this, and your post echoes what he said almost to the word.


Military Application
In the mid 1980s I had a chance to work out with a former Israeli Commando. Putting it mildly, this guy made me squeak. He moved me into positions that not only I couldn’t fight back from, but, if he’d zapped me, I would have shattered. Not break, shattered. This stuff was not to inflict pain, it was to injure and kill. And to do it A.S.A.P…

This was Krav Maga and it was effective.

Fast forward 20 years and all of a sudden this ‘Israeli Commando Fighting System’ hit the martial arts scene. Wowie! Kazowie! This is SOOOOO dangerous that your dick will grow three inches from just walking in the door. Okay, so that’s an over-exaggeration. What isn’t is the attitude of: It’s got to be good, because the Israeli military teaches it to all of their service men and women. (Notice the subtle downgrading already happening? It went from commando to service men in nearly the same sentence.)

When I saw what these guys were doing I thought to myself “What the hell? That don’t look nothing like what made me squeak.”

What it looked like was the typical muay Thai/boxing blend with BJJ thrown in that I think of when someone says ‘mixed martial arts.’ Yet it’s a deadly Israeli military fighting style dontcha know?

Well except the dude who twisted me around never threw a muay Thai kick at me. Come to think of it, he wasn’t really hot to roll around on the ground with me either. His intent was to break me in half by pile-driving me INTO the ground; it wasn’t to get dirty by rolling around on it while trying to dominate me.

“This is Krav?” I asked.

“Oh yeah it’s what the Israeli commandos use. It’s the deadlist.” was the answer.

Nooooo. No, it wasn’t. In fact, what I was seeing – significantly – lacked all those little tweaks, twists and pulls that I’d come to recognize as inherent in ANY system designed to inflict serious injury onto your opponent. Breaking someone isn’t about how hard you hit, it’s about setting up the conditions that when you do hit, he breaks. I don’t care how hard you do it, the ‘snap, crackle, pop’ element was missing from what was presented as Krav.

But, but … it’s what they teach the Israeli Army!!!

Well, the entire military is NOT one giant Special Forces Unit so there’s a flaw in your logic right there. As in, you just said two totally different things as if they are one in the same. (There’s that downgrade.)

66

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:
I am an avid advocate of boxing as the original method of self defense (or at the very least the practice of striking someone very hard with the hands). That said, I believe the classic debate of which MA is appropriate for self defence must take into account the MA’s level of sophistication. When reading “sophistication” please see “degree of complexity, learning curve, reasonably required proficiency”. I don’t mean the martial art drinks tea with its pinky finger sticking out while reading Hemingway.

Striking someone with the hands is a base, instinctual reaction to being attacked and is perhaps the simplest form of human generated force after cracking a fart when no-ones looking. To teach someone how to strike with the hands as efficiently and powerfully as that student can manage is building off of that truly primal instinct and possibly the straightest road to self defence.

To add degrees of complexity to that, increases the learning curve and raises the reasonably expected required proficiency. These are variables that differ from style to style, but if you want a style or system that has the best ratio of DofC, LC and RRP then boxing is the system to go with. Or the system of staying in doors your whole life. But then you have your cats and potato collection to deal with.

Truthfully, when I read comments by Irish, London, Robert, Sento, Humble etc all y’all are clearly experienced martial artists and I can see you guys understand this perfectly well. And yes Irish. I called you an artist.

EDIT: and speaking of Hemingway, I understand he was quite the bar fighter too.

[/quote]

Great post.

Except the part where you call me an artist. I’m just a dumb drunk who likes punching things. No more.

67

[quote]Melvin Smiley wrote:
Where do you assholes hang out that getting jumping by multiple opponents is such a real possibility? lol[/quote]

Dude, I have been in fights - in fact, I would say, the majority of my best fights - that involved 20 guys and it looked like fucking Braveheart.

One specific instance I can think of was where as soon as the thing started I went charging in with my dick hanging out in the wind and I got hit in the mouth (chipped tooth still to this day), the back of the head, and above the eye inside two seconds and dropped.

I got saved by the grace of god that night.

Multiple opponents happens a lot when you’re living in the boomtown… you know, hanging out at bars, drinking a lot, hitting on chicks, and getting involved in shady things at places you shouldn’t be.

Not since grade school have I been in a fight where I was

  1. Sober
  2. Against only one other guy
68

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

You put it best when you said: ‘To put it plainly, having a good Plan A is often better and more workable than having shitty Plans A-D.’[/quote]

“A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.” - Patton

69

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Some excellent conversation here. Truly excellent.[/quote]

X2.From reading this converstaion, I am reminded of a old saying:“Always a student, never a master”. as Irish said, truely excellent. I hope the OP appreciates the time and advise everyone has shared. Watch your six.

70

p.s expanding on the “the military does it so it must be good!” - I just recently got into a fight with a “friend” who has been a infantryman for the past year and a bit, and now has an ego the size of a mansion because of it (yeah dont ask why, I have no idea, apparently getting treated like shit for shit pay and occasionally getting to play with guns is celebrity status to some people), I dropped him with a left hook as he charged at me and that was it.

Contrary to popular belief, most military hand to hand programs blow ass, not least because having a “program” doesn’t make you instantly a good fighter. It’d be like going to boxing classes two times a week for a piddly 3 months and expecting to know anything at all - you won’t and you’d still be a shit fighter. Might be a different story in 2 years time, but most don’t stick with anything that long.

With the military, even in your HIGH SPEED LOW DRAG jobs I’d bet the time spent on hand to hand training is even less than that, not least because it’d be a fucking stupid thing to waste time and money on when you have more relevant skills like learning how to shoot straight.

71

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
p.s expanding on the “the military does it so it must be good!” - I just recently got into a fight with a “friend” who has been a infantryman for the past year and a bit, and now has an ego the size of a mansion because of it (yeah dont ask why, I have no idea, apparently getting treated like shit for shit pay and occasionally getting to play with guns is celebrity status to some people), I dropped him with a left hook as he charged at me and that was it.

Contrary to popular belief, most military hand to hand programs blow ass, not least because having a “program” doesn’t make you instantly a good fighter. It’d be like going to boxing classes two times a week for a piddly 3 months and expecting to know anything at all - you won’t and you’d still be a shit fighter. Might be a different story in 2 years time, but most don’t stick with anything that long.

With the military, even in your HIGH SPEED LOW DRAG jobs I’d bet the time spent on hand to hand training is even less than that, not least because it’d be a fucking stupid thing to waste time and money on when you have more relevant skills like learning how to shoot straight.
[/quote]

Yeah, one of my fellow black belts recently (within the past couple years) joined the marines. This guy has been doing RMA since he was about 4-5 and is one of the toughest dudes I have ever met. Realistically could have gone pro in MMA, boxing, or Muay Thai had he wanted to (that’s what nearly 20 years of training with some of the best Martial arts and striking coaches in the world, combined with HARD training against people mostly bigger and better than you will do), but instead decided that he was more interested in RMA and so joined the Marines. I believe he’s looking to eventually go for Special Forces, but I might have heard him wrong last time we talked/trained together.

Anyhow, I asked him about the Marine’s hand to hand combat system and he wasn’t very impressed to be honest. Now, he admitted that the top guys who train the Marines were all good, but in his opinion that was due to years, and years of training that they had undergone before going in. The system itself wasn’t anything to write home about in his opinion.

What he did say though, and I think this is an important point, was that because he (and the Marines in general) had spent so much time training with their weapons (firearms), that he was probably more dangerous than ever (even though his unarmed skills may have been slightly less sharp than when he was training 5-6 days a week for 5-6 hours a day).

So, I think it’s important to realize that the military doesn’t place a huge emphasis on unarmed combatives training due to them arming their soldiers with guns, bayonettes, knives, and being in large groups of other soldiers who are similarly armed. They realize that there is the possibility that they may wind up in an unarmed fight, but because the probability is statistically small, the amount of training they receive in this department is also a small percentage of their total training time.

72

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Cops can pin people all day long. They have handcuffs. Do you walk around with a handcuff?
[/quote]

I honestly don’t need them. Once I get someone down and pinned, I can hold them there all day long if I want to. And any good Jiu-Jitsu person can do the same.
[/quote]

The handcuff thing was more of a joke as to how cops can afford to pin people down onto the ground without resorting to actual violence to permanently incapacitate them. They always have backup to help restrain an individual or an alternate way to restrain people without having to break limbs, i.e handcuffs =P
[/quote]

Haha, oops, guessed I missed the punch line then. Sometimes subtlety is hard to recognize through print.

I’ll agree with the point about the back-up, that’s a big advantage. In some cases though, the police might be my back-up.

For instance, let’s say I’m holding a house party and some jerk comes and crashes it. This person becomes beligerent, and begins harassing me and will not leave when asked. They eventually take a swing at me and I am forced to “convince them” of their mistake and decide that they were so offensive that I’m actually going to press charges on them (let’s say they broke a precious family heirloum, or damaged some property and I don’t know who they are by name or address). Well, in this case I might choose to pin them down and have someone call the police to come back me up and arrest them so that I can hold them accountable for their actions.

In this situation, I’m probably pretty safe that I have the superior numbers on my side (it’s my house and my party of my friends), and if I were to just smash them and then let them go, I might never get re-imbersed for my damaged property. Well, maybe from my insurance company, but who wants to deal with them? :wink: So “controlling and maintaining control for apprehension” might be the best course of action.

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[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
p.s expanding on the “the military does it so it must be good!” - I just recently got into a fight with a “friend” who has been a infantryman for the past year and a bit, and now has an ego the size of a mansion because of it (yeah dont ask why, I have no idea, apparently getting treated like shit for shit pay and occasionally getting to play with guns is celebrity status to some people), I dropped him with a left hook as he charged at me and that was it.

Contrary to popular belief, most military hand to hand programs blow ass, not least because having a “program” doesn’t make you instantly a good fighter. It’d be like going to boxing classes two times a week for a piddly 3 months and expecting to know anything at all - you won’t and you’d still be a shit fighter. Might be a different story in 2 years time, but most don’t stick with anything that long.

With the military, even in your HIGH SPEED LOW DRAG jobs I’d bet the time spent on hand to hand training is even less than that, not least because it’d be a fucking stupid thing to waste time and money on when you have more relevant skills like learning how to shoot straight.
[/quote]

I was in the infantry. Lot of big egos and its a fair enough take. IMO though the problem may not be ego, per se, in the sense we’re used to thinking of. It might be immaturity + alcohol + training. Or just being young. dumb, and full of cum as they called it.

The problem with infantry (grunt, marine, Ranger) is you spend all day long being trained to kill and trained to be aggressive. The aggression-suggestion mindset is crazy high. All we did (I was pre-911) was fight each other on the weekend after training to kill all day long. You kind of have to learn to “turn it off” or you think everyone is trying to be your enemy and you’d better ACT. It’d be kind of funny, unless they’re your friend or spouse.

My combatives training revolved around A) wondering why the hell I didn’t have a weapon in my hand B) sentry removal which doesn’t help C) a handful of moves designed to throw, trip, or occasionally strike to put the enemy on the ground while I was still standing then getting knife, pistol, dropped weapon, E-tool, helmet, rock, (or if I had to) my boots out.

While I stand by a standing hip and/or shoulder throw to the ground followed by vigorous stomping 100%–I could have been knocked out by a good boxer, or grappled out by a jits guy. The idea was weapons, weapons, physical fitness, weapons, h2h, push-ups, weapons.

You spend an hour or more a day or 3-5 times per week doing MA, or MMA? You could maybe fight anyone at any level. Could you shoot out to 500 yards? Set up a landmine? React to a complex ambush, communicate with air strikes? Coordinate the take down of a compound? Perform rapid first aid? Etc? Etc? (I don’t mean “you” by saying “you” I mean “in general”.)

Having said that, when I heard first the Army then the Marines in a big way embraced BJJ in such a huge manner early on (I assume because the first UFCs were style-vs-style instead of pro-mma) I was shocked they’d be that stupid. Shocked.

And I LOVE BJJ. All I really want to train is Judo/BJJ. But in my 50-60lbs pack after humping all day, in the middle of a building or on the side of a mountain while machine guns are going off right there? I would have thought OLD krav maga head n shoulders WAY WAY better even though in a “square off bar fight” I think BJJ can do what you need it to do in a big way.

Strike once someplace really soft (or the shins, no one respects a boot toe to the shins), create distance, draw your 9mm and start shooting. Or stabbing. Or hammering.

I’ve heard that after the 2nd battle of Fallujah where house-to-house/room-to-room combat was the norm the Army revamped its program. But last time I checked the marines almost doubled down on BJJ sorta system (I think because they can train it so hard without injury–but that’s 2nd hand info).

Just thoughts. Got a bit rambling but once I started pondering all the aspects I had enough coffee to just keep typing, lol, sorry 'bout that. EDIT: by knife I mean bayonet. I was never in a unit so high speed we carried knives or personal side arms. Honestly, the bayonet was wicked though.

74

The military point is spot on. The reason special forces units are elite and tend to always win, is because their primary skill is being ahead of the game and stacking the odds in their favour. They don’t train hand to hand all that seriously because, honestly, these guys don’t fuck up so badly in their line of work to ever find themselves in a one on one fist fight. I mean seriously, special forces dude gets jumped in a warzone without his gun? Only in the movies. In real life, the bad guy has died a hundred times before he even knows the soldier is there.

There’s a saying about the SAS that goes ‘there are two types of SAS soldier: little and mean, and big and mean’ and really that is an under appreciated aspect of any fight/self-defense situation. If you want to come away on top, whatever shit you know, you better be able to front up to your attacker with a level of aggression that makes him shit his pants,or chances are you’ll be a victim.

And again, I agree completely with Irish. Can’t remember a time since I was a kid where I have been in a one on one situation, other than by arrangement. Other people always get involved, and lets face it, in these situations, as Irish says, we’ve been on the sauce and are not operating at 100% capacity.

75

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Multiple opponents happens a lot when you’re living in the boomtown… you know, hanging out at bars, drinking a lot, hitting on chicks, and getting involved in shady things at places you shouldn’t be.

Not since grade school have I been in a fight where I was

  1. Sober
  2. Against only one other guy
    [/quote]

Yep haha I think the best art for self defense is “Don’t get hammered in skeezy bars”… but where’s the fun in that? lol

76

[quote]harmony72 wrote:
Is Muay thai good to learn if i want to defend myself in the streets? There’s seem to be a good school that teaches muay thai im my area. I’ve looked into krav maga, but the sense i get is that the schools doesnt seem that good. Of course im basing all this on reading online reviews and looking at the school’s websites.[/quote]

I got a second degree black belt in tae kwon do (bear with me please) and had a passable hobby as a kickboxer. I also did classical jujutsu and some boxing.

I’ve been in a few bad scrapes in real life. My assessment? Boxing is good since it teaches you to keep moving your feet under pressure. Pretty much all encounters ended up with some form of grappling (NOT floor fighting, last thing to try in a fight) and takedowns. The TKD wasn’t even on the radar because the bad guys didn’t attack me right. :o)

Meaning, that, like Muy Thai, the assumption is some form of frontal assault with a fair amount of space around you and some distance. My encounters were all in tight areas (bad guys arranged that), we ambushes from some funky angle and they well full-bore beatings – counter punching or kicking in a situation like that doesn’t work, but some form of wrapping (like a leg pick or sweep) works pretty well. (My record was TKO-ing a few guys with throws, choked one guy out but good and broke another guy’s arm with an armbar. All of those were grappling moves.)

That said, I did some Muy Thai and those guys are tough and at least on par with boxers as far as being able to handle abuse. Leg kicks are pretty useful (though need more space than they say and won’t work so well on someone who is a whole lot bigger than you.)

If the school is good, train with them. That is the value. See, the dirty secret of martial arts is that only 20% of one is useful, but which 20% varies by attacker and scenario. A good school teaches you how to gauge an attacker and figure out how to apply the right tool for the right job. A bad one has you do techniques (as in the ones that work great in class, but Bubba can ignore) without context.

$.02

– jj

77

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

[/quote]

Naw. Last time I tried an armbar in a fight I broke the dude’s arm (then face planted him. He was a nast f-tard so not to worry.) Pain compliance relies on them being able to process what you are doing fast enough for them to have a change of heart. In the case of LEO’s. the suspect is usually trying to get away and knows there are more LEO’s on the way (or should be). This gives the officer a chance to apply a pain compliance, because there is a well-defined and known context. The officer is trying to restrain the suspect, not execute him.

Social violence, i.e., roughing people up for status (lowering theirs or raising yours) is a very different kettle of fish from dealing with predatory violence which is different again from professional use of force applications. Social violence by and large turns into duels or fights (Irish’s video, e.g.) which is, I suspect, what the OP wants to know about. In that case totally do Muy Thai or boxing. Square off with other assholes in parking lots and own them. Just make sure you set up the game right so you win. Wasn’t simple? Choose your opponents well and you will never know defeat.

– jj

78

I really like the military comparisons being discussed here. In the same way that we hear these inept arguements about which martial art PWNS fools hardest, we also hear the ridiculous discussions about which military/special operations group/unit/etc is most effective on the battlefield. However, the common sense is strong in this thread.

As London pointed out, if a soldier of any level finds himself unarmed, isolated and outnumbered then someone has fucked up royally. It’s the same with civilians in a self defence scenario.

I mean, the Nazis where defeated, almost obliterated, by the allies by the end of World War II and yet we still study their Wehrmacht’s structure, chain of command and tactics. If anything we can learn that skilled and deadly opponents do still get beaten. If you don’t do your damnedest to set the terms of a fight as much as possible before it breaks out then it really doesn’t matter what martial art you practice. You can consider yourself fucked. And that is why, whether you have thoroughly prepared your attack and defence in advance, you must have the mental fortitude to weather whatever comes.

Case in point: Clinton Romesha. He has a Medal of Honor around his neck because he weathered the worst possible scenario to be in. To quote him “We weren’t going to be beat that day. You’re not going to back down in the face of adversity like that. We were just going to win? plain and simple.”

79

A very involved discussion that examines a lot of different perpectives from the original question, but, since, military and special forces training has been breached,I know that you are just starting your training in the striking arts or you would not have posted the question. Since I currently make my living instructing foreign units and police in close quarter combat, I dont want you to assume the training is the same as “self-defense”. I have been forunate to work and train with some highly qualified units, including the US, British SAS, German GSG9, FBI/HRT,etc…

The overriding factor in all this was the emphasis on killing someone as efficiently as possible. period. In fact, watching Irish’s video, my first thought was how easy and fast you could shove a push dagger into his throat. That does not mean I am twisted in any way, it just means, in my current situation, thats how I react and think about threats.

As others have pointed out, the emphasis on training for the special units and police tactical teams is weapons and rightly so, other people are trying to kill you with them. But, in the training that I am responsible for, I always include striking and grappling. I believe it builds confidence and mental toughness, which as others have pointed out, is the real key to surviving any situation.

OP: If you were serious about really wanting to know about the benefits of MT as a self defense art, then go back and read and study the responses you received. A lot of very skilled martial artists(I am using this ascatch all term) replied with good instruction and personal experiences. How about coming back on giving a “thank you”?

IMHO: Really good observations and experiences, I think this one deserves a place up top.

80

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

[/quote]

Naw. Last time I tried an armbar in a fight I broke the dude’s arm (then face planted him. He was a nast f-tard so not to worry.) Pain compliance relies on them being able to process what you are doing fast enough for them to have a change of heart. In the case of LEO’s. the suspect is usually trying to get away and knows there are more LEO’s on the way (or should be). This gives the officer a chance to apply a pain compliance, because there is a well-defined and known context. The officer is trying to restrain the suspect, not execute him.

– jj[/quote]

I’m not going to deny that some people will break their own joints in the heat of battle, but, in general if people are struggling, you don’t have the lock on correctly. Pain compliance is not a voluntary reaction, in fact, the reflex arc created by the nerves which sense pain actually does not even involve the brain, but instead only the nerves themselves, the interneuron in the spinal cord and the associated motor neuron which controls the necessary muscles. Whether we’re talking about attacking the Golgi Tendon Organ right above the Olecranon process for a standing armbar, stretching the muscles of the shoulder joint to their limit during a Kimura, or any other joint manipulation, the associated pain compliance is totally involuntary (again assuming that you actually have the lock on right and they are feeling pain). That’s one of the great things about joint locks, people respond in a very predictable way to them since their bodies are reacting in an involuntary fashion.

Like Robert said though, smaller joints like fingers have a much greater chance of winding up breaking, due to their smaller less stable structure, than larger joints like the elbow or shoulder. That’s one of the reasons why when you are drilling finger locks, you are taught to avoid locking a single finger as it is likely to snap (you instead always lock several).