Muay Thai for Self Defense

Bigger Stronger Leaner
41

These are all basic reasons to go with the better school over a particular style. Martial Arts is something that takes time to learn. If you have never had any training I still say go with the Muay Thai option in this scenario. I love Krav Maga and have been doing it for a few years now.

That being said 99% of the schools Gloss over basic techniques like a great stance proper punching and more importantly movement. Not because they don’t think it is important but because they want to make money and very few people stick to the grind of doing repetitive strikes and movements to become proficient at it.

They want to see more and more fancy stuff. Krav is great for learing basic strikes and self defense quickly because it is based on instinctual movements and they drill you under stress which basically means after you are tired as shit because you just ran 400 sprints and kneed a pad for 3minutes. I think all of that is great but there should be more focus on making the strikes you do throw count. Also Krav does not spar…you have to pay more for an additional “fight class”. I have done it countless times and spent lots of money.

I would suggest to the OP to take a week in each school and see what you like. Another thing that we have not touched on here is the quality of people you end up training with. I HATE HATE HATE having a pussy ass retarded partner. I will actually quit class and go to the house before I train with a dumbass know it all or someone who thinks they have the way to beat every technique or someone who it to lazy to acutally perform it properly.

I have also made some great friends and have had great partners in many of my classes. If you attend class and there are a bunch of limp dicks who aren’t performing then just move on because no matter how good the teacher is he cannot force someone to learn or do something they really dont’ want to.

It think no matter what discipline you get into there are a lot of other things that will contribute to your learning and experiences than to actually what style it is. Although I will say certain styles attract a certain type of person.

42

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
These are all basic reasons to go with the better school over a particular style. Martial Arts is something that takes time to learn. If you have never had any training I still say go with the Muay Thai option in this scenario. I love Krav Maga and have been doing it for a few years now.

That being said 99% of the schools Gloss over basic techniques like a great stance proper punching and more importantly movement. Not because they don’t think it is important but because they want to make money and very few people stick to the grind of doing repetitive strikes and movements to become proficient at it.

They want to see more and more fancy stuff. Krav is great for learing basic strikes and self defense quickly because it is based on instinctual movements and they drill you under stress which basically means after you are tired as shit because you just ran 400 sprints and kneed a pad for 3minutes. I think all of that is great but there should be more focus on making the strikes you do throw count. Also Krav does not spar…you have to pay more for an additional “fight class”. I have done it countless times and spent lots of money.

I would suggest to the OP to take a week in each school and see what you like. Another thing that we have not touched on here is the quality of people you end up training with. I HATE HATE HATE having a pussy ass retarded partner. I will actually quit class and go to the house before I train with a dumbass know it all or someone who thinks they have the way to beat every technique or someone who it to lazy to acutally perform it properly.

I have also made some great friends and have had great partners in many of my classes. If you attend class and there are a bunch of limp dicks who aren’t performing then just move on because no matter how good the teacher is he cannot force someone to learn or do something they really dont’ want to.

It think no matter what discipline you get into there are a lot of other things that will contribute to your learning and experiences than to actually what style it is. Although I will say certain styles attract a certain type of person.[/quote]

Good post, and great point about the quality of training partners. Iron sharpens iron.

Sparring isn’t part of the regular curriculum if Krav? Really? Well that kind of takes my opinion of it down a couple notches. How do they expect people to learn how to actually apply their techniques against a fully resisting opponent?

43

Again, I know we are all broadly on the same page here about there being more than one way to skin a cat, and that what is effective for one person is not necessarily the right move for another etc. However, I still can’t completely agree on kicks/knees unless you have already been grabbed (in which case, they are arguably more effective that striking). Discussing for interest rather than because I think anyone is following a particularly flawed line of reasoning.

The big difference, and where I think striking is superior, is where you’re dealing with experienced street fighters. As you’ve shown above Sento, there are plenty of effective ways of spoiling average joe’s attempt at being a tough guy. I can’t help but think that against people familiar with violence, your clinch attempt is going to give them a lot more time to react than a strike would. I’m no billy big balls, but whenever someone has launched themselves at me, even from close, I have always managed to grip something on the lad coming at me, rotate my body to reduce targets etc. There is a lot more to set in motion to clinch right than to land a clean punch. Shifting your fist the 18 inches to KO someone is a lot quicker than moving your whole bodyweight forwards, raising your arms to grab someone, and launch a knee. I’m sure there are plenty of people who can make it work for real, but in my experience of being a wanker out and about, I can’t think when I’ve ever seen it used effectively against guys who really know what they are doing.

44

(Based on what I know of U.S. self-defense laws)

You do a judo throw on anyone outside, except on a grassy or otherwise “soft” spot of ground, you could very inflict an injury that’ll be permanent. Esp if your go-to move is harai goshi or similar in that it creates a lot of force.

Bam! Sued for excessive force!

You land a jab or a straight on anyone, and unless you’re a 200lb man and they’re 140lb or something (in which case you should be scared cause no 140lb man will challenge a 200lb man unless they’re VERY confident), the worst that can happen is a busted lip/bruised eye/a cut somewhere.

You land a proper low-body blow and, unless you’re a professional boxer who threw their best punch, the worst that can happen is your opponent falling to the ground in severe pain but no lasting injury.

Not sued unless the fight escalates even further.

My point is that grappling techniques (unless they’re those standing grips that I really do not see working very well in real-life situations cause they get really technical [unless you’ve practiced them to death] and are useless unless you get the exact hold) typically have a far greater potential for injury. Which, obviously, is sort of the point.

The point of a judo throw is to KILL people. Or give yourself such a dominant position over your opponent that you can kill them at will. In spite of the fact that sports judo is called a watered down version of the original judo, the fundamental techniques are still the same.

The point of a choke or a leg/arm bar/various other ground-based grappling technique is to choke them to death/break the respective limb that you locked.

You can’t harm a person as easily with punching. Punching gives you options. You can throw a full-on 100% punch, or you can hold it back quite a bit. You cannot do that in a judo throw. You cannot do that in any grappling techniques that I know of.

Punching allows you to stop the violence. A lot of people you’ll encounter are just tough guys who think they have something to prove without actually having any real training. A solid punch and they’re have to rethink what they’re doing. You can given the option to either drop them onto the ground or just show them that you can hurt them badly if they’re stupid. Grappling techniques don’t give you that luxury. You can either hurt them badly or do nothing.

Now, if you really wanted to hurt someone/actually defend yourself against people who are out to harm you, then none of the above matters. Punching is pointless, throwing someone is pointless. Ground-based grappling is esp. stupid if you’re against more than one person.

In those situations, you do whatever you can, but I seriously doubt a single method is superior to the others.

45

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Again, I know we are all broadly on the same page here about there being more than one way to skin a cat, and that what is effective for one person is not necessarily the right move for another etc. However, I still can’t completely agree on kicks/knees unless you have already been grabbed (in which case, they are arguably more effective that striking). Discussing for interest rather than because I think anyone is following a particularly flawed line of reasoning.

The big difference, and where I think striking is superior, is where you’re dealing with experienced street fighters. As you’ve shown above Sento, there are plenty of effective ways of spoiling average joe’s attempt at being a tough guy. I can’t help but think that against people familiar with violence, your clinch attempt is going to give them a lot more time to react than a strike would. I’m no billy big balls, but whenever someone has launched themselves at me, even from close, I have always managed to grip something on the lad coming at me, rotate my body to reduce targets etc. There is a lot more to set in motion to clinch right than to land a clean punch. Shifting your fist the 18 inches to KO someone is a lot quicker than moving your whole bodyweight forwards, raising your arms to grab someone, and launch a knee. I’m sure there are plenty of people who can make it work for real, but in my experience of being a wanker out and about, I can’t think when I’ve ever seen it used effectively against guys who really know what they are doing. [/quote]

If we’re talking about truly skilled, dangerous fighters, then obviously things are going to change some.

For instance,

  1. If They are the truly dangerous, skilled street fighter, they are probably going to try to get within your “danger zone” without setting off your warning alarms because they realize that the closer they can get to you without you recognizing them as a threat, the less chance you have of defending against their initial attack. Their initial attack is also not going to be a big telegraphic haymaker, but instead a fast direct, accurate strike designed to stun you long enough so that they can hit you with what they really want to (the big punch, kick, knee, etc…).

This type of ambush attack is the worst possible case scenario because if someone really knows what they are doing, you will never see the attack coming and it WILL land on you. You will flinch, but it’s going to be too late to stop the initial strike if they are fast. The only question from there is whether you’re out cold, hurt, but still able to fight, or not really hurt and able to fight.

If you’re still able to fight, then you need to protect your ability to see, breath, and think and try to regain your bearings asap and take the fight to them asap because you’re already fighting an uphill battle.

  1. If they are a sport fighter who is perhaps very good at their sport, but less familiar with real fights, then they still may engage in the whole “monkey dance” thing and get up in your face, trying to entice you to fight them with their words, posture, and perhaps some physical actions such as pushing you, putting their finger in your face or poking you in the chest with it, possibly knocking something in your hands out, etc… in an attempt to try to humiliate or intimidate you.

This person might still try to classic haymaker punch on you should you play along and shove them back, knock their hand away, etc… so things like SPEARING them directly into a knee or headbutt/ram would still be applicable.

But, should your initial defense movement or counter fail to drop them, you are likely to be engaged in a much more dangerous “active combat” situation than had it been an average joe. Now, they are in a fight, where they are used to being, and now you are going to need good active combative skills if you hope to come out on top.

The second guy/gal is still potentially dangerous due to their training, conditioning, toughness they’re likely developed from getting hit, cranked, and thrown and familiarity with pain and violence. But the first guy/gal is the truly dangerous one. Against that person really the only way you’re going to be able to thwart their attack is if you never let anyone get within arms reach of you who you don’t know because at least at a stepping distance away you might have a chance of flinching in time to make the strike miss or at least graze you. So, awareness and a mild sense of paranoia can be a good thing. But realistically people are going to get that close to you if you go to crowded bars, clubs, concerts, or really anywhere where you find a mass of humanity.

If we’re talking about you being the first guy, my first response (assuming I’m still awake and after I’ve covered my head, throat, and eyes to remain awake) is going to largely depend on what you follow your initial ambush attack up with.

If you’re close enough that I feel I can smother your punches with a clinch and take the fight to you from there I will. and when someone who knows what they’re doing grabs you in a thai clinch it’s as if they are throwing both straight punches at and past your head and then they both clamp on on the back and sides of your head/neck with their forearms pressing into your chest. The transition happens very, very quickly and they can immediately throw knees, elbows, headbutts (should you try to muscle your neck back out of the clinch), or off balance you by twisting your neck and head and using their bodyweight and then resuming their striking assault. Even if you’re a great boxer, you not only are likely not used to having someone ragdoll you around by your neck while blasting knees, elbows, and kicks to your legs in the process and cannot punch effectively from an unbalanced position even if you are.

If you’re farther away I may choose to use punches or open hand strikes to lead off with and then follow it up with whatever presents itself.

Usually those are going to be really the only options from there as once most people have hit you with that initial strike, they usually throw everything but the kitchen sink at you (1st rule of street fighting is "he who lands first, lands the hardest, and lands the most wins 99% of the time) in an attempt to overwhelm you with superior pressure and ferocity. So, it’s unlikely they are going to back up into kickboxing range and want to spar with you/let you recover.

If we’re talking about you being the second guy, I’m going to try to talk you down, but decide at some point whether I am justified in ambushing you (trust my gut). And if I do, I’m going to hurt you badly and fast. If I don’t and you do try to throw a haymaker, I’m again going to react and seek to take you out asap (and I’m not going to fight fair which means that I will hit or kick you in the groin, gouge your eyes, elbow you in the throat, access any weapons that are available to me, etc…) and again, you aren’t going to stop my initial clinch because the impact from my forearm into your brachial plexus is going to stun you momentarily.

If for whatever reason my strikes don’t work, I have lots of great options to use on you from any range or position you can imagine us getting into (because I train in all ranges and using all arsenals full speed against fully resisting opponents) and will fight until my dying breathe until I succeed or die in the process, and if I die I plan on haunting you. :slight_smile:

46

[quote]magick wrote:
(Based on what I know of U.S. self-defense laws)

You do a judo throw on anyone outside, except on a grassy or otherwise “soft” spot of ground, you could very inflict an injury that’ll be permanent. Esp if your go-to move is harai goshi or similar in that it creates a lot of force.

Bam! Sued for excessive force!

You land a jab or a straight on anyone, and unless you’re a 200lb man and they’re 140lb or something (in which case you should be scared cause no 140lb man will challenge a 200lb man unless they’re VERY confident), the worst that can happen is a busted lip/bruised eye/a cut somewhere.

You land a proper low-body blow and, unless you’re a professional boxer who threw their best punch, the worst that can happen is your opponent falling to the ground in severe pain but no lasting injury.

Not sued unless the fight escalates even further.

My point is that grappling techniques (unless they’re those standing grips that I really do not see working very well in real-life situations cause they get really technical [unless you’ve practiced them to death] and are useless unless you get the exact hold) typically have a far greater potential for injury. Which, obviously, is sort of the point.

The point of a judo throw is to KILL people. Or give yourself such a dominant position over your opponent that you can kill them at will. In spite of the fact that sports judo is called a watered down version of the original judo, the fundamental techniques are still the same.

The point of a choke or a leg/arm bar/various other ground-based grappling technique is to choke them to death/break the respective limb that you locked.

You can’t harm a person as easily with punching. Punching gives you options. You can throw a full-on 100% punch, or you can hold it back quite a bit. You cannot do that in a judo throw. You cannot do that in any grappling techniques that I know of.

Punching allows you to stop the violence. A lot of people you’ll encounter are just tough guys who think they have something to prove without actually having any real training. A solid punch and they’re have to rethink what they’re doing. You can given the option to either drop them onto the ground or just show them that you can hurt them badly if they’re stupid. Grappling techniques don’t give you that luxury. You can either hurt them badly or do nothing.

Now, if you really wanted to hurt someone/actually defend yourself against people who are out to harm you, then none of the above matters. Punching is pointless, throwing someone is pointless. Ground-based grappling is esp. stupid if you’re against more than one person.

In those situations, you do whatever you can, but I seriously doubt a single method is superior to the others.[/quote]

Couple things.

  1. Most deaths in real fights occur from people hitting their heads on the ground as the result of being punched in the face. If you know what you’re doing and hit someone with a solid 1-2. 1-2-3, or what have you to the chin and KO them, there is a very real chance that they may hit their heads on something on the way down and die as the result. Happened at a bar in my hometown just a few years back. In this case you’re facing manslaughter at least.

I will agree though that this makes a lot of throws very dangerous from a legal/moral perspective, but very effective from a “will take someone out fast” perspective. So, you’ve gotta be sure that potentially lethal force is justified.

  1. A body punch can be a great tool, but unless you’re a trained boxer, land it just perfectly, or completely surprise someone with it, it isn’t likely that you’re going to be able to take a tough person out with a single punch. So from a legal/moral perspective it can be great, but from an effectiveness perspective it can be questionable.

  2. Your understanding of grappling is questionable. Yes, in a real life or death situation you can destroy someone’s joints, choke them unconscious or even kill them with Jiu-Jitsu techniques. But they also make excellent controlling maneuvers (hence whey they are taught to police organizations around the world) which allow you to force people to comply with your demands and render them ineffective at hurting you back.

I’ll agree that ground based grappling can be problematic from a multiple person or weapons standpoint, and even standing grappling under those conditions (unless you’ve got a bunch of buddies nearby watching your back) isn’t a great idea. But against a single person, if you do it right and set it up right, it can end a fight very quickly without needing to seriously injure someone.

Totally agree with your last point about not fighting people unless they are really out to hurt you and that in that case, the best technique/style is the one that gets results.

47

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
People overthink this stuff…if you want to train Muay Thai for self-defense…go for it. BUT always remember…Muay Thai…is a sport with rules. With that,I’d focus lot of attention on clinch,understanding distance, elbows, knee techniques. S.P.E.A.R. would be great compliment to those things. [/quote]

This is a style vs style discussion in the internet.

Overthinking is mandatory.

Quoting out of context is encouraged.

Being purposely obtuse is considered optional.

Regards,

Robert A

48

[quote]Robert A wrote:

Being purposely obtuse is considered optional.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Not for me. It’s a way of life.

49

[quote]harmony72 wrote:
Is Muay thai good to learn if i want to defend myself in the streets? There’s seem to be a good school that teaches muay thai im my area. I’ve looked into krav maga, but the sense i get is that the schools doesnt seem that good. Of course im basing all this on reading online reviews and looking at the school’s websites.[/quote]

harmony72,

In general either could serve you well, or at least as well as unarmed combat skills should be expected to.

Sentoguy is completely correct about the individual quality of the schools being as important as the “style”. If you feel the Krav school “doesn’t seem that good” either because of poor technique, poor instruction, or poor anything else than a good school that teaches muay thai is a fantastic option. A school/gym where the people know what they are doing AND can teach it will always outshine a bad/poorly run teaching facility, even if the shitty one is teaching how to be a super-tactical-blood-ninja.

Sentoguy is also correct about the physical skills being only a small part of the equation, the link in one of FightinIrish’s posts to the No NonSense Self-Defense sight is worth the read to give an idea of what else might be a factor. Don’t let that put you off muay thai. Developing technique is still damn important, and takes a lot of training time. You might as well start now.

FightinIrish also pointed out that what most people mean when they say self defense is more about “handling themselves in a fight” than actual defense against criminal assualt. A sport like Muay Thai or Boxing is going to have a huge leg up here over grappling because for a lot of people it isn’t really fighting if “I can’t punch someone in the face”(TKD and some forms of karate may disagree). The reason isn’t that grappling “doesn’t work”, plenty of style vs style matches have shown quite the opposite, but that if you are not hitting and getting hit you don’t count yourself “proven” and are then less able to do all the avoidance, walking away, de-escalation stuff that most of us suggest.

Basically, if you want to learn “how to fight” kickboxing or boxing may put you in a better position to say “this isn’t worth it” when confronted in violence outside the ring/gym. Yes I am suggesting that a boxing gym may actually get some of the “lessons” claimed in traditional martial arts into someone’s head faster/better than many dojos.

MY ADVICE:

It is important to train someplace where the instructors know what they are doing, can teach what they know, and give a damn about their students. If any of these are not in place learning suffers. For most of us finances, geography, and time limitations tend to have far more impact on what is the “best school” than any general “style vs style” considerations. I am also going to say it is REALLY, REALLY fucking important that you pick a style/training environment that you enjoy and are excited about. If you don’t like what you are doing it will be difficult to put in the hours of steady training that lead to competency. Plus, it wont be fun.

So, which excites you more?

Regards,

Robert A

50

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

Being purposely obtuse is considered optional.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Not for me. It’s a way of life. [/quote]

Fellas,

Best put something heavy in the bottom of your purse before getting in any internet cat-fights with this one.

51

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Couple things.

  1. Most deaths in real fights occur from people hitting their heads on the ground as the result of being punched in the face. If you know what you’re doing and hit someone with a solid 1-2. 1-2-3, or what have you to the chin and KO them, there is a very real chance that they may hit their heads on something on the way down and die as the result. Happened at a bar in my hometown just a few years back. In this case you’re facing manslaughter at least.

I will agree though that this makes a lot of throws very dangerous from a legal/moral perspective, but very effective from a “will take someone out fast” perspective. So, you’ve gotta be sure that potentially lethal force is justified.[/quote]

Fair enough. I forgot that a punch can easily knock someone out cold and they fall and hit their head. It’s just that judo techniques sorta have you intentionally having them hit their head on the ground with a lot of force, whereas when you’re punching, you don’t intentionally have them fall and hit their head. From a legal PoV, which looks better?

And, yes, that was what I wanted to get at. There’s a reason why I’m fixated on the harai goshi. I once had a blue belt use it on me when I had my guard down and it completely took me out. I literally had the air knocked out of me and I couldn’t do shit for at least a full minute. It was the single most painful experience I’ve had while practicing judo, and that’s when I realized just how dangerous judo, or any grappling technique that has you throwing people onto the ground for that matter, can be in real life.

[quote]
2) A body punch can be a great tool, but unless you’re a trained boxer, land it just perfectly, or completely surprise someone with it, it isn’t likely that you’re going to be able to take a tough person out with a single punch. So from a legal/moral perspective it can be great, but from an effectiveness perspective it can be questionable.[/quote]

Define tough guy. Obviously the guy who got taken out with a single jab in the video FightingIrish posted is not a tough guy, but obviously he thought himself to be one. Are you seriously expecting to find yourself in a situation where you’re fighting hardened men who have been in numerous street fights and have bodies that can actually handle, or are you expecting to run into random people who think they’re much tougher than they really are and can be taken out with just proper techniques?

That’s the issue with a lot of these arguments. Are you talking about fighting people who have fought all their lives? Or random people with short tempers?

[quote]
3) Your understanding of grappling is questionable. Yes, in a real life or death situation you can destroy someone’s joints, choke them unconscious or even kill them with Jiu-Jitsu techniques. But they also make excellent controlling maneuvers (hence whey they are taught to police organizations around the world) which allow you to force people to comply with your demands and render them ineffective at hurting you back.[/quote]

Maybe. That’s why I tried to specifically mention techniques like arm-bars and chokes. Their purpose is to choke someone out/break their arm by applying a lot of pressure. You can’t really half-ass them though. It is counterproductive to the intention behind the techniques.

Obviously there are grappling techniques designed to control people on the ground. However, they do not incapacitate your opponent. They prevent them from fighting back only so long as you have them pinned. That is not effective in a street-fighting PoV. Why on earth do you want to temporary stop them from fighting back? Give them a chance to cool down? Do you really think someone will cool down if you have them pinned down to the ground with your knee/body?

Again, it comes down to what kind of encounters you are talking about. Are you talking about some random hot-tempered guy who thinks he can take you on, and then you just dropped him onto the ground and hold him and tell them that if he tries to fight back you’ll do worse things?
Or are you talking about people who have genuinely bad intentions towards you and will not stop fighting until either one of you are seriously hurt? If it’s the former, then grappling techniques designed to pin your opponent will work. If it’s the latter, then what exactly is pinning them going to do unless you have specific back-up or a plan to stop them from doing further harm?

Cops can pin people all day long. They have handcuffs. Do you walk around with a handcuff?

52

A few notes on the whole standing grappling vs striking gang bang:

1.) I have used wrist, finger, and elbow locks against fully resisting opponents. I have done this “in the street”(which was seldom actually in the middle of the street, but not only in training). I was there. It seemed pretty real to me. I am not a big guy. I beleive Sentoguy has some serious size/muscle on him, so I am going to go ahead and say if I could do it, I fully believe someone bigger, stronger, and probably more athletically inclined than me could also do it.

2.) The issue of multiple opponents is certainly valid, but lets not act like tunnel vision and getting clubed/stabbed/shot from behind isn’t a risk for everyone. In many of the above scenarios I immediately used my control to turn the asshole and put him between me and his friends. The fact that my first goal was disbalancing him, i.e. kazushi, helped a lot. Pivoting is a big part of these techniques anyway, and I have taken full advantage. Even when I didn’t know if it was one, or he had friends I have done the whole turn more than 90 degrees deal to at least give me a shot at seeing anyone rush me in my peripheral vision(not going to lie, my vision was mostly on the dude who I knew was a problem). A few times I picked up movement and sent asshole number 1 towards it. I did this. I was there. If I could do it, so could anyone else.

3.) How fast a joint lock “comes on” depends on a lot of factors. In practice, especially at first, it is really important to go slow to avoid injury. I know that some instructors really play up the “no permanent damage” angle. They must be a hell of a lot better than I am. If the person I am locking up isn’t familiar with the technique than damage is likely to happen. I say “There is going to be a pop…then a scream. The first pop does not mean that you are done. It does not mean that the technique didn’t work. It is like the first crack when you are using a glow stick. It is just telling you that all the subsequent shaking, twisting, and bending you are going to do will bear fruit.”

Generally speaking the larger the joint, the more likely the person being locked will be able to “go with it”. Notable exceptions are the shoulder and knee. They are big joints, but way more likely to pop than an elbow. I can discuss the anatomical reasons if anyone wants. As a general rule, you have to be damn good, NOT TO HURT your uke. Someone who is attacking you has communicated that he holds a rather casual regard for your safety and well being. I think it would be rude to ignore this. Far be it from any of us to ignore someone else’s feelings. That is disrespectful, and respect is a big part of the martial arts. We bow to each other and shit. Instead, I suggest we respond in kind. Besides, if my other option is to cave his ribs in or give him a concussion than he is getting an ortho/trauma consult either way.

4.) I consider knowing how techniques fail to be a big part of competency. Sento already alluded to this when he talked about how someone he was locking up would have limited options. This is a big deal. I am a huge believer in “mining the escape routes”. So even if the initial lock “doesn’t work” you can use it to get the guy to dive head first into a throw, another lock, or a strike(that will likely catch him when he is off balance, distracted, and not expecting it.) Simply using a joint lock/standing grappling technique to get someone off balance can be enough to take them from “opponent” to “heavy bag”. And lets face it, we can get away with all kinds of shit when we are just hitting a heavy bag.

I am aware many instructors do not make the “when it fails” thing a large part of their curriculum. It is the majority of what I teach/work. Mostly, because I suck. So I have a ton more experience with how things don’t work. The instructors who ignore the other guy’s options are doing themselves and their students the same type of diservice as the TMA and combatives instructors who preach that a given strike will end hostility immediately, every time.

None of the above means I am saying that classical ju jutsu, aiki jutsu, or aikido is in any way “better” than boxing/kickboxing. I am saying that the techniques can be used effectively. I have done so. My instructor has done so. Students of mine have done so. If I could do it, than so could anyone reading this.

Regards,

Robert A

53

RE: London’s anecdote

I am going to respectfully suggest that it was not boxing that carried the day for London’s friend, but proficiency.

I suspect that anyone that has trained hard enough that LondonBoxer would ID him as “a boxer” as opposed to “someone who took boxing lessons” is at fairly high level of competency. Probably much higher than the guy who tried to hit him.

Getting to a “good enough” degree of proficiency is way, way more important than the specific style. This can be a knock against combined styles/cross training to a point because splitting time/effort means any individual skill gets worked less.

To put it plainly, having a good Plan A is often better and more workable than having shitty Plans A-D. Getting to this level takes time and effort.

It is easier to put the time in if you enjoy what you are training. If you LOVE what you are training than the effort and time just accidently happens. I am pretty sure that Sento loves the type of RMA he does. I AM positive Irish loves boxing. I submit that this gives them both a better chance of being prepared at any date in the future than if they were forced into something else.

Regards,

Robert A

54

[quote]magick wrote:
Fair enough. I forgot that a punch can easily knock someone out cold and they fall and hit their head. It’s just that judo techniques sorta have you intentionally having them hit their head on the ground with a lot of force, whereas when you’re punching, you don’t intentionally have them fall and hit their head. From a legal PoV, which looks better?
[/quote]

Well, to be fair, Judo also teaches you how to control your opponent’s fall (how to be “nice” or “mean”) when throwing them. You CAN throw them on their head, or you CAN pull up on their arm and let them hit something else (say their elbow or outstretched arm), which is far less lethal.

Yeah, not arguing that a good Judoka couldn’t mess you up real quick with a hard throw on concrete. Even if you do know how to land/fall, it’s not gonna be fun.

You can prepare yourself for whoever you want. When I train I am preparing myself for a highly trained, athletic opponent, who will do anything they can to win, wants to kill me and will attack me at the worst possible time and place. In other words, the worst case scenario.

Now, I don’t really expect that everyone who I run into is that person, but suspecting that all of them are is going to prevent me from underestimating anyone and is going to make downshifting into “normal bar jerk” much easier and more feasible than it would be for me to train for “normal bar jerk” and then try to upshift into “trained killer” mode.

[quote}
Maybe. That’s why I tried to specifically mention techniques like arm-bars and chokes. Their purpose is to choke someone out/break their arm by applying a lot of pressure. You can’t really half-ass them though. It is counterproductive to the intention behind the techniques.
[/quote]

You mean the grounded BJJ types of armbars right? If so, then yeah, agreed.

Depends on the situation. If there are a bunch of people involved, or I’m in the middle of a bar brawl, no, I’m not going to try to pin someone and control them there.

If on the other hand it’s just me and one other person and I don’t want to seriously hurt them for whatever reason (it’s a buddy who has had one too many and decides that tonight’s the night he’s gonna prove how tough he is, or I’m at someone’s house and they ask me to help them take care of an unruly or unwanted guest, or any host of other possible scenarios), then I can either pin them down and hold them there till they either calm down or back-up arrives (police, friends to help escort them out, other bouncers if I’m working the door at a club, etc…), or force them to go where I want them to in order to throw them out myself, maybe take them away from a weapon that I forced them to drop so I can shove them into something and go retrieve the weapon myself, or any host of other useful nonlethal uses of joint locking/controls.

I honestly don’t need them. Once I get someone down and pinned, I can hold them there all day long if I want to. And any good Jiu-Jitsu person can do the same.

I agree though, it depends on the situation as to whether it’s going to be the best option or not.

55

Where do you assholes hang out that getting jumping by multiple opponents is such a real possibility? lol

Don’t worry about what the sign out front says. Muay Thai, boxing, judo, karate, whatever. Find the best instructor with the best training partners.

56

[quote]Robert A wrote:
RE: London’s anecdote

I am going to respectfully suggest that it was not boxing that carried the day for London’s friend, but proficiency.

I suspect that anyone that has trained hard enough that LondonBoxer would ID him as “a boxer” as opposed to “someone who took boxing lessons” is at fairly high level of competency. Probably much higher than the guy who tried to hit him.

Getting to a “good enough” degree of proficiency is way, way more important than the specific style. This can be a knock against combined styles/cross training to a point because splitting time/effort means any individual skill gets worked less.

To put it plainly, having a good Plan A is often better and more workable than having shitty Plans A-D. Getting to this level takes time and effort.

It is easier to put the time in if you enjoy what you are training. If you LOVE what you are training than the effort and time just accidently happens. I am pretty sure that Sento loves the type of RMA he does. I AM positive Irish loves boxing. I submit that this gives them both a better chance of being prepared at any date in the future than if they were forced into something else.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Eloquently and accurately put, Robert A. Everything I have said assumes proficiency, which, as you say, takes time and dedication. Having not studied specifically to become a ninja, unlike you, sento, and one or two others, I’ll admit that I haven’t had the benefit of analysing at what point I became competent/efficient etc. Whereas, I imagine you guys are much more aware of your progression as a force ‘in the street’. I think much of what Irish and I are pushing also assumes a passing familiarity with the rougher edges of everyday life, which is not always realistic for people who may want to learn to protect themselves.

For me personally, boxing is ‘the best’ system, because although I’m no Billy Badass, I can spot trouble a mile off, an have a pretty good idea of how to handle it (whether that is diffusing it or upping the aggression stakes). Between a lifetime of boxing and growing up in a more primitive environment, I probably have a lot of the RMA elements ‘built in’ without realising it. That has almost always put me in a position to give someone a clip round the ear, with varying degrees of force, through boxing. I admit though that there’ve been one or two times where I’ve had someone fat sit on my head while his mate kicked me, and wished I knew your jedi magic.

You put it best when you said: ‘To put it plainly, having a good Plan A is often better and more workable than having shitty Plans A-D.’

57

[quote]Robert A wrote:
A few notes on the whole standing grappling vs striking gang bang:

1.) I have used wrist, finger, and elbow locks against fully resisting opponents. I have done this “in the street”(which was seldom actually in the middle of the street, but not only in training). I was there. It seemed pretty real to me. I am not a big guy. I beleive Sentoguy has some serious size/muscle on him, so I am going to go ahead and say if I could do it, I fully believe someone bigger, stronger, and probably more athletically inclined than me could also do it.

2.) The issue of multiple opponents is certainly valid, but lets not act like tunnel vision and getting clubed/stabbed/shot from behind isn’t a risk for everyone. In many of the above scenarios I immediately used my control to turn the asshole and put him between me and his friends. The fact that my first goal was disbalancing him, i.e. kazushi, helped a lot. Pivoting is a big part of these techniques anyway, and I have taken full advantage. Even when I didn’t know if it was one, or he had friends I have done the whole turn more than 90 degrees deal to at least give me a shot at seeing anyone rush me in my peripheral vision(not going to lie, my vision was mostly on the dude who I knew was a problem). A few times I picked up movement and sent asshole number 1 towards it. I did this. I was there. If I could do it, so could anyone else.

3.) How fast a joint lock “comes on” depends on a lot of factors. In practice, especially at first, it is really important to go slow to avoid injury. I know that some instructors really play up the “no permanent damage” angle. They must be a hell of a lot better than I am. If the person I am locking up isn’t familiar with the technique than damage is likely to happen. I say “There is going to be a pop…then a scream. The first pop does not mean that you are done. It does not mean that the technique didn’t work. It is like the first crack when you are using a glow stick. It is just telling you that all the subsequent shaking, twisting, and bending you are going to do will bear fruit.”

Generally speaking the larger the joint, the more likely the person being locked will be able to “go with it”. Notable exceptions are the shoulder and knee. They are big joints, but way more likely to pop than an elbow. I can discuss the anatomical reasons if anyone wants. As a general rule, you have to be damn good, NOT TO HURT your uke. Someone who is attacking you has communicated that he holds a rather casual regard for your safety and well being. I think it would be rude to ignore this. Far be it from any of us to ignore someone else’s feelings. That is disrespectful, and respect is a big part of the martial arts. We bow to each other and shit. Instead, I suggest we respond in kind. Besides, if my other option is to cave his ribs in or give him a concussion than he is getting an ortho/trauma consult either way.

4.) I consider knowing how techniques fail to be a big part of competency. Sento already alluded to this when he talked about how someone he was locking up would have limited options. This is a big deal. I am a huge believer in “mining the escape routes”. So even if the initial lock “doesn’t work” you can use it to get the guy to dive head first into a throw, another lock, or a strike(that will likely catch him when he is off balance, distracted, and not expecting it.) Simply using a joint lock/standing grappling technique to get someone off balance can be enough to take them from “opponent” to “heavy bag”. And lets face it, we can get away with all kinds of shit when we are just hitting a heavy bag.

I am aware many instructors do not make the “when it fails” thing a large part of their curriculum. It is the majority of what I teach/work. Mostly, because I suck. So I have a ton more experience with how things don’t work. The instructors who ignore the other guy’s options are doing themselves and their students the same type of diservice as the TMA and combatives instructors who preach that a given strike will end hostility immediately, every time.

None of the above means I am saying that classical ju jutsu, aiki jutsu, or aikido is in any way “better” than boxing/kickboxing. I am saying that the techniques can be used effectively. I have done so. My instructor has done so. Students of mine have done so. If I could do it, than so could anyone reading this.

Regards,

Robert A

[/quote]

Exactly.

And in regards to the not harming people, I focus my practice of locks to a fairly small number in regards to standing skills, so my goal is to get brutally efficient and proficient at a few, not crappy at a whole bunch. And honestly even for ground stuff, even though I know and am proficient at doing things like rolling kneebars, Omoplatas, gi chokes, and a whole bunch of other flashy submissions that you see in BJJ competitions I wouldn’t use any of them in a real fight unless the opponent literally put themselves into perfect position to do so (and even then I wouldn’t do some); I again stick to the basics like Americana, Kimura, Rear Naked Choke, Triangle choke, Armbar, and Heel hooks/straight ankle locks and extensions and combinations off those techniques.

It all comes back to the OODA Loop concept. I’m going to get really good at springing the trap, and then once you’re in it, I want to know every possible escape route out and beat you to the punch every step of the way. In other words, I’m thinking and reacting way, way faster than you are because I’ve been there so many times before and will see your escape coming almost as soon as you start to initiate it.

So, I can take people right to the brink where their joint is going to break (or their windpipe is going to collapse) very quickly and know just where to stop so that I don’t damage them permanently. It’s all about accuracy, technique, and repetition. If you’ve ever have any really good Jiu-Jitsu guys lock you you’ll know what I mean by this (and I’d only consider myself a good Jiu-Jitsu guy, I’ve had some great ones lock me and Holy Crap is it not fun).

58

[quote]Melvin Smiley wrote:
Where do you assholes hang out that getting jumping by multiple opponents is such a real possibility? lol

Don’t worry about what the sign out front says. Muay Thai, boxing, judo, karate, whatever. Find the best instructor with the best training partners.[/quote]

Well I live in a fairly sedate, mid sized city in Canada and I would estimate that locally maybe 25% of bar fights, either by design or by accident, end up involving more people than the 2 dudes who touched off at first.

In my small sphere I can think of at least two specific examples of people I know. 1 guy was deliberately set up. A couple of guys started hassling his girlfriend. He tried to talk his way out of it etc, etc but they persisted and finally he’d had it. This guy is a pretty big, athletic dude who happens to have some decent boxing skills and had been in a number of hockey and street/bar fights. He two-punched the first guy, dropped him and started in on the second. This is where the third guy who had kept a real low profile thus far crept up dummied him from behind and then all three of them started in with the boots. It got broken up pretty quick and he came out OK, but it could have easily gone another way.

The other guy I know was drunk and spilled his drink on one member of a hockey team. Instead of apologizing and offering to buy the guy a beer, he got mouthy and well… you get the idea. These guys were both coworkers of mine, 2 out of about 20 so that amounts to a roughly 10% probability for males age 20-27. I realize my sample is too small to be statistically significant but it’s still worth thinking about.

We’ve got a contingent of local semi-gangsta types who are all skilled MMA guys and they treat this as a form of training/sport and routinely do it on Saturday night. They’ll just pick a guy who looks somewhat hard and wait for/create an opportunity to fuck him up. If one of their guys is coming out on the wrong end of the exchange you can bet his colleagues are right there to back him up. We are a long way from the mean streets of South Central or AC but it goes down somewhere in town almost every weekend.

59

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
These are all basic reasons to go with the better school over a particular style. Martial Arts is something that takes time to learn. If you have never had any training I still say go with the Muay Thai option in this scenario. I love Krav Maga and have been doing it for a few years now.

That being said 99% of the schools Gloss over basic techniques like a great stance proper punching and more importantly movement. Not because they don’t think it is important but because they want to make money and very few people stick to the grind of doing repetitive strikes and movements to become proficient at it.

They want to see more and more fancy stuff. Krav is great for learing basic strikes and self defense quickly because it is based on instinctual movements and they drill you under stress which basically means after you are tired as shit because you just ran 400 sprints and kneed a pad for 3minutes. I think all of that is great but there should be more focus on making the strikes you do throw count. Also Krav does not spar…you have to pay more for an additional “fight class”. I have done it countless times and spent lots of money.

I would suggest to the OP to take a week in each school and see what you like. Another thing that we have not touched on here is the quality of people you end up training with. I HATE HATE HATE having a pussy ass retarded partner. I will actually quit class and go to the house before I train with a dumbass know it all or someone who thinks they have the way to beat every technique or someone who it to lazy to acutally perform it properly.

I have also made some great friends and have had great partners in many of my classes. If you attend class and there are a bunch of limp dicks who aren’t performing then just move on because no matter how good the teacher is he cannot force someone to learn or do something they really dont’ want to.

It think no matter what discipline you get into there are a lot of other things that will contribute to your learning and experiences than to actually what style it is. Although I will say certain styles attract a certain type of person.[/quote]

Good post, and great point about the quality of training partners. Iron sharpens iron.

Sparring isn’t part of the regular curriculum if Krav? Really? Well that kind of takes my opinion of it down a couple notches. How do they expect people to learn how to actually apply their techniques against a fully resisting opponent?[/quote]

well Sparring is part of the curiculum in higher levels I went all the way to level 3 with KM worldwide and never had sparring in a regular class. You will do some techniques at full speed or 80% conviction. They market that aspect of KM so rich tightey whiteys and little girls come in and give them money for a false sense of security. Damn I feel like I am bashing Krav and I don’t want to come off that way. I learned a ton in there and I recommend it to anyone but I wish they had a grown up program that made people spar and buy friggin headgear and shinguards that didn’t cost 200 a month.

From what I understand in the old days…like 7-10 years ago the curicullum was different but they keep moving things to the later levels so you have to train longer and get to higher levels to learn. They also charge you to test and if you fail that is money lost. Now that I have an oppurtunity to teach I use that time to show people what they need to know to make the punches count and stay offline with footwork. Lots of boxing drills and using head movement. Don’t do it right then keep doing it unitl you do because it matters.

60

I am an avid advocate of boxing as the original method of self defense (or at the very least the practice of striking someone very hard with the hands). That said, I believe the classic debate of which MA is appropriate for self defence must take into account the MA’s level of sophistication. When reading “sophistication” please see “degree of complexity, learning curve, reasonably required proficiency”. I don’t mean the martial art drinks tea with its pinky finger sticking out while reading Hemingway.

Striking someone with the hands is a base, instinctual reaction to being attacked and is perhaps the simplest form of human generated force after cracking a fart when no-ones looking. To teach someone how to strike with the hands as efficiently and powerfully as that student can manage is building off of that truly primal instinct and possibly the straightest road to self defence.

To add degrees of complexity to that, increases the learning curve and raises the reasonably expected required proficiency. These are variables that differ from style to style, but if you want a style or system that has the best ratio of DofC, LC and RRP then boxing is the system to go with. Or the system of staying in doors your whole life. But then you have your cats and potato collection to deal with.

Truthfully, when I read comments by Irish, London, Robert, Sento, Humble etc all y’all are clearly experienced martial artists and I can see you guys understand this perfectly well. And yes Irish. I called you an artist.

EDIT: and speaking of Hemingway, I understand he was quite the bar fighter too.