Muay Thai for Self Defense

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren’t any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he’d made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It’s all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.

[/quote]

Well, if we’re talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you’re going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I’d say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn’t necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).[/quote]

I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let’s take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he’s hurting but not in danger of dying, and you’re separated already and saying to the other guys “Let’s not take this farther.” From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better… but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.[/quote]

I dunno if I agree with this. I know some guys in my Judo club that will put you on your ass in a mere second, no matter what tactic you use. Mind you, these guys are cream of the crop national judoka, but just like your average Joe doesn’t know his jab from his straight, the same clue less drunkars don’t really have any tools against grappling.[/quote]

They often have mates, with weapons or blunt objects to hand. If you are in a crowded bar, you need a lot more space to execute an effective throw than you do to land a hook. [/quote]

Well sure, but your example was a bunch of guys playing soccer (I think, some of your terms and some of ours are the same but mean different things) on a field, accompanied by a team of friends also playing soccer. If your example had been in a crowded bar, where you were surrounded by people who you had no idea whether they were friend or foe and there were all kinds of potential weapons laying around (beer bottles, bar stools, pool cues, pool balls, etc…) not to mention that people may have actually been carrying weapons having anticipated getting into a fight, then of course that would have changed things.

That wasn’t the example you gave though.

22

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren’t any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he’d made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It’s all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.

[/quote]

Well, if we’re talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you’re going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I’d say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn’t necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).[/quote]

I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let’s take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he’s hurting but not in danger of dying, and you’re separated already and saying to the other guys “Let’s not take this farther.” From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better… but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.[/quote]

Ok, let’s take what London said;

Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

Now obviously this takes training to pull off and won’t necessarily work against a skilled boxer (but them most skilled boxers aren’t going to throw sloppy haymakers at you in the first place), but against your average “tough guy”, the shock and pain of feeling his radial nerve getting smashed between your ulnar bone and his radial bone is going to create a momentary stun or lapse in his attack and give you the time required to do the rest of the movement.

Or, my preferred method, “spear” his haymaker (causing a simultaneous strike to his radial nerve and carotid sinus), thus again stunning him (if no KO’ing him), and then (assuming this scenario, and assuming you don’t want to simply knee him in the testicles and end the fight right then and there), trace your left hand down to his wrist and reach around underneath his elbow with your right arm, placing your right radial bone behind the Golgi tendon organ of his right triceps, your head on his shoulder (to prevent him from being able to hit you or get to your hands, and simultaneously pull your right wits towards you and push his left wrist in the opposite direction, again creating a standing armbar. He will again be up on his toes in severe pain and thus very easy to move around (if need be), and convince that he should tell his buddies to back off.

The good thing about grappling is that even though you can potentially destroy joints or render someone unconscious with it, you don’t usually have to, and once they calm down and you let them go, they have sustained no permanent damage, and in fact there is no physical evidence that you harmed them in any way (better from a legal standpoint).

Now, had it been London’s buddy by himself against this guy and a bunch of his friends, then yeah, striking would definitely be my choice as well.
[/quote]

I’ll be honest, as soon as you start describing moves like that my eyes gloss over.

Just keep in mind I’m not saying grappling DOESN’T work in the specific one-on-one situation. I’m just saying that I think hitting is better. I’m not trying to convert you, but realize that there’s no chance I’m going to agree with you on this one, either.

In my experience - real experience - if you’re gonna grapple with my buddy, I have time to hit you a shitload of times while your attention ISN’T on me. Honestly, I can’t ask for a better time to sucker punch the shit out of you because you literally can’t let go because of the guy in front of you, and you’re all tangled up. That was a lot of fun sometimes.

Again, just my opinion.

23

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren’t any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he’d made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It’s all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.

[/quote]

Well, if we’re talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you’re going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I’d say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn’t necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).[/quote]

I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let’s take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he’s hurting but not in danger of dying, and you’re separated already and saying to the other guys “Let’s not take this farther.” From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better… but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.[/quote]

Ok, let’s take what London said;

Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

Now obviously this takes training to pull off and won’t necessarily work against a skilled boxer (but them most skilled boxers aren’t going to throw sloppy haymakers at you in the first place), but against your average “tough guy”, the shock and pain of feeling his radial nerve getting smashed between your ulnar bone and his radial bone is going to create a momentary stun or lapse in his attack and give you the time required to do the rest of the movement.

Or, my preferred method, “spear” his haymaker (causing a simultaneous strike to his radial nerve and carotid sinus), thus again stunning him (if no KO’ing him), and then (assuming this scenario, and assuming you don’t want to simply knee him in the testicles and end the fight right then and there), trace your left hand down to his wrist and reach around underneath his elbow with your right arm, placing your right radial bone behind the Golgi tendon organ of his right triceps, your head on his shoulder (to prevent him from being able to hit you or get to your hands, and simultaneously pull your right wits towards you and push his left wrist in the opposite direction, again creating a standing armbar. He will again be up on his toes in severe pain and thus very easy to move around (if need be), and convince that he should tell his buddies to back off.

The good thing about grappling is that even though you can potentially destroy joints or render someone unconscious with it, you don’t usually have to, and once they calm down and you let them go, they have sustained no permanent damage, and in fact there is no physical evidence that you harmed them in any way (better from a legal standpoint).

Now, had it been London’s buddy by himself against this guy and a bunch of his friends, then yeah, striking would definitely be my choice as well. I’m purely talking about the situations where you don’t really want to hurt someone, but you want to convince them that they don’t want any part of fighting you either. For that purpose, grappling is pretty ideal, hence why it’s taught to LEO’s and security.[/quote]

If his friends want to fight they won’t feel his pain only see him being held. You and your friends get into a fight. In the US the cops may come, if not damage to surrounding stuff. Keep in mind you also have to keep him there. I started a thread a year or go, might be called end game or something. But the guy grappled and won twice in a fast food place but when he let go the guy attacked again, and when he didn’t he had to hold the guy until the video ended. Plus it may not have even started from a punch but from wailing or one guy trying to grab the smaller. A quick one or two piece is an eye opener in many cases, as well as leaves you on your feet to maneauver where you can get away if you have tto.

24

[quote]Quiet Warrior wrote:
The last stand up martial art I got my hands on was Muay Thai. It was a good idea to pay another 10 bucks to do that in addition to my Kickboxing class. What an amazing form of fighting. Love the clinch and the throws, most of the things we learned there are definitely applicable in a real situation. What was bugging me a lot though was the poor boxing skills many of the guys in this class had. The ones in our club who had switched from Boxing/Kickboxing to MT easily got along in sparring just by using their better punching skills.

Concerning Krav Maga - I believe you should at least take up boxing and some kind of kind of submission fighting art before you start doing all of these Anti-Terror-Fighting-Alpha-Streetsurvival-Special Forces Martial Arts. It’s just like weight lifting. You learn the basic compound movements first and only if you have mastered them you may add up things. Most beginners I think have trouble understanding what the instructors want them to do. they do not own the instincts you have once you reach a certain point in fighting. Think about it: KM is a system that covers weapons, groundfighting, standup fighting with your hands, feet, knees and ellbows, clinching, situation control, deescalation techniques, general submission fighting etc etc.
All of these things are very cool and they definitely help you out.(not trying to bash Krav Maga!) But do you really think some average joe who spends the weekends drinking with his buddies will get anywhere with the density of all that stuff during the first 2 years? Unless you are trained by a freaking Expert or pay a lot of money to make it into a real military close combat class all of these cool things that look so great in action movies won’t get you anywhere. I tell you whats going to happen. Our joe is going to get into a really bad situation one day. Because he thinks he can handle the aggresor he does not run away or call for help. Well, hey he trained some krav maga right? Thats what the special forces do right? And you don’t f*ck with special forces right? Yea buddy. Tell that your lawyer if you ever wake up form your coma.

Most newbs have trouble keeping up their guard when they throw a punch or a kick during the first couple of months. You might wanna teach them that before you tell them what to do if a guy with the shiny bayonet of a M16 approaches you… Then there is footwork, taking punches, bobbing, weaving…all these things that require some months of training in an average boxing class HAVE to be pure instinct to you before you can even think of doing something fancy! You guys get what I want to say?
Hammer the basics first. Learn how to box, kickbox or thaibox. You can also take up Kyokushin if you want. Any decent form of standup fighting with full contact training is going to get you somewhere. Once you have learned the basics you may try other stuff and broaden your horizon of applicable tools.You can still join some good Krav Maga seminars by the way. Crosstraining is a great way to improve your martial skills.
Personally I would recommend taking up Kali in addition to boxing if you really want to be “prepared” for whatever comes at you.

I hope this post was not too long and I havent upset anybody.
[/quote]

I can’t speak for KM, because I don’t train in it. But, didn’t you mention they are teaching de-escalation tactics? Don’t you think that someone who was made aware about the dangers of real fighting and that you should only fight as a last resort would not stand and fight someone when they should have run or dialed 911? I’d say that in my experience, the RMA people have much less delusions of grandeur and are much less eager to stand and fight than sport martial artists (because that is ALL sport martial arts do teach you, albeit well).

But again, I can’t speak for KM, and seeing how much it has grown in recent years I’m sure that the quality of instruction in some of the schools is not all that great (which can also honestly be said about boxing, BJJ, MT, or any widely available martial art/combat sport form).

I’m totally with you about basics though, if you aren’t learning and drilling basics for the majority of your time when you first start out, you aren’t going to go very far.

25

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
I started a thread a year or go, might be called end game or something. But the guy grappled and won twice in a fast food place but when he let go the guy attacked again, and when he didn’t he had to hold the guy until the video ended. Plus it may not have even started from a punch but from wailing or one guy trying to grab the smaller. A quick one or two piece is an eye opener in many cases, as well as leaves you on your feet to maneauver where you can get away if you have tto.[/quote]

Hahah I remember that thread. It was the prime example of why I’m not a grappling fan.

And this video remains my favorite when it comes to why I will always think that, for streefights, boxing does you best.

26

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren’t any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he’d made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It’s all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.

[/quote]

Well, if we’re talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you’re going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I’d say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn’t necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).[/quote]

I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let’s take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he’s hurting but not in danger of dying, and you’re separated already and saying to the other guys “Let’s not take this farther.” From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better… but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.[/quote]

Ok, let’s take what London said;

Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

Now obviously this takes training to pull off and won’t necessarily work against a skilled boxer (but them most skilled boxers aren’t going to throw sloppy haymakers at you in the first place), but against your average “tough guy”, the shock and pain of feeling his radial nerve getting smashed between your ulnar bone and his radial bone is going to create a momentary stun or lapse in his attack and give you the time required to do the rest of the movement.

Or, my preferred method, “spear” his haymaker (causing a simultaneous strike to his radial nerve and carotid sinus), thus again stunning him (if no KO’ing him), and then (assuming this scenario, and assuming you don’t want to simply knee him in the testicles and end the fight right then and there), trace your left hand down to his wrist and reach around underneath his elbow with your right arm, placing your right radial bone behind the Golgi tendon organ of his right triceps, your head on his shoulder (to prevent him from being able to hit you or get to your hands, and simultaneously pull your right wits towards you and push his left wrist in the opposite direction, again creating a standing armbar. He will again be up on his toes in severe pain and thus very easy to move around (if need be), and convince that he should tell his buddies to back off.

The good thing about grappling is that even though you can potentially destroy joints or render someone unconscious with it, you don’t usually have to, and once they calm down and you let them go, they have sustained no permanent damage, and in fact there is no physical evidence that you harmed them in any way (better from a legal standpoint).

Now, had it been London’s buddy by himself against this guy and a bunch of his friends, then yeah, striking would definitely be my choice as well.
[/quote]

I’ll be honest, as soon as you start describing moves like that my eyes gloss over.

Just keep in mind I’m not saying grappling DOESN’T work in the specific one-on-one situation. I’m just saying that I think hitting is better. I’m not trying to convert you, but realize that there’s no chance I’m going to agree with you on this one, either.

In my experience - real experience - if you’re gonna grapple with my buddy, I have time to hit you a shitload of times while your attention ISN’T on me. Honestly, I can’t ask for a better time to sucker punch the shit out of you because you literally can’t let go because of the guy in front of you, and you’re all tangled up. That was a lot of fun sometimes.

Again, just my opinion. [/quote]

We’re talking about something that is going to come on and end in less than a second and can result in me either breaking the person’s arm or using them as a human shield to keep you off of me. It’s not going to be a long drawn out grappling match like you see in BJJ tournaments or the UFC.

And there is nothing to convert, given different circumstances I would have agreed that striking would have been a better choice. But with the specific circumstances that London cited, and given the idea that you didn’t want to hurt the person too badly, this would be one potential option, that is all.

There is no “right” or “wrong” other than, did it work?

27

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren’t any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he’d made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It’s all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.

[/quote]

Well, if we’re talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you’re going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I’d say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn’t necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).[/quote]

I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let’s take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he’s hurting but not in danger of dying, and you’re separated already and saying to the other guys “Let’s not take this farther.” From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better… but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.[/quote]

Ok, let’s take what London said;

Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

Now obviously this takes training to pull off and won’t necessarily work against a skilled boxer (but them most skilled boxers aren’t going to throw sloppy haymakers at you in the first place), but against your average “tough guy”, the shock and pain of feeling his radial nerve getting smashed between your ulnar bone and his radial bone is going to create a momentary stun or lapse in his attack and give you the time required to do the rest of the movement.

Or, my preferred method, “spear” his haymaker (causing a simultaneous strike to his radial nerve and carotid sinus), thus again stunning him (if no KO’ing him), and then (assuming this scenario, and assuming you don’t want to simply knee him in the testicles and end the fight right then and there), trace your left hand down to his wrist and reach around underneath his elbow with your right arm, placing your right radial bone behind the Golgi tendon organ of his right triceps, your head on his shoulder (to prevent him from being able to hit you or get to your hands, and simultaneously pull your right wits towards you and push his left wrist in the opposite direction, again creating a standing armbar. He will again be up on his toes in severe pain and thus very easy to move around (if need be), and convince that he should tell his buddies to back off.

The good thing about grappling is that even though you can potentially destroy joints or render someone unconscious with it, you don’t usually have to, and once they calm down and you let them go, they have sustained no permanent damage, and in fact there is no physical evidence that you harmed them in any way (better from a legal standpoint).

Now, had it been London’s buddy by himself against this guy and a bunch of his friends, then yeah, striking would definitely be my choice as well.
[/quote]

I’ll be honest, as soon as you start describing moves like that my eyes gloss over.

Just keep in mind I’m not saying grappling DOESN’T work in the specific one-on-one situation. I’m just saying that I think hitting is better. I’m not trying to convert you, but realize that there’s no chance I’m going to agree with you on this one, either.

In my experience - real experience - if you’re gonna grapple with my buddy, I have time to hit you a shitload of times while your attention ISN’T on me. Honestly, I can’t ask for a better time to sucker punch the shit out of you because you literally can’t let go because of the guy in front of you, and you’re all tangled up. That was a lot of fun sometimes.

Again, just my opinion. [/quote]

We’re talking about something that is going to come on and end in less than a second and can result in me either breaking the person’s arm or using them as a human shield to keep you off of me. It’s not going to be a long drawn out grappling match like you see in BJJ tournaments or the UFC.

And there is nothing to convert, given different circumstances I would have agreed that striking would have been a better choice. But with the specific circumstances that London cited, and given the idea that you didn’t want to hurt the person too badly, this would be one potential option, that is all.

There is no “right” or “wrong” other than, did it work?[/quote]

My experiences dictate that it will not be a split second. But again, fair enough. I simply disagree.

By the way, if a guy swings at me… I do want to hurt him. I’d rather hit him with one shot and floor him. That’s just my style.

28

In most cases I would too. So, I’d probably opt to SPEAR and knee the person in the testicles (which believe me, is going to drop him and end his participation in the fight).

There are circumstances where I wouldn’t want to though, and in those I at least have other options. If all you know how to do is to punch people, then that’s all you can do. Which, hey, might be fine by you, but I like having more than one option.

29

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren’t any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he’d made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It’s all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.

[/quote]

Well, if we’re talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you’re going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I’d say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn’t necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).[/quote]

I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let’s take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he’s hurting but not in danger of dying, and you’re separated already and saying to the other guys “Let’s not take this farther.” From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better… but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.[/quote]

Ok, let’s take what London said;

Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you “dead arm block” him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker’s right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

Now obviously this takes training to pull off and won’t necessarily work against a skilled boxer (but them most skilled boxers aren’t going to throw sloppy haymakers at you in the first place), but against your average “tough guy”, the shock and pain of feeling his radial nerve getting smashed between your ulnar bone and his radial bone is going to create a momentary stun or lapse in his attack and give you the time required to do the rest of the movement.

Or, my preferred method, “spear” his haymaker (causing a simultaneous strike to his radial nerve and carotid sinus), thus again stunning him (if no KO’ing him), and then (assuming this scenario, and assuming you don’t want to simply knee him in the testicles and end the fight right then and there), trace your left hand down to his wrist and reach around underneath his elbow with your right arm, placing your right radial bone behind the Golgi tendon organ of his right triceps, your head on his shoulder (to prevent him from being able to hit you or get to your hands, and simultaneously pull your right wits towards you and push his left wrist in the opposite direction, again creating a standing armbar. He will again be up on his toes in severe pain and thus very easy to move around (if need be), and convince that he should tell his buddies to back off.

The good thing about grappling is that even though you can potentially destroy joints or render someone unconscious with it, you don’t usually have to, and once they calm down and you let them go, they have sustained no permanent damage, and in fact there is no physical evidence that you harmed them in any way (better from a legal standpoint).

Now, had it been London’s buddy by himself against this guy and a bunch of his friends, then yeah, striking would definitely be my choice as well. I’m purely talking about the situations where you don’t really want to hurt someone, but you want to convince them that they don’t want any part of fighting you either. For that purpose, grappling is pretty ideal, hence why it’s taught to LEO’s and security.[/quote]

If his friends want to fight they won’t feel his pain only see him being held. You and your friends get into a fight. In the US the cops may come, if not damage to surrounding stuff. Keep in mind you also have to keep him there. I started a thread a year or go, might be called end game or something. But the guy grappled and won twice in a fast food place but when he let go the guy attacked again, and when he didn’t he had to hold the guy until the video ended. Plus it may not have even started from a punch but from wailing or one guy trying to grab the smaller. A quick one or two piece is an eye opener in many cases, as well as leaves you on your feet to maneauver where you can get away if you have tto.[/quote]

Perhaps you’re just not following what I’m saying because you’re unfamiliar with standing grappling/locking skills. I’m not talking about rolling around on the ground with someone. I’m talking about, they swing at me, but instead of feeling their fist connect with my head as they anticipated they experience a sudden sharp and unexpected pain in their punching arm (which is going to feel like their whole arm went dead, especially if they punch really hard) and (in the case where I SPEAR them) a simultaneous strike to the side of their neck (so instead of ducking their punch and then hitting them, I’ve for all intents and purposes hit them, once or twice immediately). Before they can recover then are feeling their elbow joint being extended right to the point before it is about to snap.

And that’s it 90% of the time. If they have enough where with all to try to twist their arm out of the straight armbar, they’re going going to wind up with me busting their shoulder in one direction or the other and possibly getting their head spiked into the ground or in a great position for me to break their neck or knee them in the head. And again, I’m going to make that adjustment way faster than they are (unless they are a highly trained Jiu-Jitsu stylist, which again, means they’d be unlikely to throw a haymaker in the first place) because I’ve done it literally thousands of times and I know they only have two options from there.

And in the rare case where they did know enough to defend the lock, I can just as easily switch to striking, eye attacks, or whatever else is available at that time and place.

Once more though, I’m not in any way suggesting this is the ONLY solution, just saying that it is a viable one under the right circumstances.

30

I’m going to try keep this short and sweet:

  1. I agree with Irish and London in that striking is most efficient way in ending the fight, the example of the rib strike is an excellent example.

  2. In relation to the whole boxing v mauy thai, why not both?

  3. In terms of self defence the way I like to look at it is in terms of having tools, the more tools you have the better off your’e going to be. The same goes for your opponent(s) the more tools he has, the better chance he has of beating you:
    a. Striking, from any style, thats one up for you.
    b. Pre fight skills that’s one up.
    c. Post fight, one up.
    d. Dealing with weapons, one up.
    e. Grappling, 1+
    You get the point. A lot of those skills however are only taught through systems like Krav Maga and a lot of the time they’ll be just as important, if not more so, than your fighting prowess. However, I agree that most Krav Maga schools have questionable striking skills and cross-training is a must.

The main thing to ask yourself OP as someone already said; when you picture yourself in self defense situation are you being pinned against the wall with a guy holding a knife to your throat? Or are you in the pub squaring off with some drunk?

31

People overthink this stuff…if you want to train Muay Thai for self-defense…go for it. BUT always remember…Muay Thai…is a sport with rules. With that,I’d focus lot of attention on clinch,understanding distance, elbows, knee techniques. S.P.E.A.R. would be great compliment to those things.

32

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I would also look into boxing before MT, only because MT guys punch like shit and rarely teach anything but that straight ahead shit.

Slipping a punch and landing a hook to a guy’s ribs in a bar will let him know real quick you’re not the guy to mess around with.

That’s just my opinion.[/quote]
Then they would definitely get the point with a MT guy who can punch and use angles :stuck_out_tongue:

33

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I would also look into boxing before MT, only because MT guys punch like shit and rarely teach anything but that straight ahead shit.

Slipping a punch and landing a hook to a guy’s ribs in a bar will let him know real quick you’re not the guy to mess around with.

That’s just my opinion.[/quote]

lOL… Whilst I agree about MT boxing, have you ever had your neck reefed in and knee pushed into your face? Perhaps a nice knee to the ribs or thudding teep bending your knee backwards? Even a simple step through roundhouse to your thigh full power? I’ve seen them done in the street and done them in yard fights when I was still a teen. They are not fun to receive and guarantee you they will be just as effective. Sure MT guys can’t punch like Tyson or move like Mayweather but they can sure as hell take a lot of punishment and dish out insane leg and body punishment not to mention put slots in your head for mad money box decorations. considering most fights start with punches end up in a shirt grabbing competition and dirty boxing, if you know how to grab a neck and reef in a knee, they’re gonna be less hurtful to your hands and much more damaging to your opponent. Muay Thai stand up grappling is more effective than wrestling and jits with only Judo being better. For me a combo of MT and Judo takes the win provided one has proper boxing

34

Whilst on this, I got to train with a Super Heavy boxer who has fought world opponents. Sure he had it over me at a distance but as soon as we got in close, he had no clue how to effectively place his hips, his body, his feet and manipulate the opponent with subtle jerks to where he wanted. He outweighed me by 15 kg and out experienced me by 100’s of fights but had never been taught subtleties of holding on and turning.

Kostya was good at this and would rag doll his opponents. Likewise Muay Thai guys are awesome at this and can throw you off whilst being half your body weight. I spent the next 3 sparring sessions afterwards teaching him the subtleties to which he was fascinated.

35

No doubt. There is always things to be learned from other disciplines. Even boxing today is a different beast to what it was when Dempsey and the likes were involved. Back then, there were a hell of a lot more of the positioning/grappling techniques you are referring to Humble, and there’s no doubt you are right, they can be major advantages.

I think the main point that Irish and I are going for though is that there are very few occasions where a hard clean hit in the head from a trained boxer won’t do the business, without you being tied up in a clinch/grappling situation. My view, which i think is in line with Irish’s, is that as soon as you introduce a situation where another guy has the chance to grab you, you are introducing a lot more unknowns. The advantage of the straight striking in 99% of situations is that one guy is on the floor and the other guy is in space.

Personally, I think the jury is out on kicks. All very well if you are brilliant at it, but I’ve seen enough people throw kicks at doormen and end up on their backs, leg up, with their balls/ribs/head being stamped on to think that kicking is not something I’d ever risk in a proper fight. Admittedly, I have no idea whether any of these guys were actual fighters, or had just watched too much bruce lee. I do think kicks are inherently more dangerous if you’re going to brawl though. Not least cos of the lack of balance of being on one foot, which to me is never an advantage.

36

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Personally, I think the jury is out on kicks. All very well if you are brilliant at it, but I’ve seen enough people throw kicks at doormen and end up on their backs, leg up, with their balls/ribs/head being stamped on to think that kicking is not something I’d ever risk in a proper fight. Admittedly, I have no idea whether any of these guys were actual fighters, or had just watched too much bruce lee. I do think kicks are inherently more dangerous if you’re going to brawl though. Not least cos of the lack of balance of being on one foot, which to me is never an advantage. [/quote]

There’s a reason people like Bruce Lee (and many others) were against kicks above the waist. kicks to the groin or the thighs are fine in a SD scenario, high kicks aren’t; the few bouncers I know agree.

37

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
My view, which i think is in line with Irish’s, is that as soon as you introduce a situation where another guy has the chance to grab you, you are introducing a lot more unknowns. The advantage of the straight striking in 99% of situations is that one guy is on the floor and the other guy is in space.
[/quote]

I think you are both underestimating the speed at which a solid knee strike from a trained MT fighter, or RMA striker who knows what they’re doing, to the solar plexus, groin, or head is going to drop someone. And, since one of the best strategies against multiple opponents is “clustering” (basically using one opponent to block the other(s) access to you so you only have to fight one at a time) and you learn very quickly how to maneuver someone in a “Thai Clinch”, even if you don’t drop them with that first shot (which you most likely will), you can still use their body to block the other opponent’s access to you (while simultaneously landing more knee strikes, kicks, elbows, or what ever other types of strikes you want to).

That said, I largely agree with you guys that in most cases, you are going to want to be as mobile as possible and that means not getting entangled with someone. But that’s usually the second or third opponent. You really don’t have a choice with the first person, as you are reacting to their initial attack, and as such are at least somewhat at the mercy of what they decide to do, unless maybe you have outstanding “pre-contact cue” awareness, you are extremely gifted speedwise, or your opponent is falling down drunk or extremely slow.

[quote]
Personally, I think the jury is out on kicks. All very well if you are brilliant at it, but I’ve seen enough people throw kicks at doormen and end up on their backs, leg up, with their balls/ribs/head being stamped on to think that kicking is not something I’d ever risk in a proper fight. Admittedly, I have no idea whether any of these guys were actual fighters, or had just watched too much bruce lee. I do think kicks are inherently more dangerous if you’re going to brawl though. Not least cos of the lack of balance of being on one foot, which to me is never an advantage. [/quote]

I am willing to bet money that I could kick you in the groin, ankles, or thighs without you being able to catch my kicks. Most people can’t kick for crap and don’t set them up right. Trust me, had any of them been real fighters, those doormen would have been on the ground, and not getting back up any time soon.

It is true that your mobility and balance are somewhat compromised when on one foot though, so if we’re talking about a melee situation or all out bar room brawl (especially due to the close proximity/lack of room), then I’d agree that it’s better to keep both feet on the ground for movement/bracing/driving purposes and use the hands for offense.

So, again, it all comes down to context and skill. Both systems have good things to offer, as do wrestling, Judo, BJJ, JJJ, RMA’s like S.P.E.A.R, weapons systems like Arnis, etc…

38

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Personally, I think the jury is out on kicks. All very well if you are brilliant at it, but I’ve seen enough people throw kicks at doormen and end up on their backs, leg up, with their balls/ribs/head being stamped on to think that kicking is not something I’d ever risk in a proper fight. Admittedly, I have no idea whether any of these guys were actual fighters, or had just watched too much bruce lee. I do think kicks are inherently more dangerous if you’re going to brawl though. Not least cos of the lack of balance of being on one foot, which to me is never an advantage. [/quote]

There’s a reason people like Bruce Lee (and many others) were against kicks above the waist. kicks to the groin or the thighs are fine in a SD scenario, high kicks aren’t; the few bouncers I know agree.
[/quote]

FWIW I agree with this, in theory. I am primarily an RMA guy these days and have trained to deliver low kicks in an SD situation. The classic “Thai” round kick to the outer thigh in particular seems like it should be very effective.

However, any time I’ve found myself in a tussle of any kind I’ve gotta tell you kicking was the furthest thing from my mind. I fancy myself a somewhat competent kicker, but the whole idea of kicking in a “real” situation just gives me the willies. Knees, yes, absolutely. Kicks, even low kicks, not so much. They “should” work, but I just can’t get there.

To answer the OP, if the MT school is good and the Krav schools aren’t, the choice is kind of obvious IMO. The cerebral/legal/moral side of things, as Sento points out, is critical, but, as Irish points out, you really can get a lot of that from reading on your own, if you discipline yourself to do so. IMO you are further ahead to train in a good MT (or other somewhat “street-effective” TMA or sport) school and read good, thought provoking literature than to train at a mediocre Krav or other RMA school that does a so-so job of trying to cover it all (if that’s all that’s available to you).

39

[quote]humble wrote:
Muay Thai stand up grappling is more effective than wrestling and jits with only Judo being better. For me a combo of MT and Judo takes the win provided one has proper boxing[/quote]

I think you need to be careful making blanket statements like this. Wrestling and good JJ can be devastatingly effective in a standing clinch. Not saying that I disagree that MT and Judo can be too though.

40

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Personally, I think the jury is out on kicks. All very well if you are brilliant at it, but I’ve seen enough people throw kicks at doormen and end up on their backs, leg up, with their balls/ribs/head being stamped on to think that kicking is not something I’d ever risk in a proper fight. Admittedly, I have no idea whether any of these guys were actual fighters, or had just watched too much bruce lee. I do think kicks are inherently more dangerous if you’re going to brawl though. Not least cos of the lack of balance of being on one foot, which to me is never an advantage. [/quote]

There’s a reason people like Bruce Lee (and many others) were against kicks above the waist. kicks to the groin or the thighs are fine in a SD scenario, high kicks aren’t; the few bouncers I know agree.
[/quote]

FWIW I agree with this, in theory. I am primarily an RMA guy these days and have trained to deliver low kicks in an SD situation. The classic “Thai” round kick to the outer thigh in particular seems like it should be very effective.

However, any time I’ve found myself in a tussle of any kind I’ve gotta tell you kicking was the furthest thing from my mind. I fancy myself a somewhat competent kicker, but the whole idea of kicking in a “real” situation just gives me the willies. Knees, yes, absolutely. Kicks, even low kicks, not so much. They “should” work, but I just can’t get there.

To answer the OP, if the MT school is good and the Krav schools aren’t, the choice is kind of obvious IMO. The cerebral/legal/moral side of things, as Sento points out, is critical, but, as Irish points out, you really can get a lot of that from reading on your own, if you discipline yourself to do so. IMO you are further ahead to train in a good MT (or other somewhat “street-effective” TMA or sport) school and read good, thought provoking literature than to train at a mediocre Krav or other RMA school that does a so-so job of trying to cover it all (if that’s all that’s available to you).[/quote]

Agreed.

In regards to kicking in a real situation, you have to understand that just like any other technique, in order for a kick to be a good choice you need:

  1. To be at the right range- if you are too close or too far away it’s not going to be a great choice of attack

  2. The target to become accessible- if I SPEAR your attempted haymaker sucker punch and knee you in the solar plexus and you crumple, but stay on your feet and back up, covering your body, while turning your head and body away (thus making them less accessible), which ever leg is forward is bent (there is weight on it) and becomes the closest target. From there a solid round/cut/Thai kick to your thigh, or side kick to your knee are going to be great choices for me to completely drop you and give me time to either move in for the kill, or get out of Dodge.

  3. To be in a situation where you can afford to stand on one foot (even if only momentarily). Like was mentioned above, if it’s just you and one other person, fine, kick away, but if you’re in the middle of chaos, keep it to hand techniques and anti-grappling.