T Nation

Mr. Universe Arrested For Assault

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:

By DB’s account of the story, the physical confrontation started when an officer put his hands on Mr. Universe. Just because you are a police officer does not give you the right to put your hands on me until you are certain I have broken the law. They were definitely not certain of the fact that he broke the law. They thought he was drunk. [/quote]

I didn’t give an account of the story, in fact I stated more than once that I don’t know exactly went down because I wasn’t there. What I offered was a hypothetical example.

As for everyone posting on here guaranteeing that a jury will absolutely, positively side with Mr. Universe, all I can ask is, were you an eye-witness and are you testifying on behalf of the complainant? If not, stop making guarantees until more facts come out.

Chances are this will never go to court anyway because if there is any doubt that excessive force was used, the parties will likely settle.

Isn’t it interesting how we all fill in the blanks based on our own prejudices?

DB

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
BradTGIF wrote:
By no means am I defending the po-po on this one, all I’m saying is that mistakes can be made.
B.

I fully understand that mistakes can be made. But in short you are agreeing with us that they didn’t need to use any force against him until they assessed the situation correctly. Talking would have worked.
[/quote]

Yup.

[quote]SLERG wrote:
There are some valid points being made here, but my first thought was, skinny little cop, that is scared to death of muscleheads, overreacts, and has to use force on someone that actually needs medical attention.

[/quote]

This is what I thought when I read the report. Either skinny or out of shape, but nonetheless, scared and intimidated.

I mean Burns states he didnt do anything, the officers state they grabbed him and he threw off one of the officers. Since when is it common police practice to grab someone before questioning them?

It strongly appears the officers acted wrongly, possibly on behalf of their emotion (fear) without the benefit of their intellect.

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
TrainerinDC wrote:

As for everyone posting on here guaranteeing that a jury will absolutely, positively side with Mr. Universe, all I can ask is, were you an eye-witness and are you testifying on behalf of the complainant? If not, stop making guarantees until more facts come out.

[/quote]

People speculate based on personal accounts of the situation.

If the police had a hard case against this guy, don’t you think they would have already pressed charges against him, which they haven’t? They have not pressed charges because they know their case holds no ground.

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
TrainerinDC wrote:

As for everyone posting on here guaranteeing that a jury will absolutely, positively side with Mr. Universe, all I can ask is, were you an eye-witness and are you testifying on behalf of the complainant? If not, stop making guarantees until more facts come out.

People speculate based on personal accounts of the situation.

If the police had a hard case against this guy, don’t you think they would have already pressed charges against him, which they haven’t? They have not pressed charges because they know their case holds no ground.

[/quote]

He has been charged for misdemeanor assault and resisting arrest.

According to this report
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20070403-0505-mr.universe-arrest.html
it doesn’t say whether or not the police grabbed him first.

Has anyone seen any updated reports on this? I’m interested to see some eyewitness accounts - they seem to be surprisingly missing from the reports I’ve seen.

DB

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
It’s a little different scenario. When a Dr. is treating him, there is no threat of bodily harm to anyone in the vicinity. HAve the patient assault the Dr.s assistant as he is making a diagnosis and see how well he performs.
So we think that police officers should have to go through a year of medical training now?[/quote]

First, just to clear something up, if you honestly believe that doctors don’t ever find themselves in confrontations with patients, you don’t have a clue about what is involved. As far as that last statement, however, I would expect people who have taken it upon themselves to monitor the public as authority figures to also be knowledgable about the symptoms of a disease so common that soon nearly half of the people in this country will either have it or be on their way to getting it. This isn’t some rare disease that only those with medical training know about. This is DIABETES. Chances are, you have stood next to several people with it over the course of your day.

[quote]

I don’t know if the officers used excessive force or not - I wasn’t there. But nothing I read seemed to indicate that they put a Rodney King hurting on the guy.

Their job is to subdue an unruly person with an appropriate level of force. I would be willing to bet that any of us would err on the side of a little too much force to control a situation than too little and risk losing the initiative and getting someone else hurt. [/quote]

If you have the power to hold a weapon and legally kill someone, you should also have the self control to monitor a situation before acting. Is it risky? Yes. Didn’t they know that before they became cops?

[quote]
All I’m trying to say is that these situations are not as clear cut as people like to make them. I’ve never been a cop, but I’ve known several and heard some of their stories about trying to subdue people who look harmless at first and next thing you know, a cop has a broken nose or a derelict locked in a bite on his arm - possible transmitting God-knows-what.

DB[/quote]

As someone already mentioned, anyone with some size on them has seen the looks and the level of alertness from cops when just walking past them. It isn’t too much of a leap to think the same thing happened here simply because they saw a big guy standing in front of them.

The bright side is, I guess it’s a good thing he wasn’t a minority.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
The bright side is, I guess it’s a good thing he wasn’t a minority. [/quote]

90% of the time or more I would tell you that this statement is bs. In this situation I would have to agree. There was no reason for force. A simple question would have handled it.

If you look at both sides of the issue, its probably a good thing he wasn’t a minority for the authorities as well. How big would the backlash be if the minority groups were involved as well? How much egg would be on the face of the local police department.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Can I see a show of hands for all those that witnessed this incident firsthand?

Anyone?

All I’ve been saying all along is that these kinds of events are rarely clear cut. There’s also a strong possibility that both sides were in the wrong. Until the facts come out, none of us knows exactly what happened or how it will turn out.

Apparently, it’s not a real big story since nothing has been released since.

DB

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
Can I see a show of hands for all those that witnessed this incident firsthand?

Anyone?

All I’ve been saying all along is that these kinds of events are rarely clear cut. There’s also a strong possibility that both sides were in the wrong. Until the facts come out, none of us knows exactly what happened or how it will turn out.

Apparently, it’s not a real big story since nothing has been released since.

DB[/quote]

DB, what you’re overlooking is that Mr. Universe was suffering from a medical condition. How can he be in the wrong?

It’s like trying to convict a person who had an epileptic siezure in a public place of disturbing the peace.

[quote]BradTGIF wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
Can I see a show of hands for all those that witnessed this incident firsthand?

Anyone?

All I’ve been saying all along is that these kinds of events are rarely clear cut. There’s also a strong possibility that both sides were in the wrong. Until the facts come out, none of us knows exactly what happened or how it will turn out.

Apparently, it’s not a real big story since nothing has been released since.

DB

DB, what you’re overlooking is that Mr. Universe was suffering from a medical condition. How can he be in the wrong?

It’s like trying to convict a person who had an epileptic siezure in a public place of disturbing the peace.

[/quote]

I take it from your comparison that you were there and could see that he had absolutely no phyiscal control over his body, like someone in an epileptic convulsion? This represents some additional information. Thank you. I didn’t see anything in the reports that indicated he was having a seizure.

DB

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Who the hell knows what really happened? Not me. It could have gone either way.

I will reserve judgement until more facts are in.

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
BradTGIF wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
Can I see a show of hands for all those that witnessed this incident firsthand?

Anyone?

All I’ve been saying all along is that these kinds of events are rarely clear cut. There’s also a strong possibility that both sides were in the wrong. Until the facts come out, none of us knows exactly what happened or how it will turn out.

Apparently, it’s not a real big story since nothing has been released since.

DB

DB, what you’re overlooking is that Mr. Universe was suffering from a medical condition. How can he be in the wrong?

It’s like trying to convict a person who had an epileptic siezure in a public place of disturbing the peace.

I take it from your comparison that you were there and could see that he had absolutely no phyiscal control over his body, like someone in an epileptic convulsion? This represents some additional information. Thank you. I didn’t see anything in the reports that indicated he was having a seizure.

DB[/quote]

Why are you assuming he just went on a rampage for the hell of it?

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the symptoms of Insulin Shock. It’s pretty obvious that you have never witnessed someone go into insulin shock first hand, otherwise you would know how combative and basically loopy they get. Almost like someone with a concussion, their consciousness is altered.

And yes sometimes they get argumentative, stubborn and even violent. They basically lose all cognitive reasoning and the reptilian part of the brain is in control. Fight or Flight that’s it, not right and wrong.

[quote]grew7 wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
Picture this, you’re a cop arriving at the theater when you see a guy staggering around, pushing to the front of the concession line and acting strangely. You approach him and your partner grabs him by the arm to turn him around - yeah, probably with a little force, but would you blame them?

Yes, I would. If they’d have talked to him first, this probably wouldn’t have happened. There is no excuse for just grabbing him. There are other ways to get a person’s attention. When you surprise people, they might react in a way that you don’t expect. -.-’[/quote]

And that’s the whole case. He was already ailing and seemingly a bit disoriented, then being grabbed surprised him, and he took a defensive stance.

I think I would have been the same way. If I was just trying to get myself help, and was near collapse, if someone were to suprise me by forcefully grabbing me by the arm, my instinct would be to defend myself.

Here is a much better article, even has an interview with the on the scene EMT, who even says:

“What police did was wrong,” said Lee. “It was explained to them that (Burns) had a medical condition and that this was something that he could not help, and yet they still hand him a citation for assault ? which is totally inappropriate.”

[quote]Professor X wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
It’s a little different scenario. When a Dr. is treating him, there is no threat of bodily harm to anyone in the vicinity.

First, just to clear something up, if you honestly believe that doctors don’t ever find themselves in confrontations with patients, you don’t have a clue about what is involved. [/quote]

Indeed. In a previously FT job I ran security at a hospital. My favorite shifts were graveyards in the ER. Good times.

Did the cops do a perfect job? No, but you can always say someone could have done something better. The part I have a problem with is them giving him citations for the way he was acting while in diabetic shock. That is just asinine.

[quote]Panik wrote:
Here is a much better article, even has an interview with the on the scene EMT, who even says:

“What police did was wrong,” said Lee. “It was explained to them that (Burns) had a medical condition and that this was something that he could not help, and yet they still hand him a citation for assault ? which is totally inappropriate.”

They gave him a citation to scare him and to have something to trade away if he sues.

It is a shame our society has come to this point where a simple misunderstanding has such legal ramifications. Too many lawyers.