T Nation

Moving Shoulders From 'Push' Day


#1

Hi all,

I've been using a push/pull/legs routine the last 3 months and now looking to change things up.

This is how my routine looked

M - am cv
T- Push
W- Legs
T- am cv
F - Pull
S- am cv
S - Push
M - am cv
T - Pull
W - Legs
T - am cv
F - Push

Effectively hitting each upper body part every 4 or 5 days, and legs once a week.

Lifts have plateaued, so I'm going to change over from straight sets to ramping, as this method seems to have yielded good results for a lot of you on here.

My stats are 6"2 , 198 pounds. My diet is good, eating between 4000 and 5000 clean cals a day. Can post if you want.

Looking to bulk. When I bulked last year without any cv I got over 200 pounds, but put on a fair bit of fat, so thats why I've introduced cv in the last couple of months. Usually a light jog for 40 mins before breakfast 3x per week.

I'm currently taking time off from work as studying towards my MCSE. Passed 2 exams, 52 to go. Expect this to been finished in October. So at the mo I pretty much don't move, unless working out or my g/f comes over :wink:

So basically I have plenty of time to workout and rest which should help create an optimal environment for muscle growth.

I do like my current routine and would have liked to have stuck to it, but there's one part that bugs me, and thats my shoulders being much weaker during shoulder pressing movements after 2 chest exercises. When performing shoulders on their own day at the start of the year, i could manager 32kgx 7, but now I struggle to get 6 out of 30kg. Would you say thats a big problem, or would shoulder growth not be effected as they've already been hit in the chest excercises?

I was thinking about going back to 4 day split, hitting each muscle once per week, but I prefer hitting the upper body more frequently. Or another idea is chest with back day 2x per week, 1 legs day and a shoulders with arms day.

Any suggestions for a new routine. Do you think its necessary for shoulders to be at the start of session so I get the most out of them?

Look forward to your ideas.

Thanks


#2

A few ideas. If you want to keep your current rotation, as it seems you do, train shoulders FIRST on that day like you mentioned. Unless you are someone who will say "OMG! but my bench numbers will drop! Then I would suggest training them another day. But whatever bodypart is lagging, that is what I do first.

I would be careful working chest and back 2x a week while everything else 1x a week. Sounds like a recipe for an unbalanced physique. By what you’ve said already, your delts are lagging because you’ve chosen to work chest first every time.

I think a 4 way split might work better for you. 3x a week is usually for TBT. Well, DC is 3x a week, but thats a different story. To use as an example, here is the 4-way split, 1x a week I am using right now.

Mon: Chest, Bis
Tues: Legs
Wed: Off
Thur: Shoulders, Triceps
Fri: Back, Rear Delts


#3

Chest/arms
legs
back/shoulders

Go through it once or twice a week depending on recovery. And absolutely ramp your sets. Ever try rest-pause? Ask here or PM me, if you want some ideas.


#4

Cheers lads, some food for thought with your ideas.

Funny enough Cueball, that is exactly the same split I was using earlier this year. Really enjoyed it, as felt each part was getting hammered sufficiently. No concessions needed for anything. Kept having this nagging doubt in my mind that hitting each bodypart once a week, somehow wasn’t enough. Probably read to many articles on this site :). Certainly could give this a go and give it more of a chance this time around.

Like the sounds of that as well zephead. Would allow me to hit each part more frequently that every 7 days. Always feel drained the day after squatting, so would have a day off there.

Maybe something like

M - Chest+ arms Flat BB Bench/ Incline DB/ Flies or Pec dec/BB Bi curl/ DB Preacher/ Dips (for tri’s)/ Skulls
T- Legs Squat/ Leg Press / Leg Curl/ Calf Press/ Crunches
W - am cv
T - Back/shoulders Deadlift/ Pullups / One arm row/ db shoulder/ lat raise/ reverse fly
F - am cv
S - Chest/arms
S - Legs
M- am cv
T - back shoulders

Do you perform deadlifts on back day?

What do you think of the layout above. Looks like chest and arms day could be a bit much. Possible move biceps to legs day?


#5

Cheers lads, some food for thought with your ideas.

Funny enough Cueball, that is exactly the same split I was using earlier this year. Really enjoyed it, as felt each part was getting hammered sufficiently. No concessions needed for anything. Kept having this nagging doubt in my mind that hitting each bodypart once a week, somehow wasn’t enough. Probably read to many articles on this site :). Certainly could give this a go and give it more of a chance this time around.

Like the sounds of that as well zephead. Would allow me to hit each part more frequently that every 7 days. Always feel drained the day after squatting, so would have a day off there.

Maybe something like

M - Chest+ arms Flat BB Bench/ Incline DB/ Flies or Pec dec/BB Bi curl/ DB Preacher/ Dips (for tri’s)/ Skulls
T- Legs Squat/ Leg Press / Leg Curl/ Calf Press/ Crunches
W - am cv
T - Back/shoulders Deadlift/ Pullups / One arm row/ db shoulder/ lat raise/ reverse fly
F - am cv
S - Chest/arms
S - Legs
M- am cv
T - back shoulders

Do you perform deadlifts on back day?

What do you think of the layout above. Looks like chest and arms day could be a bit much. Possible move biceps to legs day?


#6

Cheers lads, some food for thought with your ideas.

Funny enough Cueball, that is exactly the same split I was using earlier this year. Really enjoyed it, as felt each part was getting hammered sufficiently. No concessions needed for anything. Kept having this nagging doubt in my mind that hitting each bodypart once a week, somehow wasn’t enough. Probably read to many articles on this site :). Certainly could give this a go and give it more of a chance this time around.

Like the sounds of that as well zephead. Would allow me to hit each part more frequently that every 7 days. Always feel drained the day after squatting, so would have a day off there.

Maybe something like

M - Chest+ arms Flat BB Bench/ Incline DB/ Flies or Pec dec/BB Bi curl/ DB Preacher/ Dips (for tri’s)/ Skulls
T- Legs Squat/ Leg Press / Leg Curl/ Calf Press/ Crunches
W - am cv
T - Back/shoulders Deadlift/ Pullups / One arm row/ db shoulder/ lat raise/ reverse fly
F - am cv
S - Chest/arms
S - Legs
M- am cv
T - back shoulders

Do you perform deadlifts on back day?

What do you think of the layout above. Looks like chest and arms day could be a bit much. Possible move biceps to legs day?


#7

M - Chest+ arms Flat BB Bench/ Incline DB/ Flies or Pec dec/BB Bi curl/ DB Preacher/ Dips (for tri’s)/ Skulls
T- Legs Squat/ Leg Press / Leg Curl/ Calf Press/ Crunches
W - am cv
T - Back/shoulders Deadlift/ Pullups / One arm row/ db shoulder/ lat raise/ reverse fly
F - am cv
S - Chest/arms
S - Legs
M- am cv
T - back shoulders

This is what you have.

For purely hypertrophy try:
Chest/arms: low incline barbell rest pause, ramped flat dumbell bench, + rest paused preachers or incline dumbell. ramped deadskulls

Legs: Oly squat, leg press, leg curls, calf press, hanging leg raises

Shoulders/back: Seated DB overhead RP or Smith high incline, lat raises 1x “widowmaker”, Rack deads (if you can handle them) 1x5-8 1x10-15, Lat pulldowns, kroc rows

I’m not sure if I’d run it that frequently yet, and if you did remove the deads/rack pulls, and consider adding SLDL or RDL instead of leg curls. Hang cleans could maybe work though, much less total stress.

I don’t get shit from flys except pain in my shoulders. If you don’t know if they are effective for you, don’t be afraid to cut them to help ease recovery when you try 2x week or close to it.

i’ve got other thoughts on this type of program, but I know what works for me. If you like what I wrote, give it a spin. It certainly won’t fail you.


#8

Well I haven’t done Deads since starting my current program as I thought recovery may be an issue + the diameter of the weight plates in the gym I use are small, so the bar is close to the floor which can cause problems with my form. May count them out for now, although almost feel obliged to have them in my routine.

Do you think it’s worth changing from pullups to lat pulldowns then? I always read its best to do pullups if you can manage a decent amount. I normally knock out 10, 9, 8. I guess the problem with pullups is you can’t ramp as easily as you can doing lat-pulldowns. Is that why you included lat pulldowns instead?

On my current back routine I do the following - Pullups, One arm rows and then cable rows (using straight bar) as a finishing exercise for my back. Would you say its fine to put cable rows in as a 3rd back exercise, if I removed deadlifts? Also have shrugs for my traps.

Also, what are ‘deadskulls’? Did you mean dips or skulls? You would stick with one bi/tri exercise each day then?

Thanks for your help, much appreciated.


#9

[quote]B80 wrote:
Well I haven’t done Deads since starting my current program as I thought recovery may be an issue + the diameter of the weight plates in the gym I use are small, so the bar is close to the floor which can cause problems with my form. May count them out for now, although almost feel obliged to have them in my routine.

Do you think it’s worth changing from pullups to lat pulldowns then? I always read its best to do pullups if you can manage a decent amount. I normally knock out 10, 9, 8. I guess the problem with pullups is you can’t ramp as easily as you can doing lat-pulldowns. Is that why you included lat pulldowns instead?

On my current back routine I do the following - Pullups, One arm rows and then cable rows (using straight bar) as a finishing exercise for my back. Would you say its fine to put cable rows in as a 3rd back exercise, if I removed deadlifts? Also have shrugs for my traps.

Also, what are ‘deadskulls’? Did you mean dips or skulls? You would stick with one bi/tri exercise each day then?

Thanks for your help, much appreciated.[/quote]

Deadskulls are skullcrushers that you pause on the bench at the bottom of the movement. If you remove deadlifts, do rack pulls if you’re hitting back once a week, or shrugs if you’re doing it with more frequency.

I use pulldowns because I don’t feel my lats working nearly as much as with pullups or any variation of them. I use kroc rows because you stretch the lat out at the bottom. I also feel I progress faster, and can work on more technique with lat pulldowns. It’s also much easier IMO to stretch at the top of each rep and really get the contraction at the bottom right. I really believe stretching the lat is a huge part of growth for that muscle.

The arm lifts can be added to, but 1RP set has worked well for me for biceps in the past, my triceps grow like weeds, so I’m not too concerned. But I do a lot of heavy pressing. For triceps incline closegrip may be another option, or If your CNS can handle it, smith machine tricep work.


#10

Currently, I`m doing;
Legs…primarily back squats, sumo deads, leg curls
Chest & Tris…DB, Hammer Strength or Smith incline, Hammer Strength or DB flat, incline cable flyes
Back & Bis…BB rows or 1 arm rows, rack deads, wide grip pulldowns or HS pulldowns, cable curls, hammer curls
Shoulders & traps (wanted to prioritize both so I split them out)…standing military, high incline smith or seated DB, 1 arm cable laterals, cable, DB or machine rear delts, BB or Smith shrugs.

Just about every exercise is ramped (2 to 4 sets leading up an all out set) with the goal being to do more reps or more weight than the last time. On some exercises, I will do one back off set for more reps. For me, writing everything down has made a big difference in mental focus. I know exactly what I did, for example, 2 weeks ago when doing a particular exercise. This time must be an improvement.

Sometimes I stick with the same exercise for consecutive sessions if I am progressing strongly, sometimes I change the main exercise for the muscle group or change the exercise order for that day. Days off are largely dictated by feel, family commitments or random shit.

In the past I have done upper & lower split, TBT and push,pull,legs. So far my current split (been running with it for about 4 months) is working well and I`m going to stick with it for the foreseeable future.