I was watching this video with Rippetoe:
at about 4:35, he says you don’t have to push your hips forward when you stand back up from the squat. What I don’t understand is, why.
Is that because it moves the bar a bit back, putting it (in vertical line) closer to the toes than to the center of the foot?
Wouldn’t pushing the hips forward (like in the deadlift) help the lockout by giving more glutes activation?
Thanks
He means don’t push them forward at the bottom. Once you are halfway up (approximate deadlift position) then push them in.
I’m confused. Once you’re in the bottom position you can’t move your hips forward on themselves, it’s not possible I think, but you have to do it when standing up… you can’t really move up without pushing the hips ahead, it’s the hip hinge mechanic.
And Rippetoe seems to point out that thing when the guy is at the top of the movement and does that slight hip thrust at the end.
Rippetoe also says to use a thumbs-over grip, keep your elbows up, and look down. Is that what all the good lifters do these days?
That’s not the kind of mindset I’m interested into, honestly.
High level lifters tweak technique to their needs because they have years of practice and experience in those lift, plus a perfect insight of how their own bodies work.
They can do it safely, or with a very good estimation of the risk/reward ratio involved.
Just because some elite level lifters can deadlift 4 times their bodyweight with some back rounding and no injuries, doesn’t mean I should start doing it too.
Being a beginner, I’d prefer to stick to the manual and tweak the technique over time if needed.
Case in point, I was wondering about the hips forward, not grip or elbows placement - Amit Sapir in the other thread seemed to validate Rippetoe’s point:
“I agree with the lack of need to push the hips forward - you just need to lock your knees and stand straight up naturally. In squat pushing the hips forward can throw you off balance and just isn’t required to complete the movement effectively. It is a different thing when the weight is on your back vs needing to be moved from the floor.”
The point is that Rippetoe has a specific way of doing things and he seems to think that anything other than that is wrong, he’s not someone I would pay much attention to. You don’t necessarily need to focus on pushing your hips forward because it should happen on its own, if you don’t then you will be stuck in a stiff legged good morning position.
I use the cue of pushing my hips forward because if I don’t, my knees and hips shift backwards either putting me in almost a goodmorning or moving the weight behind my center of balance which worse case scenario can make me fall backwards in the hole.
Rippetoe doesn’t teach a powerlifting squat and he says so in all his books and articles. He teaches a squat technique usable by athletes fr strength development.
In an attempt to clear up the confusion I offer the following.
If you have properly descended into the bottom position (back tight and arched, head forward, thighs parallel to feet, knees as far back as possible), then the first movement on the way up will be to jam the shoulders into the bar with the intent of raising the scapulas upward. The old saying used to be - “where the head goes, the body follows”. Instantaneously after that the hips will push forward and IF the HAMS, CALVES, and QUADS are strong enough, the knees will not push forward AT ALL. They will only move rearward.
If you watch injury footage where lifters have blown out their knee/s (Coan, Dave Tate) the common thread is the the knee moved slightly forward during the first half of the ascent. This is why Good Mornings IMO are worth their weight in gold. You should reach a point where your Good Morning poundage closely follows your squat poundage. The Hams then need to be trained from both directions (knee flexion and hip extension). Finally seated and standing calf raises to assist in maintaining proper knee position in the hole.
So then why should anyone in the powerlifting forum be concerned with his opinion? I’m not training for general strength development, I’m training for powerlifting.
Then I guess I need to apologize for posting this in the Powerlifting section.
There is no “Rippetoe coaching” and no “Strength” section and with the squat being one of PL’s main lifts, I figured it was correct to post it here. I honestly didn’t know about this difference between PL squat vs strength squat and such.
Thanks a lot for chiming in and for the explanation jbackos, makes sense and it’s what I was looking for. I do sit down with almost vertical shins during the back squat and I do find looking slightly down better for balance so yeah, the way Rippetoe shows it for now seems to work for me.
I will keep a close eye on that rearward knees thing you pointed out, had no clue about it
You mentioned him. My post was in response to your comment about his teaching.
Next time read your own post before acting butt hurt and trying to be a smart ass.
The knees will be “as vertical as possible” this will vary according to the individual’s structure and technique differences. As for the head down, if I keep my head down, I feel like I’m falling over, so I keep the head forward and keep my eyes focused on a spot about ten feet off the floor (works for me)
The big picture is to follow principles not dogma. Google Dave Tate’s free squat manual for an excellent writeup.
Maybe the Starting Strength forum would give you a better answer, you could ask Rippetoe directly. Most athletes who don’t compete in powerlifting use high bar squats. Rippetoe says in his SS book that Olympic weightlifters should squat low bar, he gives some explanation as to why but if that were true then how come no WLers do so? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but just because they say one thing doesn’t mean that everyone else is wrong.
I mentioned who? Isn’t this thread about Rippetoe saying not to push your hips forward? You’re the one who seems to be offended, I wasn’t trying to criticize your comment but rather reaffirming my position that Rippetoe isn’t necessarily the best person to listen to if you are into powerlifting, which is basically what you said - “Rippetoe doesn’t teach a powerlifting squat”. I didn’t realize people were so sensitive these days.
Just to provide an alternate opinion, here’s what Greg Nuckols says in his squat manual:
"Once you reach the sticking point, your goal should be to make it through as efficiently as possible.
The biggest mistake people make at this point in the lift is panicking and rushing themselves. When this happens, they’ll let their hips keep rising without the bar moving very much. The net effect is that, even if they made it to the sticking point in a good position, they’re putting themselves in a less mechanically advantageous position, so they’ll have to finish the lift as a good morning (if they finish it at all).
The better strategy is to continue driving your traps back into the bar aggressively, while simultaneously trying to drive your hips under the bar. Your knees will probably shift forward as well.
This feels almost like locking out a deadlift. In a deadlift, when the bar passes the knee, people are cued “shoulders back” and “hips forward” to keep their hips from shooting up higher and to make the lockout much smoother and more efficient. Those are precisely the same cues you should use to get through the sticking point of a squat."
…(referring to a graph and a few studies)
"By trying to drive your hips back under the bar, you decrease the demands on your hip extensors, which are near their limit, and increase the demands on your quads, which can handle more of the load. This ensures that the load remains evenly distributed between the knees and hips to make the lift as efficient as possible.
Though it’s subtle, this video shows this technique well:
I rest my case.
So you show us an olympic lifter performing a high bar squat to prove your point about technique during a powerlifting squat. In a correct powerlifting squat the knees will NEVER move forward on the ascent. PERIOD.
I now rest MY case.
No, asshole, I show you a video of a man squatting 310kg. Does it matter if it’s low bar or high bar and what sport he competes in? Are you stronger than him? Or Greg Nuckols, who uses the same technique? There is more than one way to squat.
This post is breathtakingly stupid. A “correct powerlifting squat” is anything that’s heavy and gets whites.
Thread as a whole isn’t much better. OP, I’d just go through the process you yourself described for advanced athletes. If the Rippetoe style is working for you, run with that and then make those tweaks as you get stronger. May need to make many such adjustments, or relatively few, no way to know. Mike Tuchscherer’s squat at one time looked very similar to the way Rippetoe teaches it. John Haack’s could scarcely look more different. Both great squatters. Different cues work for different guys, and a cue that may be magic for one squatter can just make things worse for you.
This kind of non-answer is all that can really be said about questions like this. Squats more than any other lift are going to differ from one lifter to the next based on what feels right and lets you stay healthy.
Resorting to name calling is usually the method of those who have limited command of the language and an inability to properly debate a point.
Your assertion that a squat is a squat is monumentally misinformed. The mechanics of a high bar and a low bar squat are different. Why don’t you illuminate me by explaining the differences in muscle involvement of the two styles.