T Nation

Morgentaler and Touliatos: Keep Estrogen In a Certain Range

Just saw this on facebook, both of these docs seem to agree that it is very important for estrogen not to be too low nor too high - keeping it in a certain range.

Thoughts, opinions? Lets go

The risk factors in the second pic would all appear to be derived from non-TRT data. For example, “Smaller testicles with reduced fertility” would be anyone on TRT, irrespective of E2 levels. So, what are the references for those risk factors? Their basis? I believe that there is a range, but that it’s different for TRT patients, and too much of anything will exact a price at some point. That said, there are no references and I have yet to read a study that backs those statements up, in spite of the claim that “Studies have shown”.

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A) Touliatos is a quack

B) I have plenty of literature that demolishes these premises with ease.

I’m disappointed in Morgentaler here. The cons vastly outweigh the pros. For gyno a SERM would be way more suitable, temporarily of course, than an aromatase inhibitor.


Thoughts? Lets go? I say OP should listen to these blokes and take an AI, because these men who arent on TRT say so. Any time people say “studies show” but lack the evidence there isn’t much of a conversation to be had.


Ad hominem.

Good read in case you are interested:

Great argument!

Well, when a medical professional consistently spews information that is demonstrably false, do you have a better word for that? I’d be happy to use your word if it makes you feel better. :smirk:

The answer is you don’t call it anything, you attack or refute the argument not the person. It’s more work I understand but given all your effort and visibility in this area, you are held to a higher standard.

Sure, not everyone will appreciate the effort but if we were on here to get “likes” then we wouldn’t be doing this. You are after the truth, wherever it leads. In addition, by demonstrating good debate practice and scientific rigor you will be a proper role model for others on here so the threads don’t devolve into mug slinging. Be all you can be you celebrity testosterone ambassador.


This one literally made me laugh out loud in pure hysterics. Thanks for for this!

I’ve discussed many of his claims at length in my Facebook group. So much so that I literally gave up on it. Not worth my time or my breath anymore. I’ve decided to make more efficient use of my time and reduce it down to a single word. If someone asks me why, specifically, I’ll ask them to present me an arguement he’s made and then I can demonstrate why it’s false. Any time I have tried to demonstrate this to him directly his reply was “you’re not a doctor therefore you don’t know anything”. I even made a video on YouTube debunking some of the claims he has made. When asked for evidence he claimed he didn’t need to send me any, again, because I’m not a doctor. So… quack. I am who I am, love it or hate it :wink:

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@equel, the interesting thing about morgentaler is he is a hude proponent of not blocking estradiol. Not sure if he’s just agreeing to agree because Touliatos tags him in everything. I’ve tried reaching out to him directly. Neal Rouzier is a huge fan of Morgentaler’s work. There is something that diestoadd up here.

Ad hominem.

Thanks for your energy and efforts. Don’t undermine them with fallacious reasoning.

Danny, I think he made a fair observation to be honest. You shouldn’t hate him, but rather the content he publishes. Hate the sin, not the sinner.
We both agree the content is ridiculous, especially when he claims you have to keep it in a range of 20-29 pg/mL. What do you do if in one reading it goes to 31 pg/mL? Take an AI? Decrease your dose? Tissues have their own complex homeostasis system, so preaching intervention on a paracrine hormone narrow serum level range is plain dumb and thank God we know it by now. And it’s obviously thank to you and the doctors you brought forward with their research and so on.
That being said, working on your flaws will help you become a better man and that works for everyone. The “I am what I am” mentality never forged remarkable men, but it’s usually an excuse not to improve themselves.

Anyway, end of OT. The dr. statement is just his own opinion that he didn’t back up with actual science. If he’s not able to provide some, I guess it’s not even worth discussing.


What exactly does the literature disagree with, with regards to Dr Touliatos?
You do not agree with his AI argument?

Aromatase Inhibitors were designed as anticancer medications for women. They serve no purpose with men. The medication itself is toxic but is used in extreme circumstances with cancer patients where the disease is worse than the drug being used to treat it. There is literally not a single study out there that demonstrates the need to block or manage estradiol in a man by any stretch of the imagination, especially in the presence of sufficient androgens. If you believe there is literature to support this you can feel free to provide it. He is incapable of providing any such literature because none exist. In every study where they raised estradiol and a man by raising testosterone, the patient improved. There are only demonstrable benefits and there is no evidence of harm. So putting men on an aromatase inhibitor by default is utterly ridiculous.

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Normal guys with healthy, appropriate testosterone levels don’t take an AI. If the goal of trt is to get you to the place that you’d normally be then why would that require an AI? Of all the abuses in the world of trt clinics the overprescribing of AIs is close to the top of the list.

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Well right off the bat… AIs have no use for men?
That is retarded thinking.
There are many cases where an AI is appropriate. Why would you want to live with high E2, and the manifestations of its symptoms, assuming they are present.

There are some individuals who are outliers and aromatize way too much.

Retarded thinking, he says. Wow.

I asked for you to provide evidence that it should be blocked or managed in any man with sufficient androgens.

Provide your evidence if you believe this to be the case. Also look up what the purpose of an aromatase inhibitor is. It is an anti cancer medication designed for women. If you believe this to be false, provide your evidence.

Considering my statement is retarded, why don’t teenagers require an AI? Where are all their high E2 symptoms?

But I’m the retard. Lol

One can debate the usefulness or appropriateness of treating high e2,

I find it boorish to exclaim that “it was designed as a cancer treatment for women” like that matters at all. This is effectively an ad hominem attack, though admittedly were discussing a drug not a person. What something/anything was designed for has 100% no bearing on its use for anything else. One must evaluate it’s use for the task, full stop. One can debate the merits of performing the task at all or in what degree but original design purpose does not matter.


Sucralose was designed as a pesticide. That is a similarly retarded argument not to consume sucralose or a protein powder. It is just an unscientific basis, I cannot comprehend how one’s brain would jump to such as a logical argument.

I guess the difference is I do not earn money off clickbait and topics that are polarizing such as AI and E2 management. Though you may truly believe what you preach.