More on the War on Drugs

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Yeah it’s fucked up about what happened, but so fucking what? Horrible shit goes down all the time. Sometimes the cops make mistakes; it’s a tough job and it’s ridiculous to think that something like won’t happen. It shouldn’t happen, but it’s going to. What does this have to do with the war on drugs? This is a procedural failure, not a policy failure. They could have been serving any sort of high alert-type warrant and gotten things fouled up. Shit, we don’t even know what really happened. One quote from an officer and one from the victim’s fiance who was hiding? No criminal record? It’s not inconceivable for someone with no record and a pregnant fiance to also be a bigtime drug dealer who may or may not be armed and dangerous. And it wasn’t even confirmed if they did indeed get the wrong address or resident. Not probable, but not impossible either.[/quote]

They were hiding because they did not know they were cops , I have to think you are trolling. Other wise I would think you would feel fine if the cops fucked up at your house. And if you are a cop defending this stupidity , you are what is wrong with cops ( No Remorse )[/quote]

Really? The man’s fiance says they were hiding because they thought they were being robbed so it must be true, right? You don’t know shit about what happened there just like I don’t. Just because this woman alleges that the cops did not identify themselves does not make it so. And to insinuate that I would be fine with the cops mistakenly invading my home because I don’t blindly assume that the statement of this man’s fiance is 100% accurate is ridiculous. There’s no connection between the two. You can go on refusing to believe that it is possible that this man and woman were in fact the legitimate targets of a justifiably dangerous raid. Of course I wouldn’t be ok with the cops fucking up at my house, but if you automatically accept that the cops did indeed fuck up based on one or two statements from a woman who is clearly not an objective source regardless of what actually happened, you’re a fucking dunce.

I am not a cop and don’t even know anyone that well who is one, and I generally don’t really like the police a whole lot. But what does this “alleged” example of human error (in a situation where human error is a very real possibility) have to do with the war on drugs? Does this incident even deserve its own thread? I suppose you thought it did because you have some pre-conceived, unshifting notion that the police are inherently wrong in their actions and you lack the independent thinking to view an episode like this from more than one perspective.

To you, it is an impossibility for the cops to not be at fault, and all I’m saying is that it is wholly ignorant and narrow-minded to even suggest that the cops definitely did fuck up in this case based on one woman’s statement immediately after the death of her fiance. It is even more illogical to prop this up as an example of what’s wrong with the war on drugs. I only wish I could give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is YOU who are trolling, but I’ve seen too many of your other posts to even allow you that much slack. No, you seem to have a rigid, unwavering view of the world that you let be shaped by your equally rigid political beliefs.[/quote]

I can not wrap my head around your argument , Ok the people may have jay walked before in their life and maybe they are not the most objective. But in my 50 some years expeirience I find that the cops are not an objective witness either.

I watched the cops hand cuff an 80 neibor of mine that they thought was involved in a hit and run . When they found out their mistake . he did not even get an apology. The Cops used to be what they called peace officers , today they are wanabe soldiers. With the SWAT teams , when the only tool you have is a hammer then all your problems look like nails

You are entitled to your opinions . I can not see how any one could defend the cops in this [/quote]

Of course the police are equally unobjective as the fiance, but what is it that makes you jump to the side of the “victim” rather than the police when faced with two highly subjective viewpoints? Is it life experience? Dealt with some bad cops? Sure, but I bet you’ve dealt with some criminals as well in some way, shape or form. What about those two different experiences makes you lend more creedence to the fiance rather than the police?[/quote]

I jump to the VICTIMS defense because the cops are as culpable for shooting an unarmed man as any criminal . The war on drugs sets the Police against honorable people then the cops want to say that jay walkers can be very dangerous . I knoe Jay Waliking is against the law . I have dealt with criminals . The big point that make the differense between cop and victim is the victim was shot not the cop. Now if the cop were shot they would IMO be justified in killing the shooter

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]MilSpec105 wrote:
I think there are some details here that need to be clarified.

  1. Was he armed or going for a weapon, specifically a firearm? (any random movement does not warrant deadly force)

  2. Was the warrant, in fact, for him/his residence?

  3. Was this a “knock and announce so they can open the door” warrant or a “whisper hey cops are here then kick down the door” warrant and search.

I am by no means a fan of the current state of law enforcement and was just having a discussion with a close friend who is an officer. We both agreed that many cops are undereducated for their job, have a total us vs them attitude for just about all civilians, and think far to highly of themselves. [/quote]

According to the link provided, we don’t really know any of this shit. That’s my whole point. Why is the OP using this as an example of why we shouldn’t have a war on drugs when we don’t even know what the hell really happened in the first place?[/quote]

I have got to wonder , do you think it was great they killed an innocent man ? What don’t you understand about this that makes it a textbook mistake , all in the name of the WAR ON DRUGS

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I jump to the VICTIMS defense because the cops are as culpable for shooting an unarmed man as any criminal . The war on drugs sets the Police against honorable people then the cops want to say that jay walkers can be very dangerous . I knoe Jay Waliking is against the law . I have dealt with criminals . The big point that make the differense between cop and victim is the victim was shot not the cop. Now if the cop were shot they would IMO be justified in killing the shooter[/quote]

So you are saying a Cop must wait until shot before shooting back? I think this rule must apply to you also. You can not shoot at another person until they have shot you first.

Tasers should be used all the time. Just taze someone, and none of this crap would happen. It also makes for great late night television laughs.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I jump to the VICTIMS defense because the cops are as culpable for shooting an unarmed man as any criminal . The war on drugs sets the Police against honorable people then the cops want to say that jay walkers can be very dangerous . I knoe Jay Waliking is against the law . I have dealt with criminals . The big point that make the differense between cop and victim is the victim was shot not the cop. Now if the cop were shot they would IMO be justified in killing the shooter[/quote]

So you are saying a Cop must wait until shot before shooting back? I think this rule must apply to you also. You can not shoot at another person until they have shot you first.[/quote]

Of course not , my point is the Government is killing people for parking ticket offenses. I am not a cop so tell me , Don’t the recon the situation first meanning send out a spy , look at the criminal record of the ocupant of said Apartment? Or do they send out these wanna be soldiers like they were taking down the Hells Agels clubhouse everytime ?

Bottom line is that warrents should be eliminated. What reason does law enforcement have to render an occupied search and seizure. If you have a suspect that is considered armed and dangerous, why not take the suspect down when he leaves the residence.

I think its stupid to have a wait and see attitude if someone were to kick down your door. Its 2 am and I kick down your door yelling police don’t move. That is an assinine mentatlity to have the expectation that individuals should comply.

I think Pbull said it best:When you have a hammer all your problems look like nails.

http://www.ktnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12660968

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]MilSpec105 wrote:
I think there are some details here that need to be clarified.

  1. Was he armed or going for a weapon, specifically a firearm? (any random movement does not warrant deadly force)

  2. Was the warrant, in fact, for him/his residence?

  3. Was this a “knock and announce so they can open the door” warrant or a “whisper hey cops are here then kick down the door” warrant and search.

I am by no means a fan of the current state of law enforcement and was just having a discussion with a close friend who is an officer. We both agreed that many cops are undereducated for their job, have a total us vs them attitude for just about all civilians, and think far to highly of themselves. [/quote]

According to the link provided, we don’t really know any of this shit. That’s my whole point. Why is the OP using this as an example of why we shouldn’t have a war on drugs when we don’t even know what the hell really happened in the first place?[/quote]

I have got to wonder , do you think it was great they killed an innocent man ? What don’t you understand about this that makes it a textbook mistake , all in the name of the WAR ON DRUGS[/quote]

You’re either delusional or incapable of basic reading comprehension. The original link doesn’t provide any evidence whatsoever to come to any sort of legitimate conclusion about who was at fault. The statement of the fiance is NOT evidence that the police acted mistakenly, just like the statement of the police is not evidence that they acted accordingly. So I don’t know how you arrive at the conclusion that this man is innocent. It very well may be a textbook mistake, but we don’t know that yet. Your conclusions are clearly based on prejudice.

As for the war on drugs, look I don’t support that war in its current form at all. But if this ALLEGED mistake is a result of the war on drugs then by the same logic, when a person is mistakenly shot while the police carry out any sort of high-alert warrant, it would be the enforcement of that law’s fault for the mistake. But we know that isn’t the case. Blaming it on the War on Drugs is a fucking copout that conveniently fits into your pre-conceived, naive worldview. It’s not the war’s fault when shit goes wrong; it’s the people who acted wrongly who are at fault, plain and simple. And in this particular case, we don’t who was at fault. What would you have to say about this whole situation if it turns out the dead guy really was a bigtime drug dealer, perhaps the suspect in the attempted murder of a rival drug dealer, perhaps he had a gun on him after all. We simply don’t know.

Regarding your claim that the war on drugs turns honorable people into criminals and that drug use is akin to jaywalking reveals the full extent of your naivety. Maybe the drug dealers you know are honorable, but that is a rare circumstance. I’ve known a lot of drug dealers and there’s rarely ever any honor amongst them. Many drug dealers are armed and dangerous, which is exactly why the police don’t fuck around when they serve a warrant on one. Many hard drug users turn to crime in order to supplement their habit. Many others become so addicted they whore themselves out (or in rarer cases, their children) for drugs, their children suffer as a result, many kids are taken from their parents, and still others become a major burden on society. In what ways do these facts about some drug users and some drug dealers equate them with jaywalkers? Wake up and smell the roses Pitbull. This ain’t the Summer of Love anymore; the drug culture can get pretty fucking nasty in some places.

[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
http://www.ktnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12660968[/quote]

This is clearly an example of why we should end the War on Prowlers. This cop almost shot an innocent man, so the cops should stop responding to calls about prowlers. The War on Prowlers would have been culpable if the man had actually had been shot. Legalize prowling so we don’t turn honorable people into criminals.

All i was saying is that there are a lot of details missing from the first case. The current case is pretty clear and the officer in question should be disarmed and restricted to checking parking meters.

By: John Stossel

I’m confused. When I walk around busy midtown Manhattan, I often smell marijuana. Despite the crowds, some people smoke weed in public.

Usually the police leave them alone, and yet other times they act like a military force engaged in urban combat. This February, cops stormed a Columbia, Mo., home, killed the family dog and terrorized a 7-year-old boy â?? for what? A tiny quantity of marijuana.

Two years ago, in Prince George’s County, Md., cops raided Cheye Calvo’s home â?? all because a box of marijuana was randomly shipped to his wife as part of a smuggling operation. Only later did the police learn that Calvo was innocent â?? and the mayor of that town.

“When this first happened, I assumed it was just a terrible, terrible mistake,” Calvo said. “But the more I looked into it, the more I realized (it was) business as usual that brought the police through our front door. This is just what they do. We just don’t hear about it. The only reason people heard about my story is that I happened to be a clean-cut white mayor.”

Radley Balko of Reason magazine says more than a hundred police SWAT raids are conducted every day. Does the use of illicit drugs really justify the militarization of the police, the violent disregard for our civil liberties, and the overpopulation of our prisons? It seems hard to believe.

I understand that people on drugs can do terrible harm â?? wreck lives and hurt people. But that’s true for alcohol, too. But alcohol prohibition didn’t work. It created Al Capone and organized crime. Now drug prohibition funds nasty Mexican gangs and the Taliban. Is it worth it? I don’t think so, and I’ll discuss this issue Thursday night on my Fox Business show.

Everything can be abused, but that doesn’t mean government can stop it, or should try to stop it. Government goes astray when it tries to protect us from ourselves.

Many people fear that if drugs were legal, there would be much more use and abuse. That’s possible, but there is little evidence to support that assumption.

In the Netherlands, marijuana has been legal for years. Yet the Dutch are actually less likely to smoke than Americans. Thirty-eight percent of American adolescents have smoked pot, while only 20 percent of Dutch teens have. One Dutch official told me that “we’ve succeeded in making pot boring.”

By contrast, what good has the drug war done? It’s been 40 years since Richard Nixon declared war on drugs. Since then, government has spent billions and officials keep announcing their “successes.” They are always holding press conferences showing off big drug busts. So it’s not like authorities aren’t trying.

We’ve locked up 2.3 million people, a higher percentage than any other country. That allows China to criticize America’s human-rights record because our prisons are “packed with inmates.”

Yet drugs are still everywhere. The war on drugs wrecks far more lives than drugs do!

Need more proof? Fox News runs stories about Mexican cocaine cartels and marijuana gangs that smuggle drugs into Arizona. Few stop to think that legalization would end the violence. There are no Corona beer smugglers. Beer sellers don¹t smuggle. They simply ship their product. Drug laws cause drug crime.

The drug trade moved to Mexico partly because our government funded narcotics police in Colombia and sprayed the growing fields with herbicides. We announced it was a success! We cut way back on the Colombian drug trade.

But so what? All we did was squeeze the balloon. The drug trade moved across the border to Peru, and now it’s moved to Mexico. So the new president of Mexico is squeezing the balloon. Now the trade and the violence are spilling over the border into the United States.

That’s what I call progress. It’s the kind of progress we don’t need.

Economist Ludwig von Mises wrote: “Once the principle is admitted that it is the duty of the government to protect the individual against his own foolishness . . . why not prevent him from reading bad books and bad plays? The mischief done by bad ideologies is more pernicious . . . than that done by narcotic drugs.”

Right on, Ludwig!

The war on drugs is as big a crock of shit as the war on terror. De-criminalize marijuana, regulate it, sell it, tax it, and focus law enforcement on big pushers and leave the personal use alone. Fine the shit out of hard drug violators, thin out the prison system, and draw in revenue.

Most of the crime around drugs stems from the fact that it is illegal.

Just my take.

The above post is the most correct view of the whole war on drugs. Economics has taught me that every action is dictated by an incentive. Look at the incentive here. Illeagal product causes increased risk and thus higher profits. Lack of economic opportunity abroad for the distributors and here for the dealers make that risk-reward benefit swing heavily in favor of being involved in the drug trade.

Now, on the federal end… and this is analagous to the way we perpetuate actual wars as well. They are not meant to be won, just continued. For example, the loop goes like this.

You have Police and prison guard UNIONS. These are very powerful voting institutions. They are going to heavily influence an election or the political process of an area. Obviously, cutting the force or the budget for the force is frowned upon. Then, you have the prison developers. Nobody talks about what a big business the development of prisons is, but its big time money. These people see the profit in creating more prisons, but they need prisonors or a reason to justify the development or expansion of them of course. Thus the put the money in the politicians pocket. The unions put the votes in their pocket. Then the politician gets to say “I am tough on crime, vote for me”. They all win by scratching each others back in that regard.

Thus the dealers and petty gang members need to be around for this to function, which is why they dont get the high level guys, they get the crumbs. Because, that money GOES SOMEWHERE. If you follow that money, often times thats laundered through businesses and then into campaign contributions.

Then you get into the power vacuum. You have rival gangs/ cartels what have you. A good example is what is going on in Jamaica and Mexico currently. Alot of people are dying because a power vacuum is being created by force. You may have a top dog taken out either by the other criminals or by the police… then the rivals fight for power over whats left in the resulting instability. Many people die.

Thus the real losers are the average citizens who are either directly affected by the violence, or pay for this cronyism out of their tax dollars that is no more justifiable than sending money to fckin Pat Robertson.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]MilSpec105 wrote:
I think there are some details here that need to be clarified.

  1. Was he armed or going for a weapon, specifically a firearm? (any random movement does not warrant deadly force)

  2. Was the warrant, in fact, for him/his residence?

  3. Was this a “knock and announce so they can open the door” warrant or a “whisper hey cops are here then kick down the door” warrant and search.

I am by no means a fan of the current state of law enforcement and was just having a discussion with a close friend who is an officer. We both agreed that many cops are undereducated for their job, have a total us vs them attitude for just about all civilians, and think far to highly of themselves. [/quote]

According to the link provided, we don’t really know any of this shit. That’s my whole point. Why is the OP using this as an example of why we shouldn’t have a war on drugs when we don’t even know what the hell really happened in the first place?[/quote]

I have got to wonder , do you think it was great they killed an innocent man ? What don’t you understand about this that makes it a textbook mistake , all in the name of the WAR ON DRUGS[/quote]

You’re either delusional or incapable of basic reading comprehension. The original link doesn’t provide any evidence whatsoever to come to any sort of legitimate conclusion about who was at fault. The statement of the fiance is NOT evidence that the police acted mistakenly, just like the statement of the police is not evidence that they acted accordingly. So I don’t know how you arrive at the conclusion that this man is innocent. It very well may be a textbook mistake, but we don’t know that yet. Your conclusions are clearly based on prejudice.

As for the war on drugs, look I don’t support that war in its current form at all. But if this ALLEGED mistake is a result of the war on drugs then by the same logic, when a person is mistakenly shot while the police carry out any sort of high-alert warrant, it would be the enforcement of that law’s fault for the mistake. But we know that isn’t the case. Blaming it on the War on Drugs is a fucking copout that conveniently fits into your pre-conceived, naive worldview. It’s not the war’s fault when shit goes wrong; it’s the people who acted wrongly who are at fault, plain and simple. And in this particular case, we don’t who was at fault. What would you have to say about this whole situation if it turns out the dead guy really was a bigtime drug dealer, perhaps the suspect in the attempted murder of a rival drug dealer, perhaps he had a gun on him after all. We simply don’t know.

Regarding your claim that the war on drugs turns honorable people into criminals and that drug use is akin to jaywalking reveals the full extent of your naivety. Maybe the drug dealers you know are honorable, but that is a rare circumstance. I’ve known a lot of drug dealers and there’s rarely ever any honor amongst them. Many drug dealers are armed and dangerous, which is exactly why the police don’t fuck around when they serve a warrant on one. Many hard drug users turn to crime in order to supplement their habit. Many others become so addicted they whore themselves out (or in rarer cases, their children) for drugs, their children suffer as a result, many kids are taken from their parents, and still others become a major burden on society. In what ways do these facts about some drug users and some drug dealers equate them with jaywalkers? Wake up and smell the roses Pitbull. This ain’t the Summer of Love anymore; the drug culture can get pretty fucking nasty in some places.[/quote]

On this board , with regularity , there are posts about drug busts that go bad and the cops get a miniscule amount of drugs and do catastrophic damage to everybody including the tax payer . Those cops that killed the guy took a dangeropus marijuana smoker off the street , condemed the child that is probably born now to a life with no father .Now that is GOOD .

It is like these cops have ZERO common sense

Your speal about addicts , they should be treated as sick people and law enforcement should be the LAST resort. Check out Youngstown Ohio , the drug situation does not get much nastier. A little recon could have told them this kid lived 21 years and has never been in trouble , there is a pregnant lady living at the residence . This is not rocket science . You do not have to approach every bust like it is the Hells Angels Club House

If there are kids take the kids away from them , Do you really think you are doing those kids any good killing Dad ? Some drug cases are worse than Jaywalking and some are not…

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
http://www.ktnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12660968[/quote]

This is clearly an example of why we should end the War on Prowlers. This cop almost shot an innocent man, so the cops should stop responding to calls about prowlers. The War on Prowlers would have been culpable if the man had actually had been shot. Legalize prowling so we don’t turn honorable people into criminals.[/quote]

I think the cop should be under investigation , did he shoot him because he thought he was the criminal , it sure sounds that way , why did they detain him ?. I think they should hire cops that are not afraid.

[quote]John S. wrote:
By: John Stossel

I’m confused. When I walk around busy midtown Manhattan, I often smell marijuana. Despite the crowds, some people smoke weed in public.

Usually the police leave them alone, and yet other times they act like a military force engaged in urban combat. This February, cops stormed a Columbia, Mo., home, killed the family dog and terrorized a 7-year-old boy â?? for what? A tiny quantity of marijuana.

Two years ago, in Prince George’s County, Md., cops raided Cheye Calvo’s home â?? all because a box of marijuana was randomly shipped to his wife as part of a smuggling operation. Only later did the police learn that Calvo was innocent â?? and the mayor of that town.

“When this first happened, I assumed it was just a terrible, terrible mistake,” Calvo said. “But the more I looked into it, the more I realized (it was) business as usual that brought the police through our front door. This is just what they do. We just don’t hear about it. The only reason people heard about my story is that I happened to be a clean-cut white mayor.”

Radley Balko of Reason magazine says more than a hundred police SWAT raids are conducted every day. Does the use of illicit drugs really justify the militarization of the police, the violent disregard for our civil liberties, and the overpopulation of our prisons? It seems hard to believe.

I understand that people on drugs can do terrible harm â?? wreck lives and hurt people. But that’s true for alcohol, too. But alcohol prohibition didn’t work. It created Al Capone and organized crime. Now drug prohibition funds nasty Mexican gangs and the Taliban. Is it worth it? I don’t think so, and I’ll discuss this issue Thursday night on my Fox Business show.

Everything can be abused, but that doesn’t mean government can stop it, or should try to stop it. Government goes astray when it tries to protect us from ourselves.

Many people fear that if drugs were legal, there would be much more use and abuse. That’s possible, but there is little evidence to support that assumption.

In the Netherlands, marijuana has been legal for years. Yet the Dutch are actually less likely to smoke than Americans. Thirty-eight percent of American adolescents have smoked pot, while only 20 percent of Dutch teens have. One Dutch official told me that “we’ve succeeded in making pot boring.”

By contrast, what good has the drug war done? It’s been 40 years since Richard Nixon declared war on drugs. Since then, government has spent billions and officials keep announcing their “successes.” They are always holding press conferences showing off big drug busts. So it’s not like authorities aren’t trying.

We’ve locked up 2.3 million people, a higher percentage than any other country. That allows China to criticize America’s human-rights record because our prisons are “packed with inmates.”

Yet drugs are still everywhere. The war on drugs wrecks far more lives than drugs do!

Need more proof? Fox News runs stories about Mexican cocaine cartels and marijuana gangs that smuggle drugs into Arizona. Few stop to think that legalization would end the violence. There are no Corona beer smugglers. Beer sellers don�¹t smuggle. They simply ship their product. Drug laws cause drug crime.

The drug trade moved to Mexico partly because our government funded narcotics police in Colombia and sprayed the growing fields with herbicides. We announced it was a success! We cut way back on the Colombian drug trade.

But so what? All we did was squeeze the balloon. The drug trade moved across the border to Peru, and now it’s moved to Mexico. So the new president of Mexico is squeezing the balloon. Now the trade and the violence are spilling over the border into the United States.

That’s what I call progress. It’s the kind of progress we don’t need.

Economist Ludwig von Mises wrote: “Once the principle is admitted that it is the duty of the government to protect the individual against his own foolishness . . . why not prevent him from reading bad books and bad plays? The mischief done by bad ideologies is more pernicious . . . than that done by narcotic drugs.”

Right on, Ludwig!

http://www.newsmax.com/Stossel/warondrugs-Nixon-Taliban-Capone/2010/06/16/id/362153[/quote]

DAMN we agree :slight_smile:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]MilSpec105 wrote:
I think there are some details here that need to be clarified.

  1. Was he armed or going for a weapon, specifically a firearm? (any random movement does not warrant deadly force)

  2. Was the warrant, in fact, for him/his residence?

  3. Was this a “knock and announce so they can open the door” warrant or a “whisper hey cops are here then kick down the door” warrant and search.

I am by no means a fan of the current state of law enforcement and was just having a discussion with a close friend who is an officer. We both agreed that many cops are undereducated for their job, have a total us vs them attitude for just about all civilians, and think far to highly of themselves. [/quote]

According to the link provided, we don’t really know any of this shit. That’s my whole point. Why is the OP using this as an example of why we shouldn’t have a war on drugs when we don’t even know what the hell really happened in the first place?[/quote]

I have got to wonder , do you think it was great they killed an innocent man ? What don’t you understand about this that makes it a textbook mistake , all in the name of the WAR ON DRUGS[/quote]

You’re either delusional or incapable of basic reading comprehension. The original link doesn’t provide any evidence whatsoever to come to any sort of legitimate conclusion about who was at fault. The statement of the fiance is NOT evidence that the police acted mistakenly, just like the statement of the police is not evidence that they acted accordingly. So I don’t know how you arrive at the conclusion that this man is innocent. It very well may be a textbook mistake, but we don’t know that yet. Your conclusions are clearly based on prejudice.

As for the war on drugs, look I don’t support that war in its current form at all. But if this ALLEGED mistake is a result of the war on drugs then by the same logic, when a person is mistakenly shot while the police carry out any sort of high-alert warrant, it would be the enforcement of that law’s fault for the mistake. But we know that isn’t the case. Blaming it on the War on Drugs is a fucking copout that conveniently fits into your pre-conceived, naive worldview. It’s not the war’s fault when shit goes wrong; it’s the people who acted wrongly who are at fault, plain and simple. And in this particular case, we don’t who was at fault. What would you have to say about this whole situation if it turns out the dead guy really was a bigtime drug dealer, perhaps the suspect in the attempted murder of a rival drug dealer, perhaps he had a gun on him after all. We simply don’t know.

Regarding your claim that the war on drugs turns honorable people into criminals and that drug use is akin to jaywalking reveals the full extent of your naivety. Maybe the drug dealers you know are honorable, but that is a rare circumstance. I’ve known a lot of drug dealers and there’s rarely ever any honor amongst them. Many drug dealers are armed and dangerous, which is exactly why the police don’t fuck around when they serve a warrant on one. Many hard drug users turn to crime in order to supplement their habit. Many others become so addicted they whore themselves out (or in rarer cases, their children) for drugs, their children suffer as a result, many kids are taken from their parents, and still others become a major burden on society. In what ways do these facts about some drug users and some drug dealers equate them with jaywalkers? Wake up and smell the roses Pitbull. This ain’t the Summer of Love anymore; the drug culture can get pretty fucking nasty in some places.[/quote]

On this board , with regularity , there are posts about drug busts that go bad and the cops get a miniscule amount of drugs and do catastrophic damage to everybody including the tax payer . Those cops that killed the guy took a dangeropus marijuana smoker off the street , condemed the child that is probably born now to a life with no father .Now that is GOOD .

It is like these cops have ZERO common sense

Your speal about addicts , they should be treated as sick people and law enforcement should be the LAST resort. Check out Youngstown Ohio , the drug situation does not get much nastier. A little recon could have told them this kid lived 21 years and has never been in trouble , there is a pregnant lady living at the residence . This is not rocket science . You do not have to approach every bust like it is the Hells Angels Club House

If there are kids take the kids away from them , Do you really think you are doing those kids any good killing Dad ? Some drug cases are worse than Jaywalking and some are not…
[/quote]

Your first paragraph is meaningless since we don’t know whether or not the man was innocent. As for my comments about addicts, I agree that they should be treated as sick people, if they were to behave like sick people. But I don’t rob people for drugs, shoot people for drugs, and abandon my family when I get the flu. If they’re sick, but they commit crimes to further their drug use, they are sick CRIMINALS, and should be treated as such. Police treat drug busts like the highly dangerous that they are because they never know what lies on the other side of the door. Last year a cop in Oakland pulled over a motorist on a routine stop and the driver shot him and his partner with an m-16 then took off and holed up in an apartment where he shot two SWAT officers. The police don’t know if it’s a guy like him or Granny fucking Goose inside.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]MilSpec105 wrote:
I think there are some details here that need to be clarified.

  1. Was he armed or going for a weapon, specifically a firearm? (any random movement does not warrant deadly force)

  2. Was the warrant, in fact, for him/his residence?

  3. Was this a “knock and announce so they can open the door” warrant or a “whisper hey cops are here then kick down the door” warrant and search.

I am by no means a fan of the current state of law enforcement and was just having a discussion with a close friend who is an officer. We both agreed that many cops are undereducated for their job, have a total us vs them attitude for just about all civilians, and think far to highly of themselves. [/quote]

According to the link provided, we don’t really know any of this shit. That’s my whole point. Why is the OP using this as an example of why we shouldn’t have a war on drugs when we don’t even know what the hell really happened in the first place?[/quote]

I have got to wonder , do you think it was great they killed an innocent man ? What don’t you understand about this that makes it a textbook mistake , all in the name of the WAR ON DRUGS[/quote]

You’re either delusional or incapable of basic reading comprehension. The original link doesn’t provide any evidence whatsoever to come to any sort of legitimate conclusion about who was at fault. The statement of the fiance is NOT evidence that the police acted mistakenly, just like the statement of the police is not evidence that they acted accordingly. So I don’t know how you arrive at the conclusion that this man is innocent. It very well may be a textbook mistake, but we don’t know that yet. Your conclusions are clearly based on prejudice.

As for the war on drugs, look I don’t support that war in its current form at all. But if this ALLEGED mistake is a result of the war on drugs then by the same logic, when a person is mistakenly shot while the police carry out any sort of high-alert warrant, it would be the enforcement of that law’s fault for the mistake. But we know that isn’t the case. Blaming it on the War on Drugs is a fucking copout that conveniently fits into your pre-conceived, naive worldview. It’s not the war’s fault when shit goes wrong; it’s the people who acted wrongly who are at fault, plain and simple. And in this particular case, we don’t who was at fault. What would you have to say about this whole situation if it turns out the dead guy really was a bigtime drug dealer, perhaps the suspect in the attempted murder of a rival drug dealer, perhaps he had a gun on him after all. We simply don’t know.

Regarding your claim that the war on drugs turns honorable people into criminals and that drug use is akin to jaywalking reveals the full extent of your naivety. Maybe the drug dealers you know are honorable, but that is a rare circumstance. I’ve known a lot of drug dealers and there’s rarely ever any honor amongst them. Many drug dealers are armed and dangerous, which is exactly why the police don’t fuck around when they serve a warrant on one. Many hard drug users turn to crime in order to supplement their habit. Many others become so addicted they whore themselves out (or in rarer cases, their children) for drugs, their children suffer as a result, many kids are taken from their parents, and still others become a major burden on society. In what ways do these facts about some drug users and some drug dealers equate them with jaywalkers? Wake up and smell the roses Pitbull. This ain’t the Summer of Love anymore; the drug culture can get pretty fucking nasty in some places.[/quote]

On this board , with regularity , there are posts about drug busts that go bad and the cops get a miniscule amount of drugs and do catastrophic damage to everybody including the tax payer . Those cops that killed the guy took a dangeropus marijuana smoker off the street , condemed the child that is probably born now to a life with no father .Now that is GOOD .

It is like these cops have ZERO common sense

Your speal about addicts , they should be treated as sick people and law enforcement should be the LAST resort. Check out Youngstown Ohio , the drug situation does not get much nastier. A little recon could have told them this kid lived 21 years and has never been in trouble , there is a pregnant lady living at the residence . This is not rocket science . You do not have to approach every bust like it is the Hells Angels Club House

If there are kids take the kids away from them , Do you really think you are doing those kids any good killing Dad ? Some drug cases are worse than Jaywalking and some are not…
[/quote]

Last year a cop in Oakland pulled over a motorist on a routine stop and the driver shot him and his partner with an m-16 then took off and holed up in an apartment where he shot two SWAT officers. The police don’t know if it’s a guy like him or Granny fucking Goose inside.[/quote]

Which is why they should Look before they Leap!

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]MilSpec105 wrote:
I think there are some details here that need to be clarified.

  1. Was he armed or going for a weapon, specifically a firearm? (any random movement does not warrant deadly force)

  2. Was the warrant, in fact, for him/his residence?

  3. Was this a “knock and announce so they can open the door” warrant or a “whisper hey cops are here then kick down the door” warrant and search.

I am by no means a fan of the current state of law enforcement and was just having a discussion with a close friend who is an officer. We both agreed that many cops are undereducated for their job, have a total us vs them attitude for just about all civilians, and think far to highly of themselves. [/quote]

According to the link provided, we don’t really know any of this shit. That’s my whole point. Why is the OP using this as an example of why we shouldn’t have a war on drugs when we don’t even know what the hell really happened in the first place?[/quote]

I have got to wonder , do you think it was great they killed an innocent man ? What don’t you understand about this that makes it a textbook mistake , all in the name of the WAR ON DRUGS[/quote]

You’re either delusional or incapable of basic reading comprehension. The original link doesn’t provide any evidence whatsoever to come to any sort of legitimate conclusion about who was at fault. The statement of the fiance is NOT evidence that the police acted mistakenly, just like the statement of the police is not evidence that they acted accordingly. So I don’t know how you arrive at the conclusion that this man is innocent. It very well may be a textbook mistake, but we don’t know that yet. Your conclusions are clearly based on prejudice.

As for the war on drugs, look I don’t support that war in its current form at all. But if this ALLEGED mistake is a result of the war on drugs then by the same logic, when a person is mistakenly shot while the police carry out any sort of high-alert warrant, it would be the enforcement of that law’s fault for the mistake. But we know that isn’t the case. Blaming it on the War on Drugs is a fucking copout that conveniently fits into your pre-conceived, naive worldview. It’s not the war’s fault when shit goes wrong; it’s the people who acted wrongly who are at fault, plain and simple. And in this particular case, we don’t who was at fault. What would you have to say about this whole situation if it turns out the dead guy really was a bigtime drug dealer, perhaps the suspect in the attempted murder of a rival drug dealer, perhaps he had a gun on him after all. We simply don’t know.

Regarding your claim that the war on drugs turns honorable people into criminals and that drug use is akin to jaywalking reveals the full extent of your naivety. Maybe the drug dealers you know are honorable, but that is a rare circumstance. I’ve known a lot of drug dealers and there’s rarely ever any honor amongst them. Many drug dealers are armed and dangerous, which is exactly why the police don’t fuck around when they serve a warrant on one. Many hard drug users turn to crime in order to supplement their habit. Many others become so addicted they whore themselves out (or in rarer cases, their children) for drugs, their children suffer as a result, many kids are taken from their parents, and still others become a major burden on society. In what ways do these facts about some drug users and some drug dealers equate them with jaywalkers? Wake up and smell the roses Pitbull. This ain’t the Summer of Love anymore; the drug culture can get pretty fucking nasty in some places.[/quote]

On this board , with regularity , there are posts about drug busts that go bad and the cops get a miniscule amount of drugs and do catastrophic damage to everybody including the tax payer . Those cops that killed the guy took a dangeropus marijuana smoker off the street , condemed the child that is probably born now to a life with no father .Now that is GOOD .

It is like these cops have ZERO common sense

Your speal about addicts , they should be treated as sick people and law enforcement should be the LAST resort. Check out Youngstown Ohio , the drug situation does not get much nastier. A little recon could have told them this kid lived 21 years and has never been in trouble , there is a pregnant lady living at the residence . This is not rocket science . You do not have to approach every bust like it is the Hells Angels Club House

If there are kids take the kids away from them , Do you really think you are doing those kids any good killing Dad ? Some drug cases are worse than Jaywalking and some are not…
[/quote]

Your first paragraph is meaningless since we don’t know whether or not the man was innocent. As for my comments about addicts, I agree that they should be treated as sick people, if they were to behave like sick people. But I don’t rob people for drugs, shoot people for drugs, and abandon my family when I get the flu. If they’re sick, but they commit crimes to further their drug use, they are sick CRIMINALS, and should be treated as such. Police treat drug busts like the highly dangerous that they are because they never know what lies on the other side of the door. Last year a cop in Oakland pulled over a motorist on a routine stop and the driver shot him and his partner with an m-16 then took off and holed up in an apartment where he shot two SWAT officers. The police don’t know if it’s a guy like him or Granny fucking Goose inside.[/quote]

I disagree my first paragraph is my point. we will go two ways on it. First do we have to wait until he is aquited , will they even try a dead man ? Secound Some one that is breaking the law but is harming no one , should the cops kill him even if he poses no threat to himself or any one else ? Or should they even threaten him ? I can not wrap my head around your point .

The guy in the story was not being arrested for robbery nor shooting anyone.If so I would have no sypathy for the now victim

My point was they should research each bust before hand and approach the bust apropriatly. I am guessing they could have arrested the guy with out even pulling a weapon.

The last one of these threads , I posted a link to a girl in detroit killed in a drug bust gone bad. I did not hear a THING about the sensless tragedy on the news . But at the same time a cop was killed in one of the southern states , I did not hear one news broadcast that did not greive over the cop . I think there is a growing part of our society that is losing our sympathy for the cops , myself included