Hiring cops that are accountable only to the “state” and not directly to the people they serve is the problem.[/quote]
That’s an interesting statement. While I agree with the spirit of it, I’m not so sure it applies to this particular case.
Anyway, what would you propose to accomplish the goal of your post?[/quote]
I would say that in this case it applies because the officers in the article (unless I horribly misread it, if so, my apologies) were let off the hook. No punishment whatsoever.
In the ideal, police work would be taken care of by PSA’s (Private Security Agencies) that answer to the consumer and the free market. In reality, I would say find ways for citizens to more actively bring complaints about the police to the police so that justice can be served. The people should not be made to feel helpless when the police are wrong or abuse their power.
I say this not as an angry punk who just hates cops, but as someone who is frustrated with incompetence and outright abuse of power (that I have seen in my own personal life and with people I know). I have two good friends who are dedicated and intelligent policemen, and I have the utmost respect for them, but many of their brethren really, really frustrate me.
Hiring cops that are accountable only to the “state” and not directly to the people they serve is the problem.[/quote]
That’s an interesting statement. While I agree with the spirit of it, I’m not so sure it applies to this particular case.
Anyway, what would you propose to accomplish the goal of your post?[/quote]
I would say that in this case it applies because the officers in the article (unless I horribly misread it, if so, my apologies) were let off the hook. No punishment whatsoever.
In the ideal, police work would be taken care of by PSA’s (Private Security Agencies) that answer to the consumer and the free market. In reality, I would say find ways for citizens to more actively bring complaints about the police to the police so that justice can be served. The people should not be made to feel helpless when the police are wrong or abuse their power.
I say this not as an angry punk who just hates cops, but as someone who is frustrated with incompetence and outright abuse of power (that I have seen in my own personal life and with people I know). I have two good friends who are dedicated and intelligent policemen, and I have the utmost respect for them, but many of their brethren really, really frustrate me.[/quote]
I think the idea of outsourcing police duties to any type of private agency is very dangerous with a few exceptions(such as checking burglar alarms…something that private companies do in many states). One of the only legitimate functions of government in my opinion is maintaining general order and security. I have heard the “privatize police” mantra before but if you consider what corporate control would mean in homicide investigations, theft investigations and so forth, it becomes clear the potential for corruption in a “free market” police operation is just as bad as in a government one.
Also, there are a large number of avenues to pursue complaints against bad police. We don’t need more. That has already been tried with civilian review boards which have been pretty ineffective and have only served to undermine legitimate police authority(which of course was their intended function as they were the brainchild of subversives like members of the ACLU).
I admit there are problems for sure…in fact, I know that better than you guys. Like I said, I agree with the spirit of your statement…the police should be accountable to the people they serve, not to government thugs. How would you do that? For consideration:
-Shrink police responsibilities back to their original moral purpose…responding to and preventing serious criminal activity which the vast majority of all societies have always been in opposition to(murder, robbery, rape etc.) Essentially, stop your neighbor from harming you against your will. Get rid of most other laws that serve to only harass the public. This would probably include a serious discussion about legalizing most drugs. Eliminate gun laws. Eliminate most motor vehicle laws(the largest source of animosity against us - problem would be that governments look at us as revenue collection agents anymore).
-Localize law enforcement as much as possible. Return more power to the county sheriff in jurisdictions where that position has lost it. As an elected official, the sheriff answers directly to the people helping to ensure an area gets the type of law enforcement that it wants.
-Minimize federal law enforcement. Cut back or eliminate all federal law enforcement agencies with the exception of the FBI. Then, use the FBI solely for serious interstate or international criminal investigations.
-Make police selection and training standards very high. If a jurisdiction absolutely needs manpower for parking statutes or other ordinances enforced, use lesser trained civilians for the job. The people with guns and arrest powers should be highly trained professionals used very specifically.
-After that, it is society’s job to “man up” and beat most lawyers back into their holes so the police can then do their jobs without undue harassment. This also means that on rare occasions, we will have to accept some ugly things happening involving the police, not because they are brutal but because there are violent, out-of-control people in the world who must be dealt with for the rest of us to live in peace. We will also have to accept that life can also be very unfair and dangerous and no government, or its police agents, can make everything perfectly safe for us. If I had a dime for everytime some crybaby called the police for chickenshit because it annoyed them, I would be retired. Essentially, learn to mind your own business in most things…many minor police contacts that blow up into big trouble are initiated by people not doing this.
[quote]John S. wrote:
There are good Police out there, I have some in real life and on this forum. But the majority are trash.[/quote]
That is very harsh John. Majority are trash? I would say that 10-15% are responsible for 99% of the professional work that gets done, but it is that way in any profession. I’ll give you “inept” for sure but calling the rest trash is unfair.
[quote]John S. wrote:
There are good Police out there, I have some in real life and on this forum. But the majority are trash.[/quote]
I agree , I know some good cops , and FBI also . I think one area where the cops get cross ways with people are in marijuana . The cops approach anyone with pot like the are the largest best armed cartel on the planet . Zero common sense .
Hiring cops that are accountable only to the “state” and not directly to the people they serve is the problem.[/quote]
That’s an interesting statement. While I agree with the spirit of it, I’m not so sure it applies to this particular case.
Anyway, what would you propose to accomplish the goal of your post?[/quote]
I would say that in this case it applies because the officers in the article (unless I horribly misread it, if so, my apologies) were let off the hook. No punishment whatsoever.
In the ideal, police work would be taken care of by PSA’s (Private Security Agencies) that answer to the consumer and the free market. In reality, I would say find ways for citizens to more actively bring complaints about the police to the police so that justice can be served. The people should not be made to feel helpless when the police are wrong or abuse their power.
I say this not as an angry punk who just hates cops, but as someone who is frustrated with incompetence and outright abuse of power (that I have seen in my own personal life and with people I know). I have two good friends who are dedicated and intelligent policemen, and I have the utmost respect for them, but many of their brethren really, really frustrate me.[/quote]
I think the idea of outsourcing police duties to any type of private agency is very dangerous with a few exceptions(such as checking burglar alarms…something that private companies do in many states). One of the only legitimate functions of government in my opinion is maintaining general order and security. I have heard the “privatize police” mantra before but if you consider what corporate control would mean in homicide investigations, theft investigations and so forth, it becomes clear the potential for corruption in a “free market” police operation is just as bad as in a government one.
Also, there are a large number of avenues to pursue complaints against bad police. We don’t need more. That has already been tried with civilian review boards which have been pretty ineffective and have only served to undermine legitimate police authority(which of course was their intended function as they were the brainchild of subversives like members of the ACLU).
I admit there are problems for sure…in fact, I know that better than you guys. Like I said, I agree with the spirit of your statement…the police should be accountable to the people they serve, not to government thugs. How would you do that? For consideration:
-Shrink police responsibilities back to their original moral purpose…responding to and preventing serious criminal activity which the vast majority of all societies have always been in opposition to(murder, robbery, rape etc.) Essentially, stop your neighbor from harming you against your will. Get rid of most other laws that serve to only harass the public. This would probably include a serious discussion about legalizing most drugs. Eliminate gun laws. Eliminate most motor vehicle laws(the largest source of animosity against us - problem would be that governments look at us as revenue collection agents anymore).
-Localize law enforcement as much as possible. Return more power to the county sheriff in jurisdictions where that position has lost it. As an elected official, the sheriff answers directly to the people helping to ensure an area gets the type of law enforcement that it wants.
-Minimize federal law enforcement. Cut back or eliminate all federal law enforcement agencies with the exception of the FBI. Then, use the FBI solely for serious interstate or international criminal investigations.
-Make police selection and training standards very high. If a jurisdiction absolutely needs manpower for parking statutes or other ordinances enforced, use lesser trained civilians for the job. The people with guns and arrest powers should be highly trained professionals used very specifically.
-After that, it is society’s job to “man up” and beat most lawyers back into their holes so the police can then do their jobs without undue harassment. This also means that on rare occasions, we will have to accept some ugly things happening involving the police, not because they are brutal but because there are violent, out-of-control people in the world who must be dealt with for the rest of us to live in peace. We will also have to accept that life can also be very unfair and dangerous and no government, or its police agents, can make everything perfectly safe for us. If I had a dime for everytime some crybaby called the police for chickenshit because it annoyed them, I would be retired. Essentially, learn to mind your own business in most things…many minor police contacts that blow up into big trouble are initiated by people not doing this.
Hiring cops that are accountable only to the “state” and not directly to the people they serve is the problem.[/quote]
That’s an interesting statement. While I agree with the spirit of it, I’m not so sure it applies to this particular case.
Anyway, what would you propose to accomplish the goal of your post?[/quote]
I would say that in this case it applies because the officers in the article (unless I horribly misread it, if so, my apologies) were let off the hook. No punishment whatsoever.
In the ideal, police work would be taken care of by PSA’s (Private Security Agencies) that answer to the consumer and the free market. In reality, I would say find ways for citizens to more actively bring complaints about the police to the police so that justice can be served. The people should not be made to feel helpless when the police are wrong or abuse their power.
I say this not as an angry punk who just hates cops, but as someone who is frustrated with incompetence and outright abuse of power (that I have seen in my own personal life and with people I know). I have two good friends who are dedicated and intelligent policemen, and I have the utmost respect for them, but many of their brethren really, really frustrate me.[/quote]
I think the idea of outsourcing police duties to any type of private agency is very dangerous with a few exceptions(such as checking burglar alarms…something that private companies do in many states). One of the only legitimate functions of government in my opinion is maintaining general order and security. I have heard the “privatize police” mantra before but if you consider what corporate control would mean in homicide investigations, theft investigations and so forth, it becomes clear the potential for corruption in a “free market” police operation is just as bad as in a government one.
[/quote]
Where is your proof that the private agencies would be any more corrupt than the State Police.
Complaining against police is an exhaustive process. Beyond being reasonable.
Yes, you could do that on top of having a private agency as police that can be terminated if they do not meet regulations by a company that would come up with regulations sans-monopoly over force.
You ever heard of a man named Joe Arpaio?
Always a good option, I say get rid of the IRS, FBI, CIA, the different branches of the military.
You should see the amount of volunteers they have for traffic stops, &c around here, it is like every old person in Arizona wants to be a cop.
Why do we need the police or the State to make things safe for us? Why should we accept violence from the police?
Hiring cops that are accountable only to the “state” and not directly to the people they serve is the problem.[/quote]
That’s an interesting statement. While I agree with the spirit of it, I’m not so sure it applies to this particular case.
Anyway, what would you propose to accomplish the goal of your post?[/quote]
I would say that in this case it applies because the officers in the article (unless I horribly misread it, if so, my apologies) were let off the hook. No punishment whatsoever.
In the ideal, police work would be taken care of by PSA’s (Private Security Agencies) that answer to the consumer and the free market. In reality, I would say find ways for citizens to more actively bring complaints about the police to the police so that justice can be served. The people should not be made to feel helpless when the police are wrong or abuse their power.
I say this not as an angry punk who just hates cops, but as someone who is frustrated with incompetence and outright abuse of power (that I have seen in my own personal life and with people I know). I have two good friends who are dedicated and intelligent policemen, and I have the utmost respect for them, but many of their brethren really, really frustrate me.[/quote]
I think the idea of outsourcing police duties to any type of private agency is very dangerous with a few exceptions(such as checking burglar alarms…something that private companies do in many states). One of the only legitimate functions of government in my opinion is maintaining general order and security. I have heard the “privatize police” mantra before but if you consider what corporate control would mean in homicide investigations, theft investigations and so forth, it becomes clear the potential for corruption in a “free market” police operation is just as bad as in a government one.
[/quote]
Where is your proof that the private agencies would be any more corrupt than the State Police.
Complaining against police is an exhaustive process. Beyond being reasonable.
Yes, you could do that on top of having a private agency as police that can be terminated if they do not meet regulations by a company that would come up with regulations sans-monopoly over force.
You ever heard of a man named Joe Arpaio?
Always a good option, I say get rid of the IRS, FBI, CIA, the different branches of the military.
You should see the amount of volunteers they have for traffic stops, &c around here, it is like every old person in Arizona wants to be a cop.
Why do we need the police or the State to make things safe for us? Why should we accept violence from the police?[/quote]
I’m short on time here but I’ll do my best.
-Police work does not fit the free market model. Its one of the few things that dont. The drive toward “production” is a very dangerous thing in the police business. In fact, it is the root of a lot of our problems…you should hear police administrators comparing ticket production to assembly line models of production. You would change your mind quickly.
Do you believe in a completely privatized army too?
-Of course I have heard of Joe Arpaio. What is your point(I can guess but I’ll let you fill in the blanks)?
-Your last statement about “not accepting violence” from the police is fucking absurd. Beyond absurd. Violence is a sad part of humanity. Sometimes, on rarer occasions, it is necessary. You mean to tell me there are no cases where violence must be used to protect innocent life or maintain order?
Hiring cops that are accountable only to the “state” and not directly to the people they serve is the problem.[/quote]
That’s an interesting statement. While I agree with the spirit of it, I’m not so sure it applies to this particular case.
Anyway, what would you propose to accomplish the goal of your post?[/quote]
I would say that in this case it applies because the officers in the article (unless I horribly misread it, if so, my apologies) were let off the hook. No punishment whatsoever.
In the ideal, police work would be taken care of by PSA’s (Private Security Agencies) that answer to the consumer and the free market. In reality, I would say find ways for citizens to more actively bring complaints about the police to the police so that justice can be served. The people should not be made to feel helpless when the police are wrong or abuse their power.
I say this not as an angry punk who just hates cops, but as someone who is frustrated with incompetence and outright abuse of power (that I have seen in my own personal life and with people I know). I have two good friends who are dedicated and intelligent policemen, and I have the utmost respect for them, but many of their brethren really, really frustrate me.[/quote]
I think the idea of outsourcing police duties to any type of private agency is very dangerous with a few exceptions(such as checking burglar alarms…something that private companies do in many states). One of the only legitimate functions of government in my opinion is maintaining general order and security. I have heard the “privatize police” mantra before but if you consider what corporate control would mean in homicide investigations, theft investigations and so forth, it becomes clear the potential for corruption in a “free market” police operation is just as bad as in a government one.
[/quote]
Where is your proof that the private agencies would be any more corrupt than the State Police.
Complaining against police is an exhaustive process. Beyond being reasonable.
Yes, you could do that on top of having a private agency as police that can be terminated if they do not meet regulations by a company that would come up with regulations sans-monopoly over force.
You ever heard of a man named Joe Arpaio?
Always a good option, I say get rid of the IRS, FBI, CIA, the different branches of the military.
You should see the amount of volunteers they have for traffic stops, &c around here, it is like every old person in Arizona wants to be a cop.
Why do we need the police or the State to make things safe for us? Why should we accept violence from the police?[/quote]
I’m short on time here but I’ll do my best.
-Police work does not fit the free market model. Its one of the few things that dont. The drive toward “production” is a very dangerous thing in the police business. In fact, it is the root of a lot of our problems…you should hear police administrators comparing ticket production to assembly line models of production. You would change your mind quickly.
Do you believe in a completely privatized army too?
[/quote]
Actually, from the point of view of the insurance agencies, who would likely hire them, the less money the insurance agency has to pay out the more money they will have to pay out of the private agency.
The guy is good on his word, it is just his word is a little, um…screwed up. Horrible conditions for people in jail and prison, would rather bust prostitution rings than dead beat dads, stuff like that. Sometimes county sheriffs should not have so much power.
[quote]
-Your last statement about “not accepting violence” from the police is fucking absurd. Beyond absurd. Violence is a sad part of humanity. Sometimes, on rarer occasions, it is necessary. You mean to tell me there are no cases where violence must be used to protect innocent life or maintain order? [/quote]
No, self-defense sure, but I am talking about this violence that we are told to accept about innocent children being shot, dogs being killed, petty drug dealers being shot in the face with their family there watching them die.
Hiring cops that are accountable only to the “state” and not directly to the people they serve is the problem.[/quote]
That’s an interesting statement. While I agree with the spirit of it, I’m not so sure it applies to this particular case.
Anyway, what would you propose to accomplish the goal of your post?[/quote]
I would say that in this case it applies because the officers in the article (unless I horribly misread it, if so, my apologies) were let off the hook. No punishment whatsoever.
In the ideal, police work would be taken care of by PSA’s (Private Security Agencies) that answer to the consumer and the free market. In reality, I would say find ways for citizens to more actively bring complaints about the police to the police so that justice can be served. The people should not be made to feel helpless when the police are wrong or abuse their power.
I say this not as an angry punk who just hates cops, but as someone who is frustrated with incompetence and outright abuse of power (that I have seen in my own personal life and with people I know). I have two good friends who are dedicated and intelligent policemen, and I have the utmost respect for them, but many of their brethren really, really frustrate me.[/quote]
I think the idea of outsourcing police duties to any type of private agency is very dangerous with a few exceptions(such as checking burglar alarms…something that private companies do in many states). One of the only legitimate functions of government in my opinion is maintaining general order and security. I have heard the “privatize police” mantra before but if you consider what corporate control would mean in homicide investigations, theft investigations and so forth, it becomes clear the potential for corruption in a “free market” police operation is just as bad as in a government one.
[/quote]
Where is your proof that the private agencies would be any more corrupt than the State Police.
Complaining against police is an exhaustive process. Beyond being reasonable.
Yes, you could do that on top of having a private agency as police that can be terminated if they do not meet regulations by a company that would come up with regulations sans-monopoly over force.
You ever heard of a man named Joe Arpaio?
Always a good option, I say get rid of the IRS, FBI, CIA, the different branches of the military.
You should see the amount of volunteers they have for traffic stops, &c around here, it is like every old person in Arizona wants to be a cop.
Why do we need the police or the State to make things safe for us? Why should we accept violence from the police?[/quote]
I’m short on time here but I’ll do my best.
-Police work does not fit the free market model. Its one of the few things that dont. The drive toward “production” is a very dangerous thing in the police business. In fact, it is the root of a lot of our problems…you should hear police administrators comparing ticket production to assembly line models of production. You would change your mind quickly.
Do you believe in a completely privatized army too?
-Of course I have heard of Joe Arpaio. What is your point(I can guess but I’ll let you fill in the blanks)?
-Your last statement about “not accepting violence” from the police is fucking absurd. Beyond absurd. Violence is a sad part of humanity. Sometimes, on rarer occasions, it is necessary. You mean to tell me there are no cases where violence must be used to protect innocent life or maintain order? [/quote]
Yes there are times when nothing else will work other than violence , but there are WAY TOO MANY cases where violense is the first option by police.
[quote]John S. wrote:
There are good Police out there, I have some in real life and on this forum. But the majority are trash.[/quote]
That is very harsh John. Majority are trash? I would say that 10-15% are responsible for 99% of the professional work that gets done, but it is that way in any profession. I’ll give you “inept” for sure but calling the rest trash is unfair. [/quote]
Most cops are not needed, I live in a small town and we need at the most 5, there is over 20. Most spend their day busting teens with pot, and maybe the occasional beer. Then they will park right by the speed limit signs. They walk around with an inflated ego and what they really are as another person so elegantly put it, welfare recipients with guns.
Yeah where I am, most cops would be smarter then to do something like this, unless there was a history of issues or the dog and owner were disliked by the community.