Moral Poverty Cost Blacks in New Orleans

Gregus · October 3, 2005, 7:15am

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
“Blacks are obligated to help themselves and not depend on the government to care for them.”

The second to last sentence in the article. I understand why he is trying to make his point, and how he is doing it, but I will just say that he is wrong. The statement should read:

Everyone is obligated to help themselves and not depend on the government to care for them.

When you make a statement like he did, it devalues all the hard work and dedication which is shown by every black person who isn’t sitting around waiting for a handout. I realize this is the author using a poetic device, and an appeal to the reader’s (hopefully) developed sensibilities, but it’s still racism.

I’m wondering, maybe looking a little deeper here: What happens when “helping yourself”, and playing your best cards at the table involves being dependent on the government? What comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do we cut off the welfare with a tough love kind of mindset? Do we slowly and carefully change the way things are, going for a more “get a job and wean yourself off the gubbamint tittay” thing?

I will bet that those “slackers” we are pointing our accusing fingers at here are making more money by sitting on their asses than by working some shit job somewhere. Where was the motivation to get that education when they knew they could just slack off? There isn’t the sense of shame in being dependent anymore… not like it used to be. Is that what the author is calling the “moral poverty?” I don’t know.

The article title was very misleading. I was expecting a holier than thou attitude from the writer with a phrase like “Moral Poverty” being used. I would call this more “get off your asses, I’m ashamed of you” than “you all suck, you’re going to hell”. Maybe the good reverend should have titled this with “Motivational Poverty” instead?[/quote]

Cut the bullshit. You’re arguing stupid semantics. He should have used the word “everyone” blah blah blah. Screw that crap. He said it like it is and it’s too bad you’re to emotionally frail to see the truth of his words. You like living in your bubble? You like pondering silly “what if” strategies? People in powerty are in powerty because they want to be simple as that. Don;t come here and tell me some sob story of how powerty sucks and who the hell would want to live in it. Fact is, there’s plenty of people that choose powerty through their inaction. Anyone can get out of powerty with enough work, some are just too LAZY.

My family came to this county in 1986 starting life all over again from scratch. My own mother had to pull up her sleeves and start scrubbing other people’s toilets as an illegal at age 40, with tears of desparation on her face. My Dad who came here before her spend time working 16 hour days and sleeping in a free room about the width of a king size bed with a small mattress on the floor. You know what though? Through no excuses and a single minded attitude of hard work they made it to the American Dream in 10 short years. And it got better and better, now they drive luxury cars and live in a kickass house in one of the better arear in NJ. Nothing came easy to them, nothing. And i would like to point out that we’re white, and fresh from Europe. Nothing was handed to us.

It’s a simple lesson for all to learn. Make no excuses, shut up, pull up your sleeves and start to work toward your future. And one other thing, noone said it’s going to be easy. (my own powerfull words)

ZEB · October 3, 2005, 8:11am

The author hit the nail directly on the head! Anytime we rely on government, or any outside force to attend to our every need we end up with lower self esteem. Black, white it makes no difference.

This is one reason why LBJ was in fact the worst President of the 20th Century. The war on poverty created a reliance upon government that is unhealthy and quite damaging in many ways.

What the author is stating has been said before by Bill Cosby and other responsible black leaders. They are not “uncle Toms.” They simply care about their people and are very disgusted at what they are seeing.

Again, this relates to people of all colors. Reliance upon the government for everyday needs is not the way to succeed long term!

ATOMemphis · October 3, 2005, 8:19am

I think he’s right in what he has written. Memphis could be no different than New Orleans, and that is enough to make you wonder what might happen in the event of catastrophe. I think much of what he said is right on target and not racist, pointing out the trends of a community is not racist.

A comment like “blacks are less intelligent than _________” is racist and is obviously so. I find his comments labelled “racist” because they are unique because he is a black man offering criticism of the black community. NO NO! You can’t criticize the black community no matter what you are, That’s RACIST!!! I’M TELLING.

Why can’t a man who cares for his community stand up and point out its flaws in order to better it?

It is ridiculous and closed minded for a person to stop reading because a sentence made them think he is ‘close minded’. But then again, you must have already made up your mind when you heard Kanye West tell America that Bush hates black people. And, of course, West is a true patriot of human rights.

lothario1132 · October 3, 2005, 11:05pm

[quote]Gregus wrote:
Fact is, there’s plenty of people that choose powerty through their inaction. Anyone can get out of powerty with enough work, some are just too LAZY.[/quote]
I see you’ve missed my point. What a fucking surprise.

Before foaming at the mouth AGAIN and saying I’m full of shizzle, maybe you should actually read what I posted. Just a suggestion.

To repeat myself: these folks have no motivation to succeed in a way that you or I define it. Try living with hopelessness in your heart and as a way of life for just a little while – not even your whole life – and you too will start to wonder why you live in the richest country in the world, but nobody wants to help you.

[quote]My family came to this county in 1986 starting life all over again from scratch. My own mother had to pull up her sleeves and start scrubbing other people’s toilets as an illegal at age 40, with tears of desparation on her face. My Dad who came here before her spend time working 16 hour days and sleeping in a free room about the width of a king size bed with a small mattress on the floor. You know what though? Through no excuses and a single minded attitude of hard work they made it to the American Dream in 10 short years. And it got better and better, now they drive luxury cars and live in a kickass house in one of the better arear in NJ. Nothing came easy to them, nothing. And i would like to point out that we’re white, and fresh from Europe. Nothing was handed to us.

It’s a simple lesson for all to learn. Make no excuses, shut up, pull up your sleeves and start to work toward your future. And one other thing, noone said it’s going to be easy. (my own powerfull words)[/quote]

Congrats on getting out of a bad situation (I’m assuming). I’m very glad to hear that the American Dream is alive and kicking, and the story of your family overcoming the odds is quite inspiring. That’s the kind of stuff you read in Reader’s Digest or something.

Now if we can just repeat that for some other folks a couple of hundred thousand times more, then everything will be hunky-dory. There are many many people who are stating over from scratch after Katrina. I wonder how many of them are seeing it as an opportunity to rebuild, and how many see it as just another crushing setback in the tragedy of their lives?

Maybe THAT’S what the good reverend meant by “Moral Poverty”? Of course, I would call it “Morale Poverty”, but that’s just me mincing words and making excuses again, isn’t it?

Elkhntr1 · October 3, 2005, 11:28pm

I think what we fail to see sometimes, is that policies and practices that have been in place for the past two hundred years, have greatly contributed to the enormous disparities we see in race today in America.

We have a large segment of society that due to active racism for the time mentioned has left them without some of the social and adaptive skills that other groups possess.

If you have two children one raised to believe he is the best, that he can accomplish anything and is then provided with the tools do so more often then not he is going to rise far in life.

If the other child is neglected, beaten, told they are worthless, and provided with the minimal means to get by, you will more often then not have a disfunctional individual who is maladaptive and doesn’t go very far in life.

I am not one for handouts are a free ride, but to turn a blind eye and not try to implement any programs to elevate a people so that they have the vision and ability to pull themselves up by their boot straps is sinful… and I’m not even religious.

Many non blacks don’t want to accept that the treatment afforded the majority of the black population over the years has helped create this mess. They just want to say these people are lazy and worthless like they just plopped out of outer space onto onto the planet to drain resources.

I don’t know the solution, but it’s definitely all of our problem as human beings. What can be done to help or will we just let New Orleans type problems grow because they are no NO type disasters to pull back the blinders, so that we can see the ugliness underneath?

lothario1132 · October 3, 2005, 11:33pm

And to add one more thing about poverty in general:

Has anybody here ever been fat?

How easy was it to lose fifty pounds (or more) after being a big fat-ass?

You needed to be quite motivated, right?

Are we going to sit here and bitch about how fat people are annoyingly lazy? Or are we going to do something to help them and motivate them? Is there anything we can do, really, other than provide a good example? Doesn’t that motivation come from within?

It is the same thing with poverty and the ghetto. How many of you have a fat friend who is always complaining about how she can’t lose weight, and even though you hold her damn hand in the gym, set up a good but not too challenging program to start with, go over diet issues and offer endless support and encouragement… still she decides to eat ho-ho’s in front of the TV and gives up on her goals after two weeks?

It is the same thing with poverty and the ghetto. Was my fat friend just lazy? You guys don’t know how much I wanted her to succeed, but she just didn’t have the motivation inside to change. I couldn’t do it for her. So in my disgust, do I go and spit in her face now? Do I heckle her, and call her a quitter every time I see her? Would that help at all? Of course not. But I’m damn sure not going to help her stay fat. No candy for you on Valentine’s Day, bitch… you get flowers and that’s it.

vroom · October 4, 2005, 12:02am

Nice post Elk.

Too many people use an article like this to confirm their own racist beliefs instead of wanting to find a way to improve things.

Strangely, efforts to ensure that academic opportunites are provided to disadvantaged people have been referred to as reverse discrimination – as opposed to being seen as a way to help elevate portions of society with a history of being trodden on.

Maybe it causes too much cognitive dissonance to consider that early Americans are somewhat responsible for the situation that exists today by the actions they took to maximize their profits. We should now be taking appropriate steps to help improve the situation instead of pretending that personal responsibility is a solvent that can wash away recent history.

Just because it started before you yourself were born doesn’t mean it isn’t significant. Just because it isn’t as bad as it was, doesn’t mean that there is no problem remaining.

I’m not saying that personal responsibility isn’t important, but at the same time, it isn’t a cure all for the ills of society either.

lothario1132 · October 4, 2005, 1:40am

[quote]vroom wrote:
Nice post Elk.

Too many people use an article like this to confirm their own racist beliefs instead of wanting to find a way to improve things.[/quote]

I second both sentences above. It is mentally and morally lazy and hypocritical of us to just pass the buck and say “well, it’s THEIR problem, fuck 'em.”

BUT (big but)

What can we do to directly help? Nothing. And that’s the frustrating part, because it is like growing flowers… you can yell at and encourage that seed all you want, but the flower is the one who’s got to grow. All we can do is make sure there is water, sunlight and some decent soil. The seed has to grow on its own.

I’m just saying let’s give the damn seeds a chance. Maybe we haven’t done that. The social programs we have in place aren’t getting the job done, and it’s time to take our hands off of our ears and open our eyes as to why.

In every tragedy there is a lesson. 9/11 taught us that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. What is Katrina going to teach us?

Are we even listening?

ChrisPowers · October 4, 2005, 1:55am

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
I think what we fail to see sometimes, is that policies and practices that have been in place for the past two hundred years, have greatly contributed to the enormous disparities we see in race today in America.

We have a large segment of society that due to active racism for the time mentioned has left them without some of the social and adaptive skills that other groups possess. [/quote]

The word for the above is “excuse”. I find it baffling that on this site, where excuses for being weak/fat/skinny are instantly called out and attacked, they are so quickly provided as soon as the topic becomes race and not bodybuildling genetics.

In my opinion, as soon as a person is made to rely on some exterior source for “help”, that person has started on the road to forgetting how to help himself. News flash: life is unfair to everyone. The best you can do is provide the opportunity.

I don’t think “many” non-blacks want to say that blacks are lazy and worthless, as evidenced by the outpouring of donations after the hurricane as those dumb ign’ant redneck hicks from the heartland that we enlightened folks from the coasts like to use as the butt of jokes clamored to open up their homes to those lazy and worthless blacks who they’re notorious for despising and harboring secret desires to lynch.

lothario1132 · October 4, 2005, 3:56am

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
The word for the above is “excuse”. I find it baffling that on this site, where excuses for being weak/fat/skinny are instantly called out and attacked, they are so quickly provided as soon as the topic becomes race and not bodybuildling genetics.[/quote]

Whoa horsey! Where is the “excuse”? The ghetto sucks. Nobody is saying any different. Elk makes a good point in saying that all men are not created equal. The black community has had to deal with a lot of shit not of their own making which you and I never had to worry about. That’s not an excuse, that’s the truth.

I mean, if we really are trying to cut the crap here. You can’t look me in the eye and say “loth, the average white child has the same number and quality of opportunities as the average black child.” --Not without my BS detector making that beeping noise.

Have you ever heard that song “The Trees” by Rush? Google the lyrics.

Gregus · October 4, 2005, 6:07am

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:
The word for the above is “excuse”. I find it baffling that on this site, where excuses for being weak/fat/skinny are instantly called out and attacked, they are so quickly provided as soon as the topic becomes race and not bodybuildling genetics.

Whoa horsey! Where is the “excuse”? The ghetto sucks. Nobody is saying any different. Elk makes a good point in saying that all men are not created equal. The black community has had to deal with a lot of shit not of their own making which you and I never had to worry about. That’s not an excuse, that’s the truth.

I mean, if we really are trying to cut the crap here. You can’t look me in the eye and say “loth, the average white child has the same number and quality of opportunities as the average black child.” --Not without my BS detector making that beeping noise.

Have you ever heard that song “The Trees” by Rush? Google the lyrics.[/quote]

Most of what the black community has had to deal with is themselves. I lived in one and went to school in a 80% black high school. As a European white boy i saw that Blacks are their own worst enemies, it’s that simple. It’s like watching the black people conspire together to keep each other down. I can’t tell you how many times one of the black guys would do something like his homework or speak up in class only to have the WHOLE class of black students laugh like they’re in audience of the Def Comedy Jam. Every bro that tried to be smarter was met with very vocal put downs from his buds. I can’t even begin to tell you how much of a porblem this is. You would have to live in the ghetto yourself for a while to get the full experience.

Your fat friend example you used is a good one. She is LAZY pure and simple. Too lazy to want to loose weight in the first place. She’s happy being lazy and likes the attention her bitching gives her and allows her to happily wallow in her fat laziness. LAZY!!!

Just about every immigrant that came here, came from an opressive regime. You think it’s easy for Eastern Europeans?

You porpably don’t think that we came here from communist regimes that would arrest people at night and take them away for weeks for speaking up.

You don’t realise that fathers would be taken for voicing criticism of the
regime.

You don’t realise that mases of people would be shipped to slave labor camps.

You don’t realise teachers would be eecuted for being too intelligent.

You don’t realise that something like a Rodney King Beating happened every night in every city.

And you also don’t realise that we were made to live in a system that allowed you to own nothing. Everything was government owned. We had no opportunity to even make more money then what was rationed for you particular “job”

Please, i have a ton of excuses to use if i want to. I won’t even get on a tangent of talking about the atrocities of having millions of my people be forced to build then burn inside the walls of a concentration camp so as to make my culture extinct… And i’m not Jewish even.

Yet we’ve made no excuses, never used our hardships as excuses. We kept it inside of us and worked through the shame of scrubbing someone elses toilets and we made it. You just have to want to suceeed, you have to be motivated and not lazy. Pure and simple. Don’t confuse the issue with pshycho blabber of this and that, it’s all too much talking. If a person wants to suceed thay have to work and work hard for a long time.

Anyone can look at my mother on the tennis court and can think this i a wealthy lady. What a nice life of leisure she has. How little do they know, how little do they know indeed…It was knuckles to the bone work.

People stop making excuses for lazy peole. It just keeps them lazy.

Gregus · October 4, 2005, 6:10am

[quote]vroom wrote:
Nice post Elk.

Too many people use an article like this to confirm their own racist beliefs instead of wanting to find a way to improve things.

Strangely, efforts to ensure that academic opportunites are provided to disadvantaged people have been referred to as reverse discrimination – as opposed to being seen as a way to help elevate portions of society with a history of being trodden on.

Maybe it causes too much cognitive dissonance to consider that early Americans are somewhat responsible for the situation that exists today by the actions they took to maximize their profits. We should now be taking appropriate steps to help improve the situation instead of pretending that personal responsibility is a solvent that can wash away recent history.

Just because it started before you yourself were born doesn’t mean it isn’t significant. Just because it isn’t as bad as it was, doesn’t mean that there is no problem remaining.

I’m not saying that personal responsibility isn’t important, but at the same time, it isn’t a cure all for the ills of society either.[/quote]

Racist would be me saying they’re lazy because they’re black. Because they’re black there’s a genetic defect that causes racism. Do you get that? I can dumb it down more.

This is not racism, this is calling out some lazy asses on being lazy. This is kicking their ass to work pure and simple.

lothario1132 · October 4, 2005, 6:26am

[quote]Gregus wrote:
This is not racism, this is calling out some lazy asses on being lazy. This is kicking their ass to work pure and simple.
[/quote]
And I admire your enthusiasm. Thing is, you’re not going to solve poverty by yelling out the window:

“Get a fuckin’ jerrrb, ya lazy n-words!!”

It’s a little more involved than that… sorry.

I hope you don’t still think I’m making excuses here. This is reality.

lothario1132 · October 4, 2005, 6:40am

[quote]Gregus wrote:
Your fat friend example you used is a good one. She is LAZY pure and simple. Too lazy to want to loose weight in the first place. She’s happy being lazy and likes the attention her bitching gives her and allows her to happily wallow in her fat laziness. LAZY!!! [/quote]

And I wanted to address this one, too.

No she is not happy being fat. She feels powerless to do much about it, and lacks the drive and determination to change her life right now. She is unable to say “This is it!!! I’VE HAD IT!!” to herself. Maybe she never will. You’re right about the excuses, though. She has not made diet and exercise a priority in her life, as she is too busy (like we haven’t heard that a million times around here) being a nurse, taking care of stuff at home, blah blah blah, it’s a wonder she gets any sleep at all.

This is different from being lazy. Lazy is best described by my buddy Mark who makes the most of his time on earth by smoking copious amounts of crappy weed on the couch and falling asleep to my Family Guy DVD’s every night while I’m at work. He does not even know how to go to the grocery store except to buy beer, as he relies on the Taco Bell down the street for his daily sustenance. He doesn’t care about anything except his own short-term gratification and scoring with drunk, fat, goth chicks.

Gregus · October 4, 2005, 8:00am

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Your fat friend example you used is a good one. She is LAZY pure and simple. Too lazy to want to loose weight in the first place. She’s happy being lazy and likes the attention her bitching gives her and allows her to happily wallow in her fat laziness. LAZY!!!

And I wanted to address this one, too.

No she is not happy being fat. She feels powerless to do much about it, and lacks the drive and determination to change her life right now. She is unable to say “This is it!!! I’VE HAD IT!!” to herself. Maybe she never will. You’re right about the excuses, though. She has not made diet and exercise a priority in her life, as she is too busy (like we haven’t heard that a million times around here) being a nurse, taking care of stuff at home, blah blah blah, it’s a wonder she gets any sleep at all.

This is different from being lazy. Lazy is best described by my buddy Mark who makes the most of his time on earth by smoking copious amounts of crappy weed on the couch and falling asleep to my Family Guy DVD’s every night while I’m at work. He does not even know how to go to the grocery store except to buy beer, as he relies on the Taco Bell down the street for his daily sustenance. He doesn’t care about anything except his own short-term gratification and scoring with drunk, fat, goth chicks.[/quote]

Well i think both are the same. They are both lazy asses in the end with no motivation and drive. Pure and simple in my mind. In time you will see my point, i hope.

Gregus · October 4, 2005, 8:10am

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Gregus wrote:
This is not racism, this is calling out some lazy asses on being lazy. This is kicking their ass to work pure and simple.

And I admire your enthusiasm. Thing is, you’re not going to solve poverty by yelling out the window:

“Get a fuckin’ jerrrb, ya lazy n-words!!”

It’s a little more involved than that… sorry.

I hope you don’t still think I’m making excuses here. This is reality.

[/quote]

Dude, i take every human being seriousley and i don’t like to call anyone by racist slurs. I have been called many many racist slurs myself since in the USA. I have been spit on by groups of kids in high school and even tried to be put in a dumpster.I walked onto school busses where every kind in the back would chant a racist slur in a choir over and over again then procedd to laugh. I know racism first hand like most will never experience. I see every person as an individual until they prove themselves otherwise. I don’t like to make anyone feel the way it made me feel to experience it.

I consider myself a philosopher of life and i like to observe. Having experienced racism on my own back i know what it is to be really racist and not some wrongly worded politically correct bs being passed as a racism cry.

Real racism is about believing in your heart of hearts that a group of people is inferior to you because of the very essence of whom they are. Something they can never do anything about.

btm62 · October 4, 2005, 9:49am

So where is this man writing the article wrong? Its the sad truth. What has racism got to do with it? Are we forbidden to say anything negative about someone because they are black? Playing the race card every time is wearing quite thin and is a joke in most cases. It does nothing but foster further resentment.

My opinion. Flame away.

vroom · October 4, 2005, 10:09am

Loth, sounds reasonable.

However, in the case of seeds, you don’t just have to stick them in the ground and hope they grow.

You can remove nearby weeds. You can make sure they are in good soil. You can add fertilizer. You can make sure they get enough water.

Sure, support programs often have the unfortunate effect of creating a dependency, so lets find a way to tend the garden without creating dependency or inappropriate disincentives.

reddog6376 · October 4, 2005, 10:29am

[quote]SWR-1222D wrote:
This is one of the most racist statements I’ve read in a loooong time.

“If you’re black and a hurricane is about to destroy your city, then you’ll probably wait for the government to save you.”

I stopped reading shortly after that.[/quote]

You’re attitude is what’s wrong with “race relations” Instead of labelling him a racist, why don’t you point out how he is wrong? I think his opinion is 100% correct. I also think that if a similar situation would have happened in many all white welfare dependant areas of the country, the results would have been the same. The issue isn’t the color of their skin, it’s their dependants on hand-outs. IMO, “black” culture does have a number of problems. Look at some of the lyrics of rappers that are idolized in the inner city. How can a culture (race aside) succeed when ideals such as rape, murder, drug abuse, and violent crime are held in high regard?

ALDurr · October 4, 2005, 10:41am

[quote]Gregus wrote: