MODOK How Do You Train?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]thoughts1053 wrote:
Modok,

I believe you have said that training a muscle 3x a week has given you the best results in a short period of time. When you were training like this, how did you split up the muscles. Or were you just following BBB for that time period?[/quote]

Well, the original BBB 2 way split ( chest, back, bis, calves and shoulders, tris, legs, abs) is a great split. Initially it looks like you are pairing to many large muscle groups together, but then you ask " what split would be more equitable?" and its hard to come up with anything. You are really just trying to get a 50/50 split, so in the best case scenario if you are 200 lbs you are trashing 100 lbs of your body every day. It seems daunting, but the limited volume helps it out. I’ve also had good success with legs, bis, tris, shoulders and Chest, back and abs. The one thing that I do try to stick with these days is training antagonistic bodyparts in the same workout. Whether its just the pump I get or being more efficient with my time, I really enjoy it. It also helps with joint integrity IMO, which I have had issues with in the past.[/quote]

Modok, I’ve been reading into one of the old BBB threads (the “OTS BBB Program” thread featuring discussions between C_C and you). When you started with BBB on 4 days a week what days in the week did you train (1,2,3,4 or 1,2,4,5,7?). How did you slot or determine a rest day?

You mentioned with regards to diet that you’re not carb tolerant, how did you know this? Bio signature or other means?

Thanks.[/quote]

On a 4 day/week plan, I’ve always floated the days. This is the real attraction to the plan for me and a big plus for busy folks all around. I always try to train on sunday afternoon, and ideally on monday night. But if I get busy or am out of town on business, I can do tuesday. Then I usually always have wednesday off, train thursday, off friday and train saturday morning. I know that I’m training sat-monday, but thats how I have to do it on a 4 day…I’m usually too busy to get more than two session in through the work week.

As far as carb intolerance goes, I could just tell by the way my body looked- soft, lots of central adiposity, feeling like crap after even moderate carb meals. The Surge/WM drink during training was a big clue too…
[/quote]

Ok thank you very much.

For BBB I wanted to start with 4 days first, see how I handle, finish a complete cycle (all ramps) then evaluate if I’m up to the task of 6 days. For the 4 workouts/week I plan to train two days then one day off, again I’ll need evaluate how I feel and how hard the program hits me. My work schedule ramps suddenly due to travel and 6 days will take a bit of shuffling but I believe it’s doable.

There is no cardio mentioned specifically in the BBB program (to my knowledge), did you ever slot that in either then or now?

For adiposity (what I understand is fat tissue) I was carry more around the stomach and torso but that went down after switching to low carbs/high pro/fat. Now the problem areas are at the chest. Bio signature has a subscapular measurement connected to carb-tolerance/insulin (it wasn’t explained in detail when I did it but basically I understood it to mean I didn’t handle carbs too well either).

22

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]thoughts1053 wrote:
Modok,

I believe you have said that training a muscle 3x a week has given you the best results in a short period of time. When you were training like this, how did you split up the muscles. Or were you just following BBB for that time period?[/quote]

Well, the original BBB 2 way split ( chest, back, bis, calves and shoulders, tris, legs, abs) is a great split. Initially it looks like you are pairing to many large muscle groups together, but then you ask " what split would be more equitable?" and its hard to come up with anything. You are really just trying to get a 50/50 split, so in the best case scenario if you are 200 lbs you are trashing 100 lbs of your body every day. It seems daunting, but the limited volume helps it out. I’ve also had good success with legs, bis, tris, shoulders and Chest, back and abs. The one thing that I do try to stick with these days is training antagonistic bodyparts in the same workout. Whether its just the pump I get or being more efficient with my time, I really enjoy it. It also helps with joint integrity IMO, which I have had issues with in the past.[/quote]

Modok, I’ve been reading into one of the old BBB threads (the “OTS BBB Program” thread featuring discussions between C_C and you). When you started with BBB on 4 days a week what days in the week did you train (1,2,3,4 or 1,2,4,5,7?). How did you slot or determine a rest day?

You mentioned with regards to diet that you’re not carb tolerant, how did you know this? Bio signature or other means?

Thanks.[/quote]

On a 4 day/week plan, I’ve always floated the days. This is the real attraction to the plan for me and a big plus for busy folks all around. I always try to train on sunday afternoon, and ideally on monday night. But if I get busy or am out of town on business, I can do tuesday. Then I usually always have wednesday off, train thursday, off friday and train saturday morning. I know that I’m training sat-monday, but thats how I have to do it on a 4 day…I’m usually too busy to get more than two session in through the work week.

As far as carb intolerance goes, I could just tell by the way my body looked- soft, lots of central adiposity, feeling like crap after even moderate carb meals. The Surge/WM drink during training was a big clue too…
[/quote]

Ok thank you very much.

For BBB I wanted to start with 4 days first, see how I handle, finish a complete cycle (all ramps) then evaluate if I’m up to the task of 6 days. For the 4 workouts/week I plan to train two days then one day off, again I’ll need evaluate how I feel and how hard the program hits me. My work schedule ramps suddenly due to travel and 6 days will take a bit of shuffling but I believe it’s doable.

There is no cardio mentioned specifically in the BBB program (to my knowledge), did you ever slot that in either then or now?

For adiposity (what I understand is fat tissue) I was carry more around the stomach and torso but that went down after switching to low carbs/high pro/fat. Now the problem areas are at the chest. Bio signature has a subscapular measurement connected to carb-tolerance/insulin (it wasn’t explained in detail when I did it but basically I understood it to mean I didn’t handle carbs too well either).[/quote]

Good luck on the BBB.

Oh yes, I do cardio daily. Low intensity, fasting cardio first thing in the AM. It varies from 20 minutes on up depending on the goal, but I always do it.

The biosig stuff is interesting, I’ve just never had the resources or the drive to get it done.
[/quote]

Thank you, well it’s your confidence and past results in the BBB that’s giving me the confidence to try, push forward and complete it. In any event it would a solid platform to perform other more advanced programs later in the year or next year.

This is a quote from you from the aforementioned BBB thread - “Hams are the one muscle group not directly adressed in the protocol, and one you have to get creative with. I added them onto quads in a modified compound set…tuesday was leg curls, thurs floor deads, saturday was stiff legs.”.

So if the program on Day 2 calls for “(3) Thighs” you might do Set 1 Squats-Rest-Set 1 Leg Curls-Rest-Set 2 Squats-Rest-Set 2 Leg Curls etc? Would it be a good idea to introduce this type of advanced technique in early, as early as week 1 ramp 1? Are other similar modified compound sets required anywhere else that you’d recommend?

Thank you very much. Noted on the cardio.

23

[quote]MODOK wrote:

As far as carb intolerance goes, I could just tell by the way my body looked- soft, lots of central adiposity, feeling like crap after even moderate carb meals. The Surge/WM drink during training was a big clue too…
[/quote]

Have you seen people who are naturally fat and not necessarily “carb sensitive”? I put on fat ridiculously easily and used to be fat, but I don’t notice much if any difference when I eat carbs. I’ve eaten about 800g of carbs today for a high carb day and feel about the same as any other day. I’m a little tired but I usually am around now and often take naps mid-day. I’ve just never noticed much of a difference :\

24

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]thoughts1053 wrote:
Modok,

I believe you have said that training a muscle 3x a week has given you the best results in a short period of time. When you were training like this, how did you split up the muscles. Or were you just following BBB for that time period?[/quote]

Well, the original BBB 2 way split ( chest, back, bis, calves and shoulders, tris, legs, abs) is a great split. Initially it looks like you are pairing to many large muscle groups together, but then you ask " what split would be more equitable?" and its hard to come up with anything. You are really just trying to get a 50/50 split, so in the best case scenario if you are 200 lbs you are trashing 100 lbs of your body every day. It seems daunting, but the limited volume helps it out. I’ve also had good success with legs, bis, tris, shoulders and Chest, back and abs. The one thing that I do try to stick with these days is training antagonistic bodyparts in the same workout. Whether its just the pump I get or being more efficient with my time, I really enjoy it. It also helps with joint integrity IMO, which I have had issues with in the past.[/quote]

Modok, I’ve been reading into one of the old BBB threads (the “OTS BBB Program” thread featuring discussions between C_C and you). When you started with BBB on 4 days a week what days in the week did you train (1,2,3,4 or 1,2,4,5,7?). How did you slot or determine a rest day?

You mentioned with regards to diet that you’re not carb tolerant, how did you know this? Bio signature or other means?

Thanks.[/quote]

On a 4 day/week plan, I’ve always floated the days. This is the real attraction to the plan for me and a big plus for busy folks all around. I always try to train on sunday afternoon, and ideally on monday night. But if I get busy or am out of town on business, I can do tuesday. Then I usually always have wednesday off, train thursday, off friday and train saturday morning. I know that I’m training sat-monday, but thats how I have to do it on a 4 day…I’m usually too busy to get more than two session in through the work week.

As far as carb intolerance goes, I could just tell by the way my body looked- soft, lots of central adiposity, feeling like crap after even moderate carb meals. The Surge/WM drink during training was a big clue too…
[/quote]

Ok thank you very much.

For BBB I wanted to start with 4 days first, see how I handle, finish a complete cycle (all ramps) then evaluate if I’m up to the task of 6 days. For the 4 workouts/week I plan to train two days then one day off, again I’ll need evaluate how I feel and how hard the program hits me. My work schedule ramps suddenly due to travel and 6 days will take a bit of shuffling but I believe it’s doable.

There is no cardio mentioned specifically in the BBB program (to my knowledge), did you ever slot that in either then or now?

For adiposity (what I understand is fat tissue) I was carry more around the stomach and torso but that went down after switching to low carbs/high pro/fat. Now the problem areas are at the chest. Bio signature has a subscapular measurement connected to carb-tolerance/insulin (it wasn’t explained in detail when I did it but basically I understood it to mean I didn’t handle carbs too well either).[/quote]

Good luck on the BBB.

Oh yes, I do cardio daily. Low intensity, fasting cardio first thing in the AM. It varies from 20 minutes on up depending on the goal, but I always do it.

The biosig stuff is interesting, I’ve just never had the resources or the drive to get it done.
[/quote]

Thank you, well it’s your confidence and past results in the BBB that’s giving me the confidence to try, push forward and complete it. In any event it would a solid platform to perform other more advanced programs later in the year or next year.

This is a quote from you from the aforementioned BBB thread - “Hams are the one muscle group not directly adressed in the protocol, and one you have to get creative with. I added them onto quads in a modified compound set…tuesday was leg curls, thurs floor deads, saturday was stiff legs.”.

So if the program on Day 2 calls for “(3) Thighs” you might do Set 1 Squats-Rest-Set 1 Leg Curls-Rest-Set 2 Squats-Rest-Set 2 Leg Curls etc? Would it be a good idea to introduce this type of advanced technique in early, as early as week 1 ramp 1? Are other similar modified compound sets required anywhere else that you’d recommend?

Thank you very much. Noted on the cardio.[/quote]

Well, modified compound sets can be used throughout the BBB program. They are discussed in the book as one way of structuring your rest periods to increase the training density. The Squat/leg curl was exactly one of the compound sets I used. The other was Leg press/stiff leg deadlift. The third was deadlift/sissy squat or leg extension. Just try to pair one very high NMA exercise with a lower one. I also did the compound sets on chest/back.
[/quote]

Thanks a lot Modok, I’ll look into doing this for Hamstring exercises from now on. When you mentioned about doing the same for Chest and Back, you’d perform a 6 or 7 NMA for Chest and do a modified compound set with say a level 2 or 3 NMA for Back? If so, I’ll look into that.

One interesting point is the distinction between Supersets and modified compound sets. I had always thought in supersets you perform set A, rested then did set B but the BBB book seems to indicate that’s a modified compound set and a superset is set A and set B with no rest. Anyway it’s perhaps just a misinterpretation on my part.

25

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]destroyedquads wrote:
Is your screen name based on the Marvel supervillain of the same name?[/quote]

Yes. Gigante PenisMan was already taken.[/quote]

sorry bro

26

LOL yesss

27

[quote]Gigante PenisMan wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]destroyedquads wrote:
Is your screen name based on the Marvel supervillain of the same name?[/quote]

Yes. Gigante PenisMan was already taken.[/quote]

sorry bro[/quote]

LMAO

28

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]Gigante PenisMan wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]destroyedquads wrote:
Is your screen name based on the Marvel supervillain of the same name?[/quote]

Yes. Gigante PenisMan was already taken.[/quote]

sorry bro[/quote]

LOL![/quote]

That would be funny because my name is of blackbolt whos arch enemies with modok:D

29

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
ah i’ve read through all your posts, very inspiring and intelligent
could you talk about your diet a bit? not just current but what you’ve been doing in the past[/quote]

Well, I am a natural fat boy…slow metabolism, huge gut as a 12 year old, carb intolerant, etc. so I have been keenly interested in nutrition over the years, not only in dieting for shows, but simply trying to get a date to the 8th grade prom. I bought The Anabolic Diet as soon as it came out (1994?) and was completely captivated by cyclic ketogenic diets. I used it to great success for the next 6 years, while everyone else in the general public was laughing at me ( go figure).
[/quote]

do you at all ever feel very flat and weak on the AD? obviously its working for you, but every time i go on it i look reallyyyy flat and lose strength in the gym, but i lose fat fast. its mindfuckery at its finest lol. any tips?

30

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]wannabebig25 wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
ah i’ve read through all your posts, very inspiring and intelligent
could you talk about your diet a bit? not just current but what you’ve been doing in the past[/quote]

Well, I am a natural fat boy…slow metabolism, huge gut as a 12 year old, carb intolerant, etc. so I have been keenly interested in nutrition over the years, not only in dieting for shows, but simply trying to get a date to the 8th grade prom. I bought The Anabolic Diet as soon as it came out (1994?) and was completely captivated by cyclic ketogenic diets. I used it to great success for the next 6 years, while everyone else in the general public was laughing at me ( go figure).
[/quote]

do you at all ever feel very flat and weak on the AD? obviously its working for you, but every time i go on it i look reallyyyy flat and lose strength in the gym, but i lose fat fast. its mindfuckery at its finest lol. any tips?[/quote]

It takes a bit of a mental adjustment. Yes, you do feel pretty flat on thursday/friday. But you feel like mother fuckin’ King Kong on Monday and Tuesday. There are two ways of adressing the flatness. 1. Midweek carb spike- (Its in the original AD book). 2. Adjust your training to where you aren’t worried about your strength at the end of the week ( do a day or two of density training, tri-sets, or something), and do all your heavy “PR” type lifting on sunday-tuesday. Thats how I did it.[/quote]

i never thought about trying all my PR stuff at the beginning of the week, awesome idea. midweek carb spike sounds good too. thanks modok.

31

Cool new avatar; Conan the barbarian as inspiration?

Anyways during this spring break I am going to see how hitting body parts twice a week feels compared to my usual once a week.

32

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Anyways during this spring break I am going to see how hitting body parts twice a week feels compared to my usual once a week.[/quote]

Not speaking for Modok, but good luck. Just don’t compromise the quality of your workouts (volume, intensity) for fear you won’t recover in time for the next session on that bodypart. Just use your recovery as an indicator of what else to hit in your lifestyle (nutrition, rest etc) to get things right.

33

[quote]MODOK wrote:

chest/arms
legs, abs, traps
back, delts, calves

That way I have an exhausting bodypart on each day ( chest, quads/hams, back) and smaller bodyparts I want to target with specialization on each day ( biceps, delts, traps) "
[/quote]

how many exercises would you be doing per muscle on a split like this? im on a push/pull split right now and its actually hella hard, and im not giving enough attention to muscles like shoulders, biceps and hamstrings. i think im gonna swtich to this split you mentioned. awesome stuff as usual modok.

also, do YOU do deadlifts on back day or leg day?

34

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]wannabebig25 wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

chest/arms
legs, abs, traps
back, delts, calves

That way I have an exhausting bodypart on each day ( chest, quads/hams, back) and smaller bodyparts I want to target with specialization on each day ( biceps, delts, traps) "
[/quote]

how many exercises would you be doing per muscle on a split like this? im on a push/pull split right now and its actually hella hard, and im not giving enough attention to muscles like shoulders, biceps and hamstrings. i think im gonna swtich to this split you mentioned. awesome stuff as usual modok.

also, do YOU do deadlifts on back day or leg day?[/quote]

I keep the volume per WEEK per bodypart at 12-15 sets. Training twice weekly, thats 6-7 sets/bodypart. Usually thats two exercises of 3-4 sets each. Of course, these are big, “money” exercises taken to or nearly to failure…so it isn’t a cake walk.

If you feel some of your bodparts are getting the short end of the stick effort-wise, invert the order on the second training session of the week. So instead of chest/back do back/chest. Its silly to even mention, but it makes a huge difference if you forget to remember to do it.

I’ve always deadlifted on the second leg day of the week. I pair it (ham dominant) with a quad dominant ( leg press/hack). On leg day #1, its a squat variation with another hip dominant ( stiff legs/good mornings). I can certainly see the rationale for putting them on back day, I just prefer it this way personally.
[/quote]

the volume per week is what i really need to experiment with for my physiology. the once per week 12-15 sets per bodypart doesnt work well with me, as after 3 or 4 days i feel recovered and i feel like im taking 2 steps forward, 1 step back waiting the full 7 days. twice per week ive only been doing maybe 8 sets to failure (the whole week) just because i go so heavy thinking its only a couple exercises i better give it all i got, and end up burning out after 20 mins, which i feel isnt enough sets. and 3 times per week worked out to 6 sets to failure per week (mostly because these turned into 3 or 4 muscles per workout).

im looking to try your method and i think itll be a nice medium to what ive been doing and looks like itll agree with my body type. thanks again, modok.

35

Hey MODOK,

Just wanted to say thanks for the knowledge you shared in the BBB-tread. I upped my calories as you recommended, and started gaining bodyweight and strength again, which had been stuck for a while.

I just finished the fourth week of the 4 day template.

The most noticeable results:

  • Calculated 1RM in the trap bar deadlift is up 15 kg/33 lbs
  • Incline db press has gone from 12x37,5 kg to 6x45 kg (there will be at least 8 reps next week - wasn’t feeling too good that session)
  • Flat db press has gone from 13x35 kg to 10x42,5 kg
  • Hammercurl has gone from 8x24 kg to 6x30 kg - per arm! Pretty strict form too.

Weighted pull-ups are standing still, but I still consider that progress since I’m gaining weight rapidly again.

I have some questions though:

  • Is it ok that I moved around on some exercises from one day to another because I found it logical to do so because of reps and exercise order, or am I screwing around? For instance, I switched around on the pull-up and the one arm row, because I like to go heavier on pull-ups, and heavy weights in the 5 rep range don’t feel right on the one arm row.

  • I switched out a few exercises after finishing the first ramp. For instance, I started doing front squats on the 5 - 7 rep day instead of split squats, since the reps became lower.

  • How do you address joint issues? I think the decline tricep extension caused a little elbow trouble for me earlier this week, but it has healed up now and I can do the exercise without trouble again. Question is, should I ride it out the next two weeks, or do the CGBP instead to be safe?

  • For these four weeks I have done two different versions of the lateral raise for two out of three shoulder exercises since I want to emphasize the lateral delts, and since I feel the front head gets lots of stimulation from all the other pressing. I’m aware this goes agains the NMA recommendations of the book. Again, is this an OK choice, or am I screwing around?

Routine looks like this (reps are from the first supergrowth phase):

Day 1 (10 - 12 reps):
Chest supported row (3)
Flat DB press (3)
Hammercurl (3)
Standing calves in smith machine (3)
Day 2 (10 - 12 reps):
Dips (3)
Lateral raises (3)
Trap bar deadlift (3)
Ab wheel rollouts (3)
Day 3 (8 - 10 reps):
One arm plate loaded row (3)
Incline DB press (3)
Natural glute ham raises (3)
One arm incline lateral raise (1)
Donkey calf raise (2)
Seated incline DB curl (1)
Decline triceps extension (1)
Day 4 (5 - 7 reps):
Front squat (3)
Incline pin press (3)
Weighted pull-ups (3)
Seated DB shoulder press (1)
Standing calves in smith machine (2)
Decline triceps extension (1)
Hammercurl (1)

In addition to this I walk with a heavy backpack about once per week (in the army for the long run) and I do some prehab exercises such as external rotations and facepulls. Nothing strenous, but as needed.

Sorry, for the wall of text - I hope it’s ok.

Thanks! :slight_smile:

36

Thanks for the response MODOK :slight_smile:

The funny thing about my elbows is that skull crushers actually hurts them, while doing them on a decline with my arms leaned backwards doesn’t. But you are definitely right; there’s no point in playing with fire. I’ll replace the decline extension with a compound press and/or some cable exercise. I think I gonna keep the lateral raise though. The upright row just doesn’t feel natural for my shoulders.

37

MODOK,

I believe I’ve read elsewhere on this site that back in the day, most lifters you trained around hit everything twice a week with some version of the heavy/light set-up. Was this percentage-based heavy/light, i.e. 100% on day 1, 80% of that weight on day 2? Or was it simply a lower rep range followed by a higher rep range, i.e. 6-8 on day 1, 10-12 on day 2?

Also, earlier in this thread, you mentioned that you now find alternating heavy and light days (in regards to failure v. non-failure or pump days) leaves you spinning your wheels. Have you noticed, however, that some body parts respond to it while the rest of the body can be taken to failure more often? I ask because I’m considering switching to such a heavy/light set-up for my arms while still going heavy in both weekly sessions for the rest of my body, and wondered if you’d ever experimented with that.

38

‘MODOK the Kimmerian’ - nice pic!

good stuff here!

39

[quote]MODOK wrote:
The only thing that I don’t fail on is squat movements (obviously), but I do approach failure on them as well.

[/quote]

Hey Modok, by this do you mean that on most other movements you are actually going for a rep and failing to get it at the end? (Some people say thats failure while others say training to failure is just barely getting the last rep, even though they’re not technically failing)

Also I was wondering your opinion on something. Lately I’ve been doing a kind of “powerbuilding” type routine, strength on bench, deadlift and split squats has gone up a lot. My arm size though is just barely bigger than the last time I was at this weight (if at all) and my bicep exercises aren’t really going anywhere. Triceps I’m not as concerned about because all of my pressing is going up. But for bi’s the main exercises I’m doing are EZ-bar preachers and pinwheels. I love pinwheels but switched them out a couple months ago, when I went back they were about the same and now they’ve been about the same the last couple of weeks. Any suggestions? I hit biceps twice a week (the preachers one day, pinwheels 3-4 days later), fairly low volume (2x10 lately…I’m working with someone at my gym helping me with strength so I’ve not wanted to change much around because most is going well)

Thanks a lot

40

pumped340, between EZ-bar curls and pinwheels (depending on where you grip the EZ-bar), you’re not really getting a lot of supinated biceps work in there. I would add in something like DB curls with emphasis on keeping the pinkies up.