T Nation

Modifying Sheiko

Since I’ve heard such wonderful things about Sheiko I’ve decided to give it a run. From what I’ve read I should really be attempting to make the program my own and modify it to my needs. But… I don’t know what they are. So I think I need some help.

I lift single ply, in a USAPL or USPF affiliated Irish fed. Best lifts of a 485 squat, 345 bench and 485 deadlift at 198, 20 years old.

  1. I’ve always pulled conventional, but intend to switch to sumo in the near future, would doing all the deadlift like exercises as sumo be a good idea since I’d be learning and trynig to get used to the techniques and positions involved?

Maybe doing the first deadlift movement on wednesday in a suit with the straps down, and the 2nd DL movemnt of the day, and the rest of the week raw.

  1. I’m thinking of doing the first 4 weeks of squats without a belt since I’m coming off 2 comps in 7 weeks so I’d like a bit of a break from heavy weight. Good idea?

  2. My raw bench strength is important to me, just because! So would doing say (btw I’m looking at the basic sheiko prep cycle for this!) 3 boards on Monday, raw flat work on Wednesday and incline benching on Friday be a good idea?

  3. If I run thru 4 weeks of the prep cycle, should I then go onto the comp cycle or re-test my maxes and run the prep cycle again with the revised weights?

  4. I’ve put all my numbers into the cycle, and it looks a little on the light side. Is this just because the volume is so high?? Is it really enough to get strength gains out of?

I know alot of the questions probably have a best answer of “try it and see” but I was just hoping I some peple with more experince might have tried something alon the same lines and might be able to chime in with some tips. Thanks all!

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Since I’ve heard such wonderful things about Sheiko I’ve decided to give it a run. From what I’ve read I should really be attempting to make the program my own and modify it to my needs. But… I don’t know what they are. So I think I need some help.

I lift single ply, in a USAPL or USPF affiliated Irish fed. Best lifts of a 485 squat, 345 bench and 485 deadlift at 198, 20 years old.

  1. I’ve always pulled conventional, but intend to switch to sumo in the near future, would doing all the deadlift like exercises as sumo be a good idea since I’d be learning and trynig to get used to the techniques and positions involved?

Maybe doing the first deadlift movement on wednesday in a suit with the straps down, and the 2nd DL movemnt of the day, and the rest of the week raw.

  1. I’m thinking of doing the first 4 weeks of squats without a belt since I’m coming off 2 comps in 7 weeks so I’d like a bit of a break from heavy weight. Good idea?

  2. My raw bench strength is important to me, just because! So would doing say (btw I’m looking at the basic sheiko prep cycle for this!) 3 boards on Monday, raw flat work on Wednesday and incline benching on Friday be a good idea?

  3. If I run thru 4 weeks of the prep cycle, should I then go onto the comp cycle or re-test my maxes and run the prep cycle again with the revised weights?

  4. I’ve put all my numbers into the cycle, and it looks a little on the light side. Is this just because the volume is so high?? Is it really enough to get strength gains out of?

I know alot of the questions probably have a best answer of “try it and see” but I was just hoping I some peple with more experince might have tried something alon the same lines and might be able to chime in with some tips. Thanks all![/quote]

Well there is no 1 right answer to any of your questions. Try it and see :). But here is my opinion on each of your points.

  1. if you’re switching to sumo then train sumo style but you want to rotate some conventional deadlifts, conventional stance rack pulls or conventional stance romanian deadlifts into the program. Don’t use the suit for deadlifts. It’s counterintuitive to the program. Train without.

  2. sort of. Good idea in principle but if you’re doing the master of sport cycle keep in mind you’ll be hitting 90% and 95% of your max on week 3 and 4 of the peaking cycle. if you can manage that without the belt then go for it. otherwise be safe.

  3. yes. May want to work in some pause benches. And if you?re training raw you may want to ditch the boards and substitute with pin presses and floor presses. Save the boards for when you?re back in the shirt. Just my opinion, you’ll get varying advice on the board press issue.

  4. if this is your first time doing it then run the prep and then retest your maxes and then move to the competition/peaking cycle. you’ll have a much more accurate idea of what you’re getting into. If you’re already familiar with the program you can just run your maxes through the calculator from the start and use those numbers for the entire program.

  5. yes. Sheiko is a brilliant program, great for peaking and conditioning. Don?t let the light weight fool you. It’s a lot of volume with little rest between workouts.

If you start adding weight or more reps/sets you’ll burn out very fast. Just make sure that your max weight that you calculate the percentages off of is accurate. Don’t understate it, don’t overstate it. the program works. Trust in it.

Good luck.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Since I’ve heard such wonderful things about Sheiko I’ve decided to give it a run. From what I’ve read I should really be attempting to make the program my own and modify it to my needs. But… I don’t know what they are. So I think I need some help.

I lift single ply, in a USAPL or USPF affiliated Irish fed. Best lifts of a 485 squat, 345 bench and 485 deadlift at 198, 20 years old.

  1. I’ve always pulled conventional, but intend to switch to sumo in the near future, would doing all the deadlift like exercises as sumo be a good idea since I’d be learning and trynig to get used to the techniques and positions involved?

Maybe doing the first deadlift movement on wednesday in a suit with the straps down, and the 2nd DL movemnt of the day, and the rest of the week raw.

  1. I’m thinking of doing the first 4 weeks of squats without a belt since I’m coming off 2 comps in 7 weeks so I’d like a bit of a break from heavy weight. Good idea?

  2. My raw bench strength is important to me, just because! So would doing say (btw I’m looking at the basic sheiko prep cycle for this!) 3 boards on Monday, raw flat work on Wednesday and incline benching on Friday be a good idea?

  3. If I run thru 4 weeks of the prep cycle, should I then go onto the comp cycle or re-test my maxes and run the prep cycle again with the revised weights?

  4. I’ve put all my numbers into the cycle, and it looks a little on the light side. Is this just because the volume is so high?? Is it really enough to get strength gains out of?

I know alot of the questions probably have a best answer of “try it and see” but I was just hoping I some peple with more experince might have tried something alon the same lines and might be able to chime in with some tips. Thanks all![/quote]

I.) If you plan to try pulling Sumo, then doing the Sheiko routine will be perfect for learning your Sumo technique because there will be som many reps. I would do all the different pulls Sumo as well.

2.) I don’t think it’s a good idea to train without a belt unless you’re going to be working of a true raw max without using a belt. If you do that, then it should be fine, but it may not help increase your total when you throw on the gear.

3.) Unless Incline is a major weak point for you, I wouldn’t do an entire day of Incline. Stick with boards or Floor Press if you want to modify the days.

4.) This is hard to say because it all depends on how much volume training you need to do. If you need to do more volume, re-max, then do the prep cycle again with the new maxes and after that, then do the comp cycle.

5.) Yes, the training weights seem low, but remember, the volume is high, and the volume will catch up to you on Week 3. I’ve seen many people modify their weights, only to be grossly over-trained by Week 3, so just stick with it.

Remember, the whole point of Sheiko is to build your work capacity, so if that’s a really weak point for you, you’re going to get better at the end of the phases. However, if work capacity is already high, then Sheiko may not be what you need. Conjugate may be a better approach to driving up your nervous system response.

Robo1 and Dominator, thanks for the responses…

I’m really liking the sheiko idea for becoming a better sumo puller. Especially since it’s mostly moderate weight and reps. It should give me the chance to make sure I keep everything in check

On point 2, I’d be basing my squat off of my beltless max, which is probably about 15kg less than my belted max so I can’t see why there’d be a problem there.

But another thing has been suggested to me… I could do the beltless squats first, then later in the session use my belted pause squat maxes and do them. Hell I could even do box squats, the possibilities are endless. Finding the optimal one is the problem.

On number 4, I’m just coming off a VERY hard 3 months of training so I don’t want to jump back into another peaking cycle straight away. I could always just re-djust the percentages up 3-5% and repeat the prep cycle again.

I actually mis-read the original template and didn’t seee the Saturday session which has incline benches already included, so I guess adding in inclines is moot. I’ll probably do floor presses instead.

Basically the problem is there’s so many bloody things that i COULD do it’s hard to figure out what i SHOULD do!

Do not neglect lat, biceps and rear delts!
Mobility and stretching are also advised.

[quote]eisenaffe wrote:
Do not neglect lat, biceps and rear delts!
Mobility and stretching are also advised.[/quote]

Duly noted! :wink:

I was gonna do one set of high rep dumbbell rows on the Saturday (ala Matt K) and then do a 5th day where I’m gonna do something like;

Chins: 4x10
Chest Supported Rows: 5x10
Rear flys (on a machine): 3x15
supersetted with
Lateral Raises: 3x12
Barbell Curls: 3x6
supersetted with
One arm curls: 3x15

Look about right??

Looks good on paper. :wink:

Towards the end you’ll be so tired that you’ll probably do only facepulls and chinups, if at all… at least that’s how it went for me.

I use sheiko training very often (if not always) for me and powerlifters i coach, so some advise i noticed.

  1. yes you have to moove it for your own but pay attention on not change sheiko training too much and let them became a poor bodybuilding training.

do not add needless exercise. 2 exercise for back strength 1 o monday and 1 on friday (or w and sat) it’s above than enought.

This type of training is another things from anything else you could find on western market, so dont try to let this training became more “commercial”.

  1. you could change for exemple the second bench press on monday with a
    -bench press with bands (using about the same % and reps/sets)
    -close grip (5% less)
    -in some sheiko trainig he uses also board press in the second bench, this would help you to recover and traing with much more fun.
    the same with the 2nd squat on friday, box or front, chain, also sheiko uses this stuff.

  2. the idea on dl is good, for the moment you find a good motion do always sumo.

  3. after 4 weeks preparatory you can choose a 5 w competion or doing another preparatory, a little different. It’s depend on your meet.
    remember to think the majorty of training like 1:1 one week more volume, one week more intensity (%of load, not heavy duty intensity) and always the same frequncy.

  4. the workout looks easy because you probably dont already reach your potential, you can add some weight sometimes BUT first of all think of being as FAST AS POSSIBLE.

do always pause on chest and explode in concentric, this will help in a great way your raw bench but also (you’ll see) the lock out.

i hope this help, keep trainig, you will enjoy your result very very much.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Since I’ve heard such wonderful things about Sheiko I’ve decided to give it a run. From what I’ve read I should really be attempting to make the program my own and modify it to my needs. But… I don’t know what they are. So I think I need some help.

I lift single ply, in a USAPL or USPF affiliated Irish fed. Best lifts of a 485 squat, 345 bench and 485 deadlift at 198, 20 years old.

  1. I’ve always pulled conventional, but intend to switch to sumo in the near future, would doing all the deadlift like exercises as sumo be a good idea since I’d be learning and trynig to get used to the techniques and positions involved?

Maybe doing the first deadlift movement on wednesday in a suit with the straps down, and the 2nd DL movemnt of the day, and the rest of the week raw.

  1. I’m thinking of doing the first 4 weeks of squats without a belt since I’m coming off 2 comps in 7 weeks so I’d like a bit of a break from heavy weight. Good idea?

  2. My raw bench strength is important to me, just because! So would doing say (btw I’m looking at the basic sheiko prep cycle for this!) 3 boards on Monday, raw flat work on Wednesday and incline benching on Friday be a good idea?

  3. If I run thru 4 weeks of the prep cycle, should I then go onto the comp cycle or re-test my maxes and run the prep cycle again with the revised weights?

  4. I’ve put all my numbers into the cycle, and it looks a little on the light side. Is this just because the volume is so high?? Is it really enough to get strength gains out of?

I know alot of the questions probably have a best answer of “try it and see” but I was just hoping I some peple with more experince might have tried something alon the same lines and might be able to chime in with some tips. Thanks all![/quote]

I have been through may sheiko cycles and here is what I think.

  1. Doing all the deadlift exercises,or at least the majority would be ideal.

  2. Doing a couple of weeks of squatting without a belt probably isn’t a bad idea as long as you adjust the percentages accordingly.

  3. I would stick to doing the board presses on the days where he recommends benching twice and use either paused or soft touch benches for the rest of the sessions. I think this is ideal for a raw or single ply bencher.

  4. Since it is your first time through and you don’t have a comp coming up I would I would do the 4 week prep period, followed by a 2 week mini peaking cycle, followed by another prep period.

  5. I think this will very from person to person. Some people say go lighter some say go heavier. It’s all about what you can handle without burning out or hurting yourself.

I usually start out with the numbers exactly as he has them. When the weight starts to feel light and form is perfect I will up by 5-10 lbs. If my first rep and 3rd rep are the same speed or very close for the 80% weights I will usually up the weight after the 2nd weeek.

Check youtube for the user hoop165. That will give you an idea of how hard the reps are supposed to be. Also, if you track his training it will give you a good idea of how to work the equipment in.

Good Luck and please keep a log.

ado gruzza , thanks so much for taking the time out to type all of that for me. I really appreicate it.

Bad_mo_fo, I’m glad it looks like I’m along the right track. I’ve been workign it out on paper over the last couple of days. I’m gonna get it startd on 26th May. I hadn’t planned on a journal but it might be an idea, as much for my benefit as everyone elses. Hmmmmm…

BUUUUUUUUUMP.

Just wondering if anyone has any more thoughts on this before I post up what’s likely to be my finalisd plan?

I don’t have anything to tell you, other than that if you are going to be doing any lat work, don’t do anything that stresses your lower back (like BO rows). All the squatting and deadlifting is already a lot.

I’m interested to see what you have come up with.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
I was gonna do one set of high rep dumbbell rows on the Saturday (ala Matt K) and then do a 5th day where I’m gonna do something like;

Chins: 4x10
Chest Supported Rows: 5x10
Rear flys (on a machine): 3x15
supersetted with
Lateral Raises: 3x12
Barbell Curls: 3x6
supersetted with
One arm curls: 3x15

Look about right??[/quote]

Seems a little too much accessory work to me.

I normally recommend a little more lat work when doing Sheiko, especially if the lifter doesn’t have a monster Deadlift. I think you can add some type of rows (no more than 5 x 10) on Day 1 and Day 3 and still be okay so that you don’t overtrain.

The main thing to remember is that the Sheiko workouts are very taxing due to the high volume, so a substantial amount of accessory work doesn’t make sense, especially an entire day. When looking at these workouts, it seems as if it’s going to be too easy, but don’t let that fool you…these workouts can have you overtrained in no time.

YEah Dominator I’ve been looking at that and thinking the same too…

Should I just do 1 exercise 2x a week at the end of day one and day three?

Say face pulls, and chest supported rows maybe?

5x10ish each…?

Also, I was thinking of dropping the flys outta the Wednesday marathon session and switching them for some back exercise like face pulls or some high rep dumbbell rows. Good/bad idea?

Ive read that Sheiko believes the raw bencher can never get too much chest work. I’ve seen programs where sheiko gave the lifter the choice of db benche instead of flyes. I would just add rows on day 1 and face pulls on day 2.

If you start having shoulder problems you can add in more, but i think i would leave the db benches and pick them over flyes. Who the fuck does flyes?

[quote]RailRoader wrote:
Ive read that Sheiko believes the raw bencher can never get too much chest work. I’ve seen programs where sheiko gave the lifter the choice of db benche instead of flyes. I would just add rows on day 1 and face pulls on day 2.

If you start having shoulder problems you can add in more, but i think i would leave the db benches and pick them over flyes. Who the fuck does flyes?[/quote]

I don’t do the flyes or dumbell presses. For my assistance I do face pulls on Wednesday and either barbell rows or chins on Friday. Every now and then I will throw in some triceps but not too often, I go by feel.

I just stick to the main lifts and variations of the mains lifts for the percentage and number of lifts recommended. If it isn’t counted in the NBL for the week, for the most part, I just don’t do it.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
YEah Dominator I’ve been looking at that and thinking the same too…

Should I just do 1 exercise 2x a week at the end of day one and day three?

Say face pulls, and chest supported rows maybe?

5x10ish each…?

Also, I was thinking of dropping the flys outta the Wednesday marathon session and switching them for some back exercise like face pulls or some high rep dumbbell rows. Good/bad idea?[/quote]

I think you’re on the right track now with your accessory work.

I’ve recommended before that dropping adding a lat instead of the flys makes way more sense, that is unless your lats are sufficiently strong and your pecs or tris are the weakness, then I would leave it as is.

The other way is simply to keep it as is and add a few sets of lats on Day 1 and Day 3 at the end of the second half of the workout (remember, Sheiko is meant to be broken up into two parts: when the first exercise repeats, that’s where the second workout starts).

As far as your selection of exercises, I think that chest supported rows and face pulls make the most sense, and actually, I think that face pulls with a sled make more sense. This breakdown has worked well for me as well as the others that have tried it this way.

about fly and doumbell bench press:

this exercises must be seen as a active recovery.
hooper do it with 25-30kg with a raw bench of 200 or more. So think that this exercises, done at least 2 time a week avoid you from injury, increase your flex in chest muscles, and fasten (dont know if its the right word in english) you muscle recovery. Do them, belive me.

after the bench marathon on wed, you can easily switch on some chin up.

i repeat: i read some russian sheiko trainig for bench press only and he devide assistence like that:
monday back muscles
?wednsday tricepts
friday back muscles
saturday tricepts