T Nation

Moderate HCG Dose


#1

Hey guys! I've been stalking this side of T-Nation for about a month now, and have decided to take action action against my low T. I've had two failed PCT's from a 5 month steroid cycle (both times I used clomid+nolva together for only a month, and it did nothing).

My question, which seems to be brought up alot here, is how much HCG is too much? KSman knows his shit, and it would seem he suggests 250iu EOD seems to be appropriate. Has anyone had success with doubling that dose? I was thinking of starting off my PCT with 500iu EOD for 3 weeks.

Am I correct in saying an AI does not matter in the case of HCG? So, even if the HCG caused too much aromatization, I would not be able to correct the issue?

If that IS the case, I think I would then stick with the HCG at a lower dose as KSman recommends.

Thanks ahead guys!


#2

Ending a 20 week cycle with just nolva and clomid for 4 weeks just doesnt cut it.

I used this for pct on my 20 week and it worked a charm:

20 Days HCG @ 500iu ED
4 weeks Aromasin @ 25mg ED
2 Weeks Nolva @ 40mg
4 weeks Nolva @ 20mg


#3

^like he said, a 4 week PCT for a 20 week cycle is simply not long enough.


#4

Thanks for the response guys. I do infact plan on running a PCT longer than 4 weeks. My plan was to run nolva for the 6 weeks like DoctorJekyll has said.

I’m just unsure how much HCG guys should be using. The guys in T-replacement section are saying that because estrogen from HCG is created in the testicles, an AI cannot take care of it, and that I need to be keeping it at a lower dose. They all recommend an HPTA restart with 250iu of HCG EOD for a few weeks, then begin taking a serm (which will be my nolvadex). My plan would like like this:

Week 1-4:
250iu HCG eod
Aromasin 12.5 ed

Week 5-10:
Nolva 20mg

I will then plan on tapering off the nolva on week 11, taking 20mg EOD. Thoughts? My main concern is the HCG right now.


#5

i would do it a bit differently.

Week 1-3:
HCG-500 IU eod
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 4:
D-aspartic Acid-3,000 mg in the morning
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 5:
D-aspartic Acid-3,000 mg in the morning
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
Nolva 20mg-ed, at night
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 6:
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
Nolva 20mg-ed, at night
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 7-12:
Nolva 20mg-ed, at night
ZMA-3 caps/night

^a couple things. HCG has been shown to be quite effective at 500 IU, EOD for 3 weeks. it also has an effect for about a week, hence stopping that for a week prior to the SERM. take the Aromasin along with the HCG, as it will keep total E in control, and adjust it as needed. also, take it with supper, as some guys get drowsy from it, and it is best absorbed with a meal. also, take the Nolva at night (with your ZMA) as it also makes guys tired and will help ya sleep. and take ZMA, as a deficiency of zinc or magneium can wreck your T levels…

we’re running Nolva for 8 weeks, as it has been shown to work for that long, as well. and we run Aromasin for a week with Nolva, to keep E in check while the SERM begins to work…

the D-aspartic Acid seems to help the testes recover as well, but should not be taken for longer than 2 weeks.

now, if you have access to Tore, then i would actually suggest running that instead of Nolva, and run it at 60 mg/day for 12 weeks. also, if you currently have estrogen related issues, then i would keep the HCG lower (in the 250 IU range), but if not, then i would not be afraid to bump it up…


#6

^you might also wanna toss some vitamin D in there, as that tends to help keep T up and E under control.

depending on where you live and your diet, you might not be getting enough sunlight or D in your diet…


#7

You can start to take some HCG prior to ending your cycle. It will stimulate the testes regardless of your T levels and start to get things going. What you’re trying to do is get the testes back to life with the HCG and then use the SERM to restart the top end of your HTPA axis.

You can run higher (i.e. up to 500 iu ED) levels of HCG, but it may or may not have much of an effect in terms of actual T production. It may very well have a desensitizing effect on the Leydig cells. Because you’re in PCT, you’re not trying to over-drive your testes and create a bunch of T, you’re just trying to get them back producing T after being shut down. I think this is one of those situations where you’re better off starting early (during the last 2-3 weeks of the cycle) and using a smaller amount (250 iu EOD) to get the boys producing. Continuing to use the HCG for 20 days after the end of the cycle is a good thing as by this point, your T levels will have dropped to a ‘normal’ level (assuming short/medium length T esters).

At that point, you can start with the SERM and produce your own LH (and FSH, etc.) which the testes should respond normally to, because you haven’t down-regulated the Leydig cells with high levels of HCG. When you taper off of those, hopefully nature will do what it does and you’ll be in good shape.

In my mind, the PCT should be just like the rest of your cycle. Use only the amount of whatever chemical it takes to do the job you want. Using too much is generally much more of a problem than using too little.


#8

[quote]Fat Boy 33 wrote:
You can start to take some HCG prior to ending your cycle. It will stimulate the testes regardless of your T levels and start to get things going. What you’re trying to do is get the testes back to life with the HCG and then use the SERM to restart the top end of your HTPA axis.

You can run higher (i.e. up to 500 iu ED) levels of HCG, but it may or may not have much of an effect in terms of actual T production. It may very well have a desensitizing effect on the Leydig cells. Because you’re in PCT, you’re not trying to over-drive your testes and create a bunch of T, you’re just trying to get them back producing T after being shut down. I think this is one of those situations where you’re better off starting early (during the last 2-3 weeks of the cycle) and using a smaller amount (250 iu EOD) to get the boys producing. Continuing to use the HCG for 20 days after the end of the cycle is a good thing as by this point, your T levels will have dropped to a ‘normal’ level (assuming short/medium length T esters).

At that point, you can start with the SERM and produce your own LH (and FSH, etc.) which the testes should respond normally to, because you haven’t down-regulated the Leydig cells with high levels of HCG. When you taper off of those, hopefully nature will do what it does and you’ll be in good shape.

In my mind, the PCT should be just like the rest of your cycle. Use only the amount of whatever chemical it takes to do the job you want. Using too much is generally much more of a problem than using too little.[/quote]

i don’t think he’s in PCT right now… he’s talking about a restart.


#9

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i would do it a bit differently.

Week 1-3:
HCG-500 IU eod
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 4:
D-aspartic Acid-3,000 mg in the morning
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 5:
D-aspartic Acid-3,000 mg in the morning
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
Nolva 20mg-ed, at night
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 6:
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
Nolva 20mg-ed, at night
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 7-12:
Nolva 20mg-ed, at night
ZMA-3 caps/night

^a couple things. HCG has been shown to be quite effective at 500 IU, EOD for 3 weeks. it also has an effect for about a week, hence stopping that for a week prior to the SERM. take the Aromasin along with the HCG, as it will keep total E in control, and adjust it as needed. also, take it with supper, as some guys get drowsy from it, and it is best absorbed with a meal. also, take the Nolva at night (with your ZMA) as it also makes guys tired and will help ya sleep. and take ZMA, as a deficiency of zinc or magneium can wreck your T levels…

we’re running Nolva for 8 weeks, as it has been shown to work for that long, as well. and we run Aromasin for a week with Nolva, to keep E in check while the SERM begins to work…

the D-aspartic Acid seems to help the testes recover as well, but should not be taken for longer than 2 weeks.

now, if you have access to Tore, then i would actually suggest running that instead of Nolva, and run it at 60 mg/day for 12 weeks. also, if you currently have estrogen related issues, then i would keep the HCG lower (in the 250 IU range), but if not, then i would not be afraid to bump it up…
[/quote]

Interesting. This sounds like a great plan, thank you.

Shouldnt the aromasin be split up in two doses? I’ve heard the half life is only about 8 hours or so… I’ve read guys taking 12.5mg doses, once in the afternoon and one at night.

I did have some estrogen related issues on cycle, so i think I will start with the 250iu eod to start, and maybe bump it up if im feeling good.

Also, could I start the nolva a big higher, say at 40mg and taper down after the first two weeks as DoctorJekyll has done?

Again, thank you for the response, I am learning alot and am glad I decided to post.


#10

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fat Boy 33 wrote:
You can start to take some HCG prior to ending your cycle. It will stimulate the testes regardless of your T levels and start to get things going. What you’re trying to do is get the testes back to life with the HCG and then use the SERM to restart the top end of your HTPA axis.

You can run higher (i.e. up to 500 iu ED) levels of HCG, but it may or may not have much of an effect in terms of actual T production. It may very well have a desensitizing effect on the Leydig cells. Because you’re in PCT, you’re not trying to over-drive your testes and create a bunch of T, you’re just trying to get them back producing T after being shut down. I think this is one of those situations where you’re better off starting early (during the last 2-3 weeks of the cycle) and using a smaller amount (250 iu EOD) to get the boys producing. Continuing to use the HCG for 20 days after the end of the cycle is a good thing as by this point, your T levels will have dropped to a ‘normal’ level (assuming short/medium length T esters).

At that point, you can start with the SERM and produce your own LH (and FSH, etc.) which the testes should respond normally to, because you haven’t down-regulated the Leydig cells with high levels of HCG. When you taper off of those, hopefully nature will do what it does and you’ll be in good shape.

In my mind, the PCT should be just like the rest of your cycle. Use only the amount of whatever chemical it takes to do the job you want. Using too much is generally much more of a problem than using too little.[/quote]

i don’t think he’s in PCT right now… he’s talking about a restart.
[/quote]

Indeed, sorry I have not made that clear enough. I have had 2 attempts in the last 6 months at PCT, clearly they were totally wrong and did not work.

I am trying to restart my nuts.


#11

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
^like he said, a 4 week PCT for a 20 week cycle is simply not long enough.

Also, I will be starting this reboot in about 3 weeks when I get everything together. I will be getting bloodwork done right before I start, during and after. Does that sound correct?


#12

[quote]Hastein wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i would do it a bit differently.

Week 1-3:
HCG-500 IU eod
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 4:
D-aspartic Acid-3,000 mg in the morning
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 5:
D-aspartic Acid-3,000 mg in the morning
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
Nolva 20mg-ed, at night
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 6:
Aromasin 25 mg ed, with last meal of the day (adjust down as needed)
Nolva 20mg-ed, at night
ZMA-3 caps/night

Week 7-12:
Nolva 20mg-ed, at night
ZMA-3 caps/night

^a couple things. HCG has been shown to be quite effective at 500 IU, EOD for 3 weeks. it also has an effect for about a week, hence stopping that for a week prior to the SERM. take the Aromasin along with the HCG, as it will keep total E in control, and adjust it as needed. also, take it with supper, as some guys get drowsy from it, and it is best absorbed with a meal. also, take the Nolva at night (with your ZMA) as it also makes guys tired and will help ya sleep. and take ZMA, as a deficiency of zinc or magneium can wreck your T levels…

we’re running Nolva for 8 weeks, as it has been shown to work for that long, as well. and we run Aromasin for a week with Nolva, to keep E in check while the SERM begins to work…

the D-aspartic Acid seems to help the testes recover as well, but should not be taken for longer than 2 weeks.

now, if you have access to Tore, then i would actually suggest running that instead of Nolva, and run it at 60 mg/day for 12 weeks. also, if you currently have estrogen related issues, then i would keep the HCG lower (in the 250 IU range), but if not, then i would not be afraid to bump it up…
[/quote]

Interesting. This sounds like a great plan, thank you.

Shouldnt the aromasin be split up in two doses? I’ve heard the half life is only about 8 hours or so… I’ve read guys taking 12.5mg doses, once in the afternoon and one at night.

I did have some estrogen related issues on cycle, so i think I will start with the 250iu eod to start, and maybe bump it up if im feeling good.

Also, could I start the nolva a big higher, say at 40mg and taper down after the first two weeks as DoctorJekyll has done?

Again, thank you for the response, I am learning alot and am glad I decided to post.
[/quote]

well, while the half-life of Aromasin is relatively short, it’s a suicide inhibitor, which means it eliminates the aromatase enzyme completely. to convert test to estrogen, we would actually need aromatase to build back up before it can even convert T to E… if you look at data on Aromasin, you’ll see that while it can lower E by 60% at it’s peak, it usually only remains at about 35% lower, due to this mechanism. the key is to keep taking aromasin at the same time, everyday.

anyway, if you are worried about E, then a slightly lower HCG dose is not a bad idea. it is still gonna send a “LH” signal to the testes, albeit slightly weaker.

i’m not a believer in high dose SERMs, at all. there is no data showing that 40 mg of tamoxifen is any more effective than 20 mg, and the half-life is long enough (5 days-ish) that a taper is kinda unnecessary, IMO.

SERMs actually increase estrogen (like HCG does), but simply prevent it from attaching to the receptor. with that being said, we want to raise LH and test, but we don’t want it to be so high and so rapid that we start converting more T to E, and then have to deal with it when the SERM is done.


#13

[quote]Hastein wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
^like he said, a 4 week PCT for a 20 week cycle is simply not long enough.

Also, I will be starting this reboot in about 3 weeks when I get everything together. I will be getting bloodwork done right before I start, during and after. Does that sound correct?
[/quote]

sure.

at least, get bloodwork ahead of time, so you can adjust your plan accordingly…


#14

OK, I didn’t read enough. My bad.


#15

I was wondering if you could help me?


#16

with what? that’s a rather vague question…


#17

im taking 500 iu of hcg eod for 3 weeks. Should i start clomid after my
last hcg injection or wait 5 days after?