MMA Fighter's Perspective

[quote]loppar wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
People can just dream about submitting me most of the time, beacause I can muscle my way out of most kinds of trouble. This is a very… ambivalent situation of course. If you get TOO used to relying on strenght… it is a very bad thing, and you never learn the techniques good enough… Hard to do much about that though.

Well, you could “turn off” your strength when sparring with smaller guys.

I’m also a pretty big guy (109 kg) so when I roll with smaller guys I try to avoid using my strength to get out of bad positions. Granted, even when I rely solely on technique, it’s still easier for me to control smaller guys in top positions.

If you use your strength too much during training, you might find yourself in a world of trouble when fighting someone of equal or greater strength.

[/quote]

Well, it is easy to say, harder to do… :slight_smile: I can try all i want, but i can’t “turn off” my strenght. A lot of stuff (like bridging off) requires explosivity… and i can’t slow that down with right form etc… Hard… :slight_smile:

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
All things being equal, the stronger fighter is the better fighter. But all things are not equal. Strength is such a small part of MMA. Superior technique in wrestling, jiu-jitsu and muay-thai will negate strength. Don?t get me wrong, strength doesn?t hurt, but I have never once felt like I lost because my opponent was stronger. Every loss I have incurred is because my opponent had a better game plan or better technique.

The article is about steroids and he has a good perspective… I just found that point most applicable in regards to strength training for MMA.

Link to article: http://www.insidefighting.com/betweenRoundsDisp.aspx?uid=3485[/quote]

Nice post Xen.

[quote]Adamsson wrote:

Well, look at Crocop vs. Sapp… pure technique versus pure strenght. or Sapp vs. Nogueira… It isn’t a run-over, and Sapp doesen’t have any technique worth mentioning… :stuck_out_tongue:

My point isn’t that you should cut techique training, but that you should implement strenght/endurance work too. what will the perfect technique help you if you gass out after 1 minute? etc… It is a mix, you should have both… :slight_smile:
[/quote]

It depends. When on the ground strength is important. When striking it doesn’t really matter what your bench is. In Crocop vs. Sapp there is a huge disparity in skill and technique. Mirko is an explosive athlete as well.

It is hard to apply your strength standing up unless you are in the clinch and/or leaning on your opponent. Sapp vs. Nogeira took place on the ground. With Sapp having nearly a 150 pound weight advantage. Also Nog isn’t strong(in the weight room).

I have seen him lift weights up close and a 70kg bench is pushing it. I would say Sapp-Nogueira is pure strength and size against pure technique and conditioning.

Anyway you should strive to have everything. I haven’t seen many guys who couldn’t use more practice with their striking though.

[quote]otoko wrote:
Adamsson wrote:

Well, look at Crocop vs. Sapp… pure technique versus pure strenght. or Sapp vs. Nogueira… It isn’t a run-over, and Sapp doesen’t have any technique worth mentioning… :stuck_out_tongue:

My point isn’t that you should cut techique training, but that you should implement strenght/endurance work too. what will the perfect technique help you if you gass out after 1 minute? etc… It is a mix, you should have both… :slight_smile:

It depends. When on the ground strength is important. When striking it doesn’t really matter what your bench is. In Crocop vs. Sapp there is a huge disparity in skill and technique. Mirko is an explosive athlete as well.

It is hard to apply your strength standing up unless you are in the clinch and/or leaning on your opponent. Sapp vs. Nogeira took place on the ground. With Sapp having nearly a 150 pound weight advantage. Also Nog isn’t strong(in the weight room).

I have seen him lift weights up close and a 70kg bench is pushing it. I would say Sapp-Nogueira is pure strength and size against pure technique and conditioning.

Anyway you should strive to have everything. I haven’t seen many guys who couldn’t use more practice with their striking though.
[/quote]

very true im going through great lengths to improve my muay thai and boxing… the jujitsu & wrestling has been coming pretty easily in comparison.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:

very true im going through great lengths to improve my muay thai and boxing… the jujitsu & wrestling has been coming pretty easily in comparison.
[/quote]

In my experience it seems people pick up the grappling much more quickly than the striking. And they improve much more rapidly with their grappling than their striking. I am not exactly quite sure why this is.

I thought maybe because you literally have hands on training while grappling. Some people just seem like naturals on the ground, they relax and they thrive on the contact. They have immediately have some success, not in submitting their opponent but in feeling comfortable.

In contrast to striking where unless you have some solid basic skills first it is hard to find any success or even just feel comfortable. Especially when you are being hit in the head, which makes many people just “forget” what they have been practicing. This is my experience. Do other people find the same thing?

I think with me otoko punching has always been natural. Punching, the power and speed and just feeling comfortable standing up with someone. I’ve always felt even with no previous training that I can move around good and feel comfortable standing up, I think for some it’s just something “natural” to them.

On technique vs. strength and all that. All it really comes down to is LOOKING AT YOUR WEAKNESSES!

If your 185 and bench 365, deadlift 550, and squat 400+. Likely you won’t NEED to do much of anything for strength. You already have your solid base, focusing more on technique + conditioning would be a lot better.
On the other hand I see guys with great technique, but just seem to be weak, and if they had that extra bit of strength it could definaetly help them out. You just have to evaluate yourself.

[quote]dl- wrote:
If your 185 and bench 365, deadlift 550, and squat 400+. Likely you won’t NEED to do much of anything for strength.[/quote]

Even there I don’t think you will find a single top 185 pound fighter who can put up those types of numbers. Maybe Paulo Filho who walks around at 215 pounds. Those numbers would be good for a HW. Strength is important, no doubt, but I think it’s just tough for us iron heads to accept the fact that it’s usually the lowest man on the totem pole. Martin Rooney has said that he has never seen a guy who lifts ands works out come into MMA and have strength be a limiting factor, it’s always the guys who have spent their lives focusing on getting perfect technique that need a good dose of strength work.

[quote]otoko wrote:
In my experience it seems people pick up the grappling much more quickly than the striking. And they improve much more rapidly with their grappling than their striking. I am not exactly quite sure why this is.

I thought maybe because you literally have hands on training while grappling. Some people just seem like naturals on the ground, they relax and they thrive on the contact. They have immediately have some success, not in submitting their opponent but in feeling comfortable.

In contrast to striking where unless you have some solid basic skills first it is hard to find any success or even just feel comfortable. Especially when you are being hit in the head, which makes many people just “forget” what they have been practicing. This is my experience. Do other people find the same thing?
[/quote]

I agree, i’m hesitant to say that grappling is easier. But i can only say that for myself my wrestling ability skyrockets compared to standup. I think it’s just easier on your CNS to train subs repeatedly than it is to hit the bag, or retrain all your timing and shit as far as standup.

I think you hit it on the head though I just have a pretty high kinesthetic awareness. My vision is horrible (saving up for PRK) so grappling for me is basically blind.

If i can touch you, standing or on the ground, its just like im in my element. It’s hard to explain…

standup has been coming along nicely though…best thing i’ve done is go way back to basics.

Spend time just drilling the form on my movements slowly as shit to get it flawless, then speed it up over weeks, and then get back to hitting the bag and applying it powerfully and repeatedly, then spar VERY lightly, almost like playing tag, but use it to work on timing and footwork, then apply that with thai pads (i worked 1 round thai pads, 1 round light sparring, rinse repeat for like an hour and half)… its the technique that builds the power so you really need that.

i had to move(again) recently and i want to train here:

sitramasoonmuaythai.com

hopefully i can do that, i might move to irvine in about 6months though.

Nice post Xen. First off I think roids is so rampant in mma because like any other sport it’s how these guys make their livings, top tier guys anyway, so any edge they can get they will take advantage.

Second a fighter needs to figure out what he need s compared to what he thinks he needs. 400 lbs deadlift or more takedown practice, you get the ideal.

P.S. Hey Xen I’m jealous of you guys in Calli, you guys can throw a rock and hit a place to train at thats close and good. Damn east coast.

[quote]roc wrote:
Nice post Xen. First off I think roids is so rampant in mma because like any other sport it’s how these guys make their livings, top tier guys anyway, so any edge they can get they will take advantage.

Second a fighter needs to figure out what he need s compared to what he thinks he needs. 400 lbs deadlift or more takedown practice, you get the ideal.

P.S. Hey Xen I’m jealous of you guys in Calli, you guys can throw a rock and hit a place to train at thats close and good. Damn east coast. [/quote]east coast sucks i drive 90min each way for bjj twice a week,its getting exspensive

[quote]roc wrote:
Nice post Xen. First off I think roids is so rampant in mma because like any other sport it’s how these guys make their livings, top tier guys anyway, so any edge they can get they will take advantage.

Second a fighter needs to figure out what he need s compared to what he thinks he needs. 400 lbs deadlift or more takedown practice, you get the ideal.

P.S. Hey Xen I’m jealous of you guys in Calli, you guys can throw a rock and hit a place to train at thats close and good. Damn east coast. [/quote]

I’d have to agree that many of the top tier guys probably use roids (camps like Hammerhouse are notorious for using them), but personally I think that many of the fighters use them more for their recovery enhancing abilities than performance enhancement. Not that none use them to increase performance.

As far as strength goes. Why is everybody making this out to be like strength and technique are mutually exclusive? Everyone who is in the upper levels of MMA trains their techniques often. True, some spend more time on them than others. But, anyone who tells you that technique isn’t important is B.S.ing you.

However, just because one realizes that technique is important doesn’t mean that they still shouldn’t work on improving their strength in the gym. Improved strength should in fact, improve technique since maximal strength also improves coordination, kinesthetic awareness, speed, etc…

Just look at the fight between Hughes and Gracie. Now, Gracie has been practicing BJJ since he was a little kid (30+ years) while Hughes has only been praciticing it for maybe half that time if he’s lucky. But, because hughes was so much stronger than Gracie, he man handled Royce in that fight.

That’s in my opinion why the Gracies aren’t at the top of the MMA food chain anymore. Because they refuse to adapt their training and do things like strength training. They’re still under the impression that all one has to do is practice technique and grapple (not that those aren’t important).

That’s just my opinion though.

Good training,

Sentoguy

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
roc wrote:
Nice post Xen. First off I think roids is so rampant in mma because like any other sport it’s how these guys make their livings, top tier guys anyway, so any edge they can get they will take advantage.

Second a fighter needs to figure out what he need s compared to what he thinks he needs. 400 lbs deadlift or more takedown practice, you get the ideal.

P.S. Hey Xen I’m jealous of you guys in Calli, you guys can throw a rock and hit a place to train at thats close and good. Damn east coast.

I’d have to agree that many of the top tier guys probably use roids (camps like Hammerhouse are notorious for using them), but personally I think that many of the fighters use them more for their recovery enhancing abilities than performance enhancement. Not that none use them to increase performance.

As far as strength goes. Why is everybody making this out to be like strength and technique are mutually exclusive? Everyone who is in the upper levels of MMA trains their techniques often. True, some spend more time on them than others. But, anyone who tells you that technique isn’t important is B.S.ing you.

However, just because one realizes that technique is important doesn’t mean that they still shouldn’t work on improving their strength in the gym. Improved strength should in fact, improve technique since maximal strength also improves coordination, kinesthetic awareness, speed, etc…

Just look at the fight between Hughes and Gracie. Now, Gracie has been practicing BJJ since he was a little kid (30+ years) while Hughes has only been praciticing it for maybe half that time if he’s lucky. But, because hughes was so much stronger than Gracie, he man handled Royce in that fight.

That’s in my opinion why the Gracies aren’t at the top of the MMA food chain anymore. Because they refuse to adapt their training and do things like strength training. They’re still under the impression that all one has to do is practice technique and grapple (not that those aren’t important).

That’s just my opinion though.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

I thought it was because no longer was an elite guy. Because before Royce was beaten by Hughes he was given hell by 5’7" 150 pound Tokoro in Japan. I have seen Tokoro up close and he is no powerhouse.

[quote]otoko wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
roc wrote:
Nice post Xen. First off I think roids is so rampant in mma because like any other sport it’s how these guys make their livings, top tier guys anyway, so any edge they can get they will take advantage.

Second a fighter needs to figure out what he need s compared to what he thinks he needs. 400 lbs deadlift or more takedown practice, you get the ideal.

P.S. Hey Xen I’m jealous of you guys in Calli, you guys can throw a rock and hit a place to train at thats close and good. Damn east coast.

I’d have to agree that many of the top tier guys probably use roids (camps like Hammerhouse are notorious for using them), but personally I think that many of the fighters use them more for their recovery enhancing abilities than performance enhancement. Not that none use them to increase performance.

As far as strength goes. Why is everybody making this out to be like strength and technique are mutually exclusive? Everyone who is in the upper levels of MMA trains their techniques often. True, some spend more time on them than others. But, anyone who tells you that technique isn’t important is B.S.ing you.

However, just because one realizes that technique is important doesn’t mean that they still shouldn’t work on improving their strength in the gym. Improved strength should in fact, improve technique since maximal strength also improves coordination, kinesthetic awareness, speed, etc…

Just look at the fight between Hughes and Gracie. Now, Gracie has been practicing BJJ since he was a little kid (30+ years) while Hughes has only been praciticing it for maybe half that time if he’s lucky. But, because hughes was so much stronger than Gracie, he man handled Royce in that fight.

That’s in my opinion why the Gracies aren’t at the top of the MMA food chain anymore. Because they refuse to adapt their training and do things like strength training. They’re still under the impression that all one has to do is practice technique and grapple (not that those aren’t important).

That’s just my opinion though.

Good training,

Sentoguy

I thought it was because no longer was an elite guy. Because before Royce was beaten by Hughes he was given hell by 5’7" 150 pound Tokoro in Japan. I have seen Tokoro up close and he is no powerhouse.
[/quote]

Well I’m not going to argue with you about that. But, the reason I mentioned that was because the original topic of this thread seemed to be whether technique could overcome strength.

From the OP:

Obviously this is an example that doesn’t fit the above statement. Like I said before Royce had been practicing his jiu-jitsu techniques for decades longer than Hughes. But, because Hughes possessed such superior strength, he was able to defeat Royce easily.

And besides, even if you make the argument that Royce lost because he’s “no longer an elite guy”, you have to ask yourself what has changed to make him no longer elite. Has he lost something? Yes, probably strength, and conditioning. Or, have the other guys just surpassed him? Yes once again, in the areas of strength and well roundedness.

So, one can still make the argument that strength played a big role in that fight, even if it wasn’t the sole reason why he lost.

Good training,

Sentoguy

That’s not necessarily true. Hughes is strong and certainly had that advantage, but lets face something here. All great sports stars eventually pass their primes and get old. MJ got old w/ the Wizards, it wasn’t that he didn’t strength train or that some young player schooled him because his technique or anything was better.

MJ was just old. Royce is just past his prime. It was a great prime and he just got beat by a better guy that night. That doesn’t mean strength was the only, or even the biggest factor.

[quote]danew wrote:
That’s not necessarily true. Hughes is strong and certainly had that advantage, but lets face something here. All great sports stars eventually pass their primes and get old. MJ got old w/ the Wizards, it wasn’t that he didn’t strength train or that some young player schooled him because his technique or anything was better.

MJ was just old. Royce is just past his prime. It was a great prime and he just got beat by a better guy that night. That doesn’t mean strength was the only, or even the biggest factor.[/quote]

Perhaps, and I’m not debating that Royce was/is past his prime. But the guy was only 40 years old in that fight. Hardly over the hill. Look at Couture, he’s over forty and just whooped on big Timmay.

Of course Couture is an exception, and yes it’s true that athletic performance tends to decline after a certain point. But, why does it decline? Well, one of the reasons is due to a loss of maximal strength. However, there doesn’t tend to be much of a noticeable loss until much later than 40 if the athlete is still diligently strength training. Is there some? Yes. But is the a huge decline? No.

MJ chose to retire (for the third time) in the end because he realized that he had already done what he set out to do in the NBA. He had already racked up 6 championships and basically cemented his place in the history books. But, with the wizards he was not surrounded by guys like Scottie Pippin, Kukoc, Grant, etc…, he didn’t have Phil Jackson running the show, and he was beginning to realize that the game was changing. I think he basically decided that he had had enough. I don’t think he retired because he felt he could no longer play up to his level. He could have easily gone to a team with championship potential and won at least one more championship if he had wanted to.

And again, I stated that I realize that strength wasn’t the only reason why Royce may have lost that fight. But, I will say that it was a big reason.

Sentoguy

I agree with you Sento that the MMA game has changed dramatically in the past ten years. I think we will not see a royce gracie type of guy just rolling over guys becasue of his skill, i.e. him knowing BJJ more better then everyone else.

I think the way guys are training now is much better then before, just look at how well rounded fighters are now days.

Hey Brunto, I feel your pain about driving to train. I use to drive 1 hour and sometimes a little more too to get to class. Best of luck.

I agree with the previous post… I do feel way more comfortable in a Jiu-jitsu match as opposed to a karate or point fighting… have to relax to throw kicks and not telegraph… hard to be lose when in from of an attacker… the stand-up in a grappling match is much more relaxing not anticipating strikes or kicks but the tie up and takedown

Non-Athlete is about to post:

Ok, strength for fighters. You know how you have “farm boy” strong or “I got a job” strong or better yet, “You wrecked my truck and I’m your father” stronger.

The stuff I just mentioned, you simply can’t simulate some of that with deadlifts and oly lifts. Like a guy who’s a monster in the weight room meets up with a guy who actually grapples human beings for a living.

Sure, I push 400 on bench, but the other faces an opponent that’s just as strong as he is, fights back, has a brain, and if it comes to it, adrenaline rush kicks in. Barbell don’t fight back.

Guess what I’m saying is this:

Technique is more important and you build the proper strength for your sport by doing your sport aka “Grappling, wrestling, and fighting people”.

But, because hughes was so much stronger than Gracie, he man handled Royce in that fight.

That was superior wrestling and weight advantage. Plus you can’t JUST come in knowing years upon years of jiujitsu, SOME standup and SOME legit wrestling and expect to beat someone who is one of the most well rounded fighters in the game

AND

who walked in the ring quite a bit heavier than you.

Sure strength counted, but not nearly as much as everyone just assumes.

i think the above is a bad example. I agree with you to an extent,but Florian/Sherk might have been a better example.

That was close in everything except AGAIN

wrestling and size.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
But, because hughes was so much stronger than Gracie, he man handled Royce in that fight.

That was superior wrestling and weight advantage. Plus you can’t JUST come in knowing years upon years of jiujitsu, SOME standup and SOME legit wrestling and expect to beat someone who is one of the most well rounded fighters in the game

AND

who walked in the ring quite a bit heavier than you.

Sure strength counted, but not nearly as much as everyone just assumes.

i think the above is a bad example. I agree with you to an extent,but Florian/Sherk might have been a better example.

That was close in everything except AGAIN

wrestling and size.

[/quote]

Hi Xen,

I agree with you, strength was not the only factor why Hughes won that fight. I have said several times that I know that. I still believe that it played a big part in the victory though.

Is Hughes a superior wrestler? Yes, no doubt. Was he heavier that Gracie in that fight? Well, it’s really impossible to say for sure, but I wouldn’t doubt that he was. But, for someone who had half the amount of grappling experience, he sure made Royce look like an amatuer. So, in this case, the fact that Royce had “superior” jiu-jitsu skills was of absolutely no benefit for countering Hughes size and strength advantage.

And although I agree that Hughes is a much better striker, striking really didn’t have that much of an impact on that fights outcome.

Good training,

Sentoguy