All true, but as I said the typical Bruce Lee fan was infatuated with what he saw on the silver screen. In other words, actions spoke louder than words. And as I have also said that is the reason that Karate school proliferated because of Lee's movies. There was a gigantic influx of new students all very happy to be promoted through the system and wear various colored belts on the way up. None of that of course is occurring because of the huge success of the UFC and other lesser organizations. Therefore, we have two exact opposite occurrences which are in fact creating exact opposite outcomes.
I totally agree, and that is the main reason that the myth of the unconquerable black belt was not busted as it was with MMA.
Glad we agree on this.
You are spot on with that information.
LOL..so true. I can recall my Sensei telling our class how easy it would be for him or anyone who knows these "lethal techniques" to kill a man with one blow. At the time I was on the High School wrestling team and was even then pondering how my master would handle a double leg takedown. Don't get me wrong I was not being prolific. I knew he would win I just didn't know which lethal blow he would use --LOL
I never faulted them for this. My point was that most of the impressionable members of the many Dojo's did not get to see any realistic fight scenario's played out. Therefore, they will still mesmerized by the lone stand-up martial artist. Certainly not the fault of Wallace and the others. But nonetheless it did not urge any of the Karateka to throw their belts off and think "no need for these belts there are many forms of fighting that seem just as good as what we're doing." As I said that didn't even begin to happen until MMA came into popularity. And even now as we both know belts are still quite popular. But as I also said many of the successful Dojo's are bringing in grapplers, boxers etc.
Yes, I recall that very well. This caused me to look forward to the Antonio Inoki Muhammed Ali match with great anticipation. Unfortunately, the match (as you know) turned out to be a large disappointment as neither man really wanted to engage the other and used the rules to avoid such engagement.
Anyway, even though Lewis was aware of takedowns and could when pushed perform them does not mean that the general Karate/martial arts population at the time was aware, or even cared.
Saw it and loved it! But again, simply because it was one semi-legitimate MMA match at the time does not mean that the many practitioners of the Asian martial arts were seeing it, believing it, or even caring that it took place. It was looked at as an oddity. And as you know some things have to literally be pounded into the heads of people before they actually believe it. In fact, believe it or not, there are still some TMA who claim that the UFC and the many other organizations are offering up fake fights. I know...I know...incredible but people being who they are do not admit to the truth so readily especially if it may cause them to lose face (so they think), or lose money. Certainly, one 1963 MMA match was not to turn the tide regarding belt rankings and how the TMA looked at a real fight.
True, but let's not miss the main point which is the many, many MMA fights from the year 1993 to today certainly has made a huge impression the typical TMA. 22 straight years of blended MMA is far more persuasive than one or two events over a period of years back in the day. The impression has now been made and really there can't be any argument about that aspect. The only question that remains is how this will ultimately effect the belt system. There are many schools already that have dropped the belt system and included grappling as you know. The only question that remains is will there be any sort of belt system 20 years from now.
No one can argue there are simply less strictly stand up fighters in martial arts than there were back in 1992.
I certainly agree, but let's not get off the track the topic is not "were the best Karteka at the time aware that boxing strikes were superior to karate strikes." The topic is how much impact did any of that have on changing the operation of the typical Asian martial arts studio...to the point where belts would be dropped. Of course the answer, as you know, to that question is pretty easy. The top guys training with and using boxing strikes in their stand-up full contact karate matches had zero impact on the overwhelming majority of Dojo's across the country. And certainly no comparison as to the impact that the current MMA craze has had on those same Dojo's.
Once again, you are veering off the main topic. As a side note I have great respect for both Thai boxing as well as Karate. But as we both know each is limited by the confines of the art. In other words, it is not complete without grapping etc. Back to the topic at hand...
We agree again.
Yes, but again that is a Jiu-Jitsu system passed on to the Gracie's by one particular Japanese fighter who travelled to Brazil. Of course they still have the belt system. In other words they are actually traditional as well...Interesting, while they popped the bubble on the typical Asian martial arts school it was more of an attitude that grappling was better than standing. But as it developed the realization has occurred. "Hey...we need both to actually be good." So much so that Royce took up kickboxing to try to remain relevant. It didn't work for him but that's another topic.
I totally agree, the effectiveness of any art is not related to the fact that one does or does not wear a belt. You have given good examples. However, once again I remind you that I was speculating about the future 20 years from now. It took a good deal of time for the TMA to stand up (pun intended) and actually take notice that their lethal techniques were not so lethal in an MMA match. How much longer will it take them to realize that a belt, while certainly not a bad idea, and one that has only been around for 120 years or so, is really not necessary to one's advancement in any given martial art be it traditional, from Asia, or those rooted in the US like boxing and wrestling.
The answer is I have no idea and neither do you. But it is fun to speculate. And I do enjoy the debate that we have had. There are not many people (perhaps you and maybe three, or four others on this site) that I can have such an exchange with whose opinion I respect.
I thank you for the discussion.