^
In case anyone wants the background. I have’t read it yet.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
this stops at 100k I am guessing you know why [/quote]
So… Washington has more people than before making more money than they did before, and this is supposed to prove what then?
First off, we don’t if this is Washington State, or D.C. Secondly, it is a random graphic with little sourcing to actually see where the number came form. Third it makes no mention of population changes.
Given the downward trend in labor participation rates, one could assume that this graphic you posted not only shows overall net growth (very nice upward mobility to boot) but a change in overall demographics that forces the hand of the wage scale.
In other words, this graphic proves our point at best, and is useless at worst.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
this stops at 100k I am guessing you know why [/quote]
lol, looking at it again, I’m not sure if you even think about things before you post it.
This is a 20 year gap. That means the people in the middle income brackets in 1989 would have 20 years more experience and will have either moved up in brackets or retired (hence moving down to the low wage brackets) depending on age in 1989.
It also shows an exponential growth in high paying jobs in the area, and a healthy percent of the population (more, by far than any other percent) making 100k or more.
Depending on demographics & cost of living, this chart is great news lol.
Not to mention it’s Washington D.C where cost of living is so freaking high. The same thing could be said about NY, Chicago, and any other super-mega city. There will be more high paying jobs b/c that’s where high paying jobs are.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I don’t know what fuckin:) Planet you and beans grew up on but you two should go back and get a room
[/quote]
We live on the planet where facts and circumstances actually dictate that what we have said is true.
Quite like your continued chosen ignorance on taxation, you’ll ignore the links and charts posted above. [/quote]
You live in a world that that skews reality ,looses it in a fog of numbers and deductions , just like the tax code
[/quote]
So you will ignore the fact that the average wages have increased?[/quote]
According to CountingBeans the median increase in income is 89%. According to you inflation over the same period of time has been 113%. The average worker is clearly worse off.
Now take into account that necessities (shelter, utilities, healthcare, education) have gone up significantly faster than general inflation and you will see the average American is way worse off. At least consumer electronics are cheaper and food has been fairly stable.
The median American is having their face rubbed in the dirt because they don’t have a lot of bargaining power. The three main causes are NIMBYs, outsourcing externalities, and lack of a proper social safety net/basic income.
It is extremely scary that my household is in the top 10% of income earners in the US. Because there is no way I am harder working than 90% of Americans. No way.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I don’t know what fuckin:) Planet you and beans grew up on but you two should go back and get a room
[/quote]
We live on the planet where facts and circumstances actually dictate that what we have said is true.
Quite like your continued chosen ignorance on taxation, you’ll ignore the links and charts posted above. [/quote]
You live in a world that that skews reality ,looses it in a fog of numbers and deductions , just like the tax code
[/quote]
So you will ignore the fact that the average wages have increased?[/quote]
According to CountingBeans the median increase in income is 89%. According to you inflation over the same period of time has been 113%. The average worker is clearly worse off.
Now take into account that necessities (shelter, utilities, healthcare, education) have gone up significantly faster than general inflation and you will see the average American is way worse off. At least consumer electronics are cheaper and food has been fairly stable.
The median American is having their face rubbed in the dirt because they don’t have a lot of bargaining power. The three main causes are NIMBYs, outsourcing externalities, and lack of a proper social safety net/basic income.
It is extremely scary that my household is in the top 10% of income earners in the US. Because there is no way I am harder working than 90% of Americans. No way.[/quote]
It’s not about how hard you work, it’s about the value your work brings.
And definition of “hard work” is not exactly objective.
And yesterday, I did a calculation of the Cost of Employees for Employers per Hour Worked from the BLS. Cost of employees includes salaries, benefits, etc. It’s CASH out the door, not phantom costs.
From 2004-2013, the cost increased about 25.5% from something like $25/hour to like $31-32/hour…I can’t remember exactly.
I then calculated inflation over the same period by compounding the average inflation rate over the time period and came to about 26.5%.
Not exactly a huge difference. Again, you may not see a big increase in pay, but the government requires businesses to spend a lot more outside of pay than before.
It’s why all the companies I work for now give me a report each year that lists my TRUE compensation.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
According to CountingBeans the median increase in income is 89%. According to you inflation over the same period of time has been 113%. The average worker is clearly worse off. [/quote]
Nope. My figures were off the AWI index, which builds on itself every year, therefor factors in inflation.
RE prices are going to vary area to area. You can’t just toss the blanket statement out that “shelter” is more expensive.
Houses I looked at 10 years ago are selling for the same or less today in some places.
You can blame government for utilities and education.
On top fo the fact “general inflation” factors all those things in, so they increase “general inflation” already.
Please, explain.
What? Where?
Where in this country is this the case?
So you’re overpaid. If this is such a “scary” deal to you, quit or contribute a higher portion to charity.
I don’t have the same problem you do. I earn the money I make.
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
It’s not about how hard you work, it’s about the value your work brings.
[/quote]
It isn’t even about the value your work brings. It is about an oversupply of low skilled and semi-skilled labor, an abundance of fairly desperate people, and structural problems which prevent good old fashioned competition.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
Because there is no way I am harder working than 90% of Americans. No way.[/quote]
Nobody gets paid because of how “hard” he works. I can go in my backyard and run sprints, swing a sledgehammer, and do burpees all day, but I won’t earn any money by doing so, despite physically working “harder” than probably anybody around. You are paid based on your value to others.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]phaethon wrote:
According to CountingBeans the median increase in income is 89%. According to you inflation over the same period of time has been 113%. The average worker is clearly worse off. [/quote]
Nope. My figures were off the AWI index, which builds on itself every year, therefor factors in inflation.
[/quote]
Unfortunately the link is down.
Unadjusted median income in 1985 was ~$24k/household. After adjusting for inflation of 113% that is ~$51k/household. If we had 89% of actual wage growth on top of that then median household income would be around $97k/household. Which it certainly isn’t.
Yes and general inflation is lower because it also factors in many luxury items that have significantly decreased in price. So great no fucking housing but at least the poor can afford iphones.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Please, explain.
[/quote]
A lot of the issues with housing costs in all the cities I have lived in are due to zoning laws stopping apartment complexes from being built.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
What? Where?
Where in this country is this the case?
[/quote]
You tell me where I can quit my job and not be in a world of hurt. I’m talking about a proper safety net which would introduce a little bit of fairness into the market.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
So you’re overpaid. If this is such a “scary” deal to you, quit or contribute a higher portion to charity.
I don’t have the same problem you do. I earn the money I make.
[/quote]
Ah the entitlement attitude.
If I recall correctly you work in an incredibly protected market that is propped up by the government (accounting right?). Of course everyone sucking on the government teat thinks they earn the money they make. Unlike you I work in the free market.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
this stops at 100k I am guessing you know why [/quote]
So… Washington has more people than before making more money than they did before, and this is supposed to prove what then?
First off, we don’t if this is Washington State, or D.C. Secondly, it is a random graphic with little sourcing to actually see where the number came form. Third it makes no mention of population changes.
Given the downward trend in labor participation rates, one could assume that this graphic you posted not only shows overall net growth (very nice upward mobility to boot) but a change in overall demographics that forces the hand of the wage scale.
In other words, this graphic proves our point at best, and is useless at worst. [/quote]
Fourth and finally, this was a 2010 graph in the middle of the recession. Newer graph should be at least 2012 at the “end” of the recession for comparison’s sake.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I don’t know what fuckin:) Planet you and beans grew up on but you two should go back and get a room
[/quote]
We live on the planet where facts and circumstances actually dictate that what we have said is true.
Quite like your continued chosen ignorance on taxation, you’ll ignore the links and charts posted above. [/quote]
You live in a world that that skews reality ,looses it in a fog of numbers and deductions , just like the tax code
[/quote]
So you will ignore the fact that the average wages have increased?[/quote]
According to CountingBeans the median increase in income is 89%. According to you inflation over the same period of time has been 113%. The average worker is clearly worse off. [/quote]
It’s worth noting that countingbeans and I used two different time spans. His was from 1990-2012, mine was 5 years earlier. Plugging in the numbers from 1990 yields an inflation rate of 75.7%, and an increase in median income of 89%. So the median household is actually growing against inflation over bean’s time period.
In my time period of 1985-2012 inflation grew 113.4% and median income grew 115.4%. Again it out paces inflation.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]phaethon wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I don’t know what fuckin:) Planet you and beans grew up on but you two should go back and get a room
[/quote]
We live on the planet where facts and circumstances actually dictate that what we have said is true.
Quite like your continued chosen ignorance on taxation, you’ll ignore the links and charts posted above. [/quote]
You live in a world that that skews reality ,looses it in a fog of numbers and deductions , just like the tax code
[/quote]
So you will ignore the fact that the average wages have increased?[/quote]
According to CountingBeans the median increase in income is 89%. According to you inflation over the same period of time has been 113%. The average worker is clearly worse off. [/quote]
It’s worth noting that countingbeans and I used two different time spans. His was from 1990-2012, mine was 5 years earlier. Plugging in the numbers from 1990 yields an inflation rate of 75.7%, and an increase in median income of 89%. So the median household is actually growing against inflation over bean’s time period.
In my time period of 1985-2012 inflation grew 113.4% and median income grew 115.4%. Again it out paces inflation.[/quote]
And is further confirmed by what I wrote about employer cost of employee per hour increase as compared to inflation. Pretty much the same.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]phaethon wrote:
According to CountingBeans the median increase in income is 89%. According to you inflation over the same period of time has been 113%. The average worker is clearly worse off. [/quote]
Nope. My figures were off the AWI index, which builds on itself every year, therefor factors in inflation.
[/quote]
Unfortunately the link is down.
Unadjusted median income in 1985 was ~$24k/household. After adjusting for inflation of 113% that is ~$51k/household. If we had 89% of actual wage growth on top of that then median household income would be around $97k/household. Which it certainly isn’t.[/quote]
Unadjusted median household income was 22.1k, not 24.
The link to AWI is here: National Average Wage Index
[quote]phaethon wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
It’s not about how hard you work, it’s about the value your work brings.
[/quote]
It isn’t even about the value your work brings. It is about an oversupply of low skilled and semi-skilled labor, an abundance of fairly desperate people, and structural problems which prevent good old fashioned competition.[/quote]
With all the opportunities to become skilled labor and a huge need for skilled labor, what’s the excuse? And when I say skilled, I’m talking everything from Accountants to Pipe Welders. There is a HUGE supply gap.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
Unadjusted median income in 1985 was ~$24k/household. After adjusting for inflation of 113% that is ~$51k/household. If we had 89% of actual wage growth on top of that then median household income would be around $97k/household. Which it certainly isn’t.[/quote]
Again, the figures I used are built upon the year prior’s. So therefor it factors in cost of living increases in wages.
Wages will always be behind inflation, as wages are reactionary, for a short period, on average.
I wasn’t aware there was a housing shortage. Where? Certainly isn’t one here.
[quote]
A lot of the issues with housing costs in all the cities I have lived in are due to zoning laws stopping apartment complexes from being built.[/quote]
There is a lot that goes into housing costs beyond zoning laws, but yes, government restriction does play a significant factor.
[quote]
You tell me where I can quit my job and not be in a world of hurt. I’m talking about a proper safety net which would introduce a little bit of fairness into the market.[/quote]
I’m flabbergasted this comes in your post before you accuse me of entitlement attitude.
If you quit your job, and don’t have another that is on you, not anyone else to provide for you. Sorry.
Being able to quit and sit on your ass and let the government (ie: working taxpayers) take care of you isn’t fairness, in fact it is the opposite.
[quote]
Ah the entitlement attitude.[/quote]
You obviously have zero comprehension what the phrase means.
lol, you have no idea what my job entails.
Compliance isn’t, not even close, to the only thing I do.
Just lol.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
So do I. And people like me make sure your paycheck clears, lol.
Just stop with this, you’re embarrassing yourself.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]phaethon wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I don’t know what fuckin:) Planet you and beans grew up on but you two should go back and get a room
[/quote]
We live on the planet where facts and circumstances actually dictate that what we have said is true.
Quite like your continued chosen ignorance on taxation, you’ll ignore the links and charts posted above. [/quote]
You live in a world that that skews reality ,looses it in a fog of numbers and deductions , just like the tax code
[/quote]
So you will ignore the fact that the average wages have increased?[/quote]
According to CountingBeans the median increase in income is 89%. According to you inflation over the same period of time has been 113%. The average worker is clearly worse off. [/quote]
It’s worth noting that countingbeans and I used two different time spans. His was from 1990-2012, mine was 5 years earlier. Plugging in the numbers from 1990 yields an inflation rate of 75.7%, and an increase in median income of 89%. So the median household is actually growing against inflation over bean’s time period.
In my time period of 1985-2012 inflation grew 113.4% and median income grew 115.4%. Again it out paces inflation.[/quote]
Fair enough. My mistake. Like I said I can’t access his link (dns lookup failing). Its still not great. Increases in productivity over the last 25 years have been massive (2-3x even at the low end of the scale). Yet median income is only barely keeping up with inflation.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
Fair enough. My mistake. Like I said I can’t access his link (dns lookup failing). Its still not great. Increases in productivity over the last 25 years have been massive (2-3x even at the low end of the scale). Yet median income is only barely keeping up with inflation.[/quote]
I posted another link just above here, directly to the .gov site so you should be able to look it up just fine. Works for me at least.
First, you haven’t sourced your “2-3x low end productivity increase” and secondly, how much automation is there in 2012 compared to 1985 or 1990? This makes a world of difference.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
Fair enough. My mistake. Like I said I can’t access his link (dns lookup failing). Its still not great. Increases in productivity over the last 25 years have been massive (2-3x even at the low end of the scale). Yet median income is only barely keeping up with inflation.[/quote]
But what you don’t understand is it doesn’t even matter!
Let’s say for arguments sake, wages were WAY behind inflation. So now you have a ton of people who can’t afford anything at the current prices. So what happens? Either all businesses close down and file chapter 11, or they lower prices and the economy fixes itself.
You want to know one of the REAL problems here? Debt spending, and not necessarily by the government. By individuals. The reasons prices stay so high for things is b/c people buy what they truly can’t afford. Everyone feels entitled to cable, cell phones, nice cars, nice houses, and all these other luxuries so they are willing to go in debt for them.
If people would truly live within their means, you’d see a huge drop in prices.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
It isn’t even about the value your work brings. It is about an oversupply of low skilled and semi-skilled labor, [/quote]
Congratulations for completely contradicting yourself.