T Nation

Minimum Cycle for Big Gains, Tren-Test?

Hello. Is a one time Tren-Test E 8 week or 12 week cycle enough for permanent mass and strength gainz? Will I need more cycles?

You will always need more cycles. It part of the game…


Well a one-time cycle is like Santa Clause, so you can forget that notion straight away.

But to answer your question more generally, assuming one could be the mythical creature who cycles once, the amount of permanence you gain is largely dependent on how you eat and train post cycle. Very few people can add and keep xLBS of muscle from a cycle if they don’t continue to put in the work. What needs to be done after a cycle and pct are completed is basically a further building—at natty levels—that you is added to the overall amount you already had. Meaning if you had 100lbs of actual muscle pre cycle, 112 at cycle end, then 107 after pct, you’d need to make that 107 keep going up. Basically you build a buffer so that when you start cutting (which is an inevitable necessity as you age) you’re not losing any muscle that is over and above your original gain. If you stay at that 107 number for six months then start cutting you’ll start to drop, meaning you’re eating into those gains.

I’ll do a dumb analogy because that’s what I’m good at. You go to a casino with $1,000 and somehow start winning. After an hour you’re up to $1,500. You’re having fun. Another hour goes by and now it’s $1,300. You decide to walk away. Smart. You invest that money into something boring and make a little interest in the meantime. But a few months later you go back, this time with only the $300 you won plus another $20 you gained in additional interest. You’re playing with house money. If you lose it all then you’re back where you started, but no worse off.


WTF Santa brings you Tren and Test? My stupid Santa only gives me socks and unders.

For an 8 week cycle I would use test p over test e.

Yeah bro, welcome to the North Swole.


Yeah, you wil always need more cycles.

You might require more cycles as it is a part of the game.

Permanent changes in muscular morphology (muscle fibre amount, diameter etc) will occur with one cycle, and theoretically if you ran a singular cycle and managed to continually train/diet like a beast post cycle (and you recover quickly and optimally) you’d look a lot better in a shorter period of time comparatively if you had not ran gear, this is… up to a certain point.

With natty T levels comes a certain genetic set point (VERY hard to hit naturally, easier to hit with gear… but still not particularly easy), any amount of muscular mass attained beyond said set point won’t be be possible to maintain with physiologic amounts of androgens (unless gh/slim/igf-1 is in the mix, however that entails altering natural physiology). While you’re proportions may permanently differ (esp within regard to muscles with higher concentrations of AR, such as traps, shoulders, triceps etc) that genetic set point will still bar you from being able to progress past a certain point

Then if I train like a beast🐺 during and post-cycle, how long would it take to reach the natty maximum?
Would another cycle be the final blow or would I need a 3rd one?

Permanent mass from first cycle… Yur crazy bro I like u but yur crazy… Not gonna happen… What will happen is if yur not a total turd you will have an excellent cycle…yur body will put on 20-30lbs of meat and youll be googling non stop for next cycle so hard u sprain yur fingers… Real hard going back to being clark kent once you put on supermans cape bruh
But with good diet and lifting you can keep most of it…


Exactly, however to actually stick to the “one cycle only” mentality requires an immense amount of self control. I’d never be a able to stick to it, and probably never will and hence simply use super low dosages to mitigate the chances of me causing serious long term damage (which will occur regardless, however the extent of said damage can be mitigated)

For instance my current “blast” merely consists of trying dbol at 20mg for 4 wks with 150mg, that’s it… However I know for a CERTAINTY that if I don’t suffer hepatic/renal failure or die suddenly from an unprecedented cardiac arrhythmia induced by anabolic steroids (or SSRI induced long QT syndrome etc) that I’ll do it again… and again and again etc… probably not orals for a while, but you get my drift.

Kinda… Thats alot of science for a barbarian like me…What is SSRI QT syndrome?
Im a fan of mild cycles too but I push it just close enough… I might be wrong but I think if your diet and training is good 2 cycles per year isnt horrible as long as your not going crazy with the compounds… 4 sure limit orals and I think long term you are fine. Probably call it quits at 50 and just do Test only blasts.

QT interval is an electrocardiographic measurement used to assess a certain electrical property of the heart. In science mumbo jumbo bullshit it’s the time between the start of the QRS complex and the end of the T wave on the electrocardiogram (each representing ventricular depolarisation and repolarisation) so… the time between those two. If the time is too heavily spaced apart, it can facilitate dangerous, potentially fatal cardiac dysrhythmia (look up Torasdes De Pointes).

SSRI use is a known risk factor for inducing long QT syndrome, certain SSRI’s appear to elevate the risk somewhat more than others, the overall risk is very low. The issue is typically congenital or drug induced… or induced via electrolyte imbalance

That’s the problem, we don’t have enough data to stipulate what is or isn’t okay, furthermore genetic factors induce a large variety of potential complications. Running one cycle with congenital dilated cardiomyopathy may be grounds for sudden cardiac death, while Louie Simmons has been using for decades and decades

I think this is the thing. Everyone needs to accept that its Russian roulette with your body when you start steroids. The only thing you wait for is when its your turn for the shit to hit the fan.

I know guys whose body completely shuts down and fails from a simple 500mg test/week cycle. I also know people who are pushing the dosages and multiple compounds and are absolutely fine.

That’s how it is.

ALSO: very curious about how much those guys are running over at Westwide. They must be running grams and grams of stuff.

By shut down are you talking about heart failure after a single cycle or simply not recovering regarding adequate endocrine parameters

By shutdown I mean - insane water retention, blood pressure spikes to holy hell, blood markers are shat to shit, mental changes, complete loss of sex drive, heart problems. Just on a simple test cycle. Its like their body completely flips out.

Can you imagine that same person then moving onto something like tren?

potentially renal failure induced by hypertensive crisis or something of a similar level of significance (tren)

The reality is, if your body cant cope with simple test, your fucked and this game isn’t for you.

That’s what I think anyways.