Hey lixy, while we’re on the topic, (or not), You wouldn’t happen to be involved in the Iranian Cyber Army, would you?
The way I see it, having a big military is kind of like being jacked. Rarely anyone will fuck with you so you don’t have to use your strength. Everyone knows it’s the little weak guy that gets fucked with. One of the reason nobody has messed with out allies either. Big dude’s got their back.
[quote]Valor wrote:
[quote]jawara wrote:
I;l put it into a different poin of view. Lets say your little brother gets a good paying job after school in a different part of town. He takes the school bus and then rides his skatebord a couple blocks. On the way, a neighborhood bully decides that it;s HIS sidewalk and and beats the sht out of your brother, what woud you do? [/quote]
Well…first I’d contact the international agencys that claim to own that area. I’d also contact whatever national government was in charge. I’d ask both to intercede on my brother’s behalf. While waiting for them to send troops and aid (because after all, we’re going to need to feed and educate this bully) I would contact any Non Government Orginzations that I could to attempt to get them to also act on my brother’s behalf. Lastly I would contact the local milita and police forces, though I doubt they would act as they have clearly allowed this bully to operate and most likely work mwith him. Failing that I would attempt to pass endless laws and resolutions and contact the press.
I expect I could get some sort of action in about 6 to 12 months at a cost of several hundred millions.[/quote]
This is the context in which I was using my examle First Barbary War - Wikipedia
It was in reference too the comment I made about the founding of the US Navy and Marine Corps. The only difference is that we were the ones being bullied.
[quote]elano wrote:
The way I see it, having a big military is kind of like being jacked. Rarely anyone will fuck with you so you don’t have to use your strength. Everyone knows it’s the little weak guy that gets fucked with. One of the reason nobody has messed with out allies either. Big dude’s got their back. [/quote]
You couldn’t have said it any better. I just don’t understand why people have such a big problem with us standing up for ourselves.
Please Chushin, enlighten me about my nonsensical statements, Im glad to see you have so much to say on the issue. Its pretty simple, save money, we are not the worlds police, focus more on being economically competitive than hypoctically forceful.
Jr67: I am far from a “hippy”, proud gun owner, avid hunter and supporter of the constitution. But to you I might as well be a birkenstock wearing Yale grad right? Im sure the founders of our country were all about foreign wars? Excuse the sarcasm in my post I dont have anything against you. But please dont stereotype me.
I am not arguing self preservation at all. I feel that our current actions are detrimental to that fact. Listen, I believe in national defense…the concept of which is obviously the subject of debate. Since a pretty piss poor analogy was posted, Ill counteract with one of the same level. Suppose you are in a bar, you see dudes eyeing you up and perhaps whispering some shit about you. Do you go over there and punch them in the face, or do you continue to drink and if they try to do something then throw down.
Valor: Im glad you think im a moron, that does alot to consolidate your arguments, im sure you punch people in the throat on a regular basis right tough guy? Yes, nobody could forsee the consequences, how about realize that actions do have consequences. Research the restance a little more and realize that we used the afghanis as pawns. They eventually realized this and were obviously upset. Lets give those iraqis freedom! because we dont support dictatorsat all? I guess people couldnt forsee hitler rising to power and ww2 either right? Not like extreme economic sanctions that fostered racism and hate werent warned against…oh wait. But you dont really understand economics or politics do you?
Or how about we learn from history and our great record of dealing with insurgencies, ie vietnam. Which was another nice war where people died under false pretenses (see Gulf Of Tonkin Incident). But we were supporting democracy right? The south vietnamese government … most likely more corrupt than the North Vietnamese government with the same human rights record. Hmm… similar to Karzais election right?
So going back to the little brother getting beat up example. Imagine you are living in a country side, your brother gets killed by a predator drone. Or errant missle strike. Well, the rest of your family signs up to fight the people that did it. IE we are creating more insurgents by our flawed foreign policy. Or how about Iran and N. Korea with nuclear weapons, im sure they arent as dangerous as little afghanistan and saddam hussiens iraq. Once again, more hypocrisy. So i suggest you do a little more research.
China is way behind us militarily but they will defeat this country economically, which is the real threat. And once again, if you are blowing trillions on wars, the economy becomes shit. We may win the battles, but we will surely lose the economic war with this stupidity. I believe in a strong military, but its the way its being used.
SEE: Roman empire and over expansion…now go ahead and flame away
[quote]jawara wrote:
[quote]elano wrote:
The way I see it, having a big military is kind of like being jacked. Rarely anyone will fuck with you so you don’t have to use your strength. Everyone knows it’s the little weak guy that gets fucked with. One of the reason nobody has messed with out allies either. Big dude’s got their back. [/quote]
You couldn’t have said it any better. I just don’t understand why people have such a big problem with us standing up for ourselves.[/quote]
Because we are not standing up for ourselves. Our military is used for plunder. It’s OTHER people standing up for themselves that we have a problem with.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
[ Our military is used for plunder. [/quote]
Not neccessarily.
Why is it OUR military which is wrong?
In the other thread you said:
“it’s that the rich and powerful will not tolerate anything that threatens their privilege if there’s anything they can do about it. So of course they had a military”
and we should be glad we don’t speak German, cause they whipped the German’s ass.
You do know they used their military from 1945-1991 for global plunder?
Were the Russians right in doing what they did?
Why if we use war to “spread freedom and democracy” it’s considered wrong.
Yet if the Russians, Chinese, Vietmanese, ect use war to “liberate the working class” it is somehow noble.
It’s a fact the colonial period in Africa really messed things up, yet the years under Communist domination did not provide a shining example of uthopia.
Far from it.
[quote]666Rich wrote:
So going back to the little brother getting beat up example. Imagine you are living in a country side, your brother gets killed by a predator drone. Or errant missle strike. Well, the rest of your family signs up to fight the people that did it. IE we are creating more insurgents by our flawed foreign policy. Or how about Iran and N. Korea with nuclear weapons, im sure they arent as dangerous as little afghanistan and saddam hussiens iraq. Once again, more hypocrisy. So i suggest you do a little more research.[quote]
First, I used the little brother example because the bully was infringe on little brother right to earn a living. I don’t see a problem with someone trying to earn a living or defending that same right. I f you want to call our foreign policy flawed, thats fine but lets look into why we have been at war with these for the past what, 300 odd years? Do you know why Marines got the name Leatherneck? Or read the first line of the first line of the Marine Corps song "From the halls of Motezuma, to the shores of Tripoli… And in regards to our foreign policy in the Middle East, whats wrong with it?At the time that this current war on terror started Iran and North Korea werent that much of a treat. Afghanistan and Iraq were playing a more active role in global terror so we went after them.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
[quote]jawara wrote:
[quote]elano wrote:
The way I see it, having a big military is kind of like being jacked. Rarely anyone will fuck with you so you don’t have to use your strength. Everyone knows it’s the little weak guy that gets fucked with. One of the reason nobody has messed with out allies either. Big dude’s got their back. [/quote]
You couldn’t have said it any better. I just don’t understand why people have such a big problem with us standing up for ourselves.[/quote]
Because we are not standing up for ourselves. Our military is used for plunder. It’s OTHER people standing up for themselves that we have a problem with.
[/quote]
Who have we plundered?
[quote]jawara wrote:
[quote]666Rich wrote:
So going back to the little brother getting beat up example. Imagine you are living in a country side, your brother gets killed by a predator drone. Or errant missle strike. Well, the rest of your family signs up to fight the people that did it. IE we are creating more insurgents by our flawed foreign policy. Or how about Iran and N. Korea with nuclear weapons, im sure they arent as dangerous as little afghanistan and saddam hussiens iraq. Once again, more hypocrisy. So i suggest you do a little more research.[quote]
First, I used the little brother example because the bully was infringe on little brother right to earn a living. I don’t see a problem with someone trying to earn a living or defending that same right. I f you want to call our foreign policy flawed, thats fine but lets look into why we have been at war with these for the past what, 300 odd years? Do you know why Marines got the name Leatherneck? Or read the first line of the first line of the Marine Corps song "From the halls of Motezuma, to the shores of Tripoli… And in regards to our foreign policy in the Middle East, whats wrong with it?At the time that this current war on terror started Iran and North Korea werent that much of a treat. Afghanistan and Iraq were playing a more active role in global terror so we went after them.
[/quote]
Who does see a problem with someone trying to earn a living? Its pretty hard to do when theres wars in your country though, especially when you are trying to bring things to market in a third world country. What do you mean why we have been at war with these? Ok, I see the marine corps song reference to a middle eastern country, in no way does that justify what we are doing/have done.
Well, first, id like to note you did not address any of my other points where I told you what was wrong with our middle eastern foreign policy. But once again, Iraq was an unneccessary war fought under false pretenses similar to a few others which engage in wasteful spending and loss of American lives without a tangible threat to US security and all while our domestic economy suffers…but we really need to bring those Iraqis democracy right?
How about we disregard the term “Iraquis”, as it is a fundamentally flawed result of geographic boundaries imposed by the remanants of European colonialism. This is essentially the problem. The after math of colonialism imposed geographic and thus political boundaries on formeraly nomadic groups of opposising viewpoints. Think of putting rottweilers, pittbulls, beta fish and leapords in a cage…whats going to happen. Iraquis do not see themselves as Iraqi’s before they see themselves as Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish. Our lack of tact in regard to this further exacerbates our failed attempts to democratize under false pretenses.
Similar with Afghanistan is Pushtuns, more kurds, Tajiks, Uzbeks etc. We are trying to centralize government under an illegitimate ruler of a minority ethnicity in a country that would function better with autonomous states where groups governed in more of a coalition. Furthermore the war started as a hunt for Osama bin laden and al queda… this could be done more effectively on a smaller scale…than the once again disasterous budget blow that is afghanistan.
North Korea and Iran were certainly more of a threat than Afghanistan and Iraq ever were. NK has always had one of the largest standing militaries. Now one could say that disproves my point of scaling back the military for the sake of national defense.
I once again point to China, they are essentially using our own methods against us. While we station troops everywhere, China buys farming rights in African countries to feed its growing population and develop agro-tech in sub saharan africa that both countries can profit from. They are doing the same with commodity rights. See, Chinas military, though huge is not stationed around the world. They are defeating us Economically through those aforementioned methods. The best way to defeat our “enemies” is with smart economics “living well”. Global terror is such a convuluted piece of garbage… and it certainly didnt start with the twin towers. I call terror waking up everyday and possibly dying from a landmine while trying to farm your crops from a war that happened before you were even born by a country very far away.
Oh I forgot the brilliant handing of 8 billion dollars of aid to Pakistan to help us fight insurgents… the same country that produces a shit ton of them, funded the Taliban, had bennazier bhuto killed…but because theyre “our friend” (sarcasm) they get our money. Sorry, hard to argue that without depandancy on foreign energy we would not be their for “democracy”. Leave them to themselves, and focus on our own necks.
Here is an article written by an air force lt col. Campaign for Liberty - Reclaim the Republic. Restore the Constitution.
[quote]666Rich wrote:
Please Chushin, enlighten me about my nonsensical statements, Im glad to see you have so much to say on the issue. Its pretty simple, save money, we are not the worlds police, focus more on being economically competitive than hypoctically forceful.
Jr67: I am far from a “hippy”, proud gun owner, avid hunter and supporter of the constitution. But to you I might as well be a birkenstock wearing Yale grad right? Im sure the founders of our country were all about foreign wars? Excuse the sarcasm in my post I dont have anything against you. But please dont stereotype me.
I am not arguing self preservation at all. I feel that our current actions are detrimental to that fact. Listen, I believe in national defense…the concept of which is obviously the subject of debate. Since a pretty piss poor analogy was posted, Ill counteract with one of the same level. Suppose you are in a bar, you see dudes eyeing you up and perhaps whispering some shit about you. Do you go over there and punch them in the face, or do you continue to drink and if they try to do something then throw down.
Valor: Im glad you think im a moron, that does alot to consolidate your arguments, im sure you punch people in the throat on a regular basis right tough guy? Yes, nobody could forsee the consequences, how about realize that actions do have consequences. Research the restance a little more and realize that we used the afghanis as pawns. They eventually realized this and were obviously upset. Lets give those iraqis freedom! because we dont support dictatorsat all? I guess people couldnt forsee hitler rising to power and ww2 either right? Not like extreme economic sanctions that fostered racism and hate werent warned against…oh wait. But you dont really understand economics or politics do you?
Or how about we learn from history and our great record of dealing with insurgencies, ie vietnam. Which was another nice war where people died under false pretenses (see Gulf Of Tonkin Incident). But we were supporting democracy right? The south vietnamese government … most likely more corrupt than the North Vietnamese government with the same human rights record. Hmm… similar to Karzais election right?
So going back to the little brother getting beat up example. Imagine you are living in a country side, your brother gets killed by a predator drone. Or errant missle strike. Well, the rest of your family signs up to fight the people that did it. IE we are creating more insurgents by our flawed foreign policy. Or how about Iran and N. Korea with nuclear weapons, im sure they arent as dangerous as little afghanistan and saddam hussiens iraq. Once again, more hypocrisy. So i suggest you do a little more research.
China is way behind us militarily but they will defeat this country economically, which is the real threat. And once again, if you are blowing trillions on wars, the economy becomes shit. We may win the battles, but we will surely lose the economic war with this stupidity. I believe in a strong military, but its the way its being used.
SEE: Roman empire and over expansion…now go ahead and flame away[/quote]
I have not punched someone outside of training or the line of duty in years. I’d make an exception for you. And did I say anything about giving anyone freedom? How about you let ME construct MY postions? As for your country side argument…I agree. Which is why we should kill every fucking living thing over there.
China is playing a great game right now, no doubt.
[quote]666Rich wrote:
I once again point to China, they are essentially using our own methods against us. While we station troops everywhere, China buys farming rights in African countries to feed its growing population and develop agro-tech in sub saharan africa that both countries can profit from.
They are doing the same with commodity rights. See, Chinas military, though huge is not stationed around the world. They are defeating us Economically through those aforementioned methods. [/quote]
The Chinese opened their country up to greater economic freedom after Tiananmen. Had they not, their government might very well have been toppled. They gave their people SOME freedoms and said “leave the governing to us.”
Hense, if you live in China, you may have a tad more freedoms, but if they tell you to move because they are building a dam across and over your neighborhood you better. If you do not, you will be incarcerated. And if you bitch about this, you can be murdered.
So their system still has a lot to be desired.
The Chinese own the rights to all Canadian mining. I was in Niagara falls when it was going down and read an article on it in a newspaper.
They’re smart. A lot of the Canadian miners had apprehensions about Communist Chinese owning the mines. The Chinese told them nothing will change. Only the ownership.
Anybody from Canada? How’d this turn out? Anyone know?
[quote]666Rich wrote:
[quote]jawara wrote:
[quote]666Rich wrote:
[/quote]
[/quote]
Our problems with the Middle East started because the US was trying to earn a living. Why? Because we aren’t a Muslim nation. Terrorist attacks have been going on for a long time and have intensified since the 60’s. What did we do to make them hate us? You say it’s foregin policy but which part of it?
As a matter of fact I remember seeing Ronald Reagan on TV with a couple of Taliban fighters and he gave a speech about how we were supporting them in their fight against the Russians. So what has America done wrong pre Global War on Terror? If you think invading Iraq was unjustified thats fine, but before you do I want you to count up the number of UN treaty violations Saddam Hussien broke first. You should also look into UNSCOM in Iraq before we invaded. Oh and somthing else about Iraqis. They look out for their tribe first and then the Sunni, Shia, and Kurd thing comes into play. You made me think of a conversation me and terp had over in Iraq. We were talking about establishing a government over there.He said “My people need more time. We never had freedom like this before”. Thats because Saddam and his goons were the government.
Afghanistan had a government too. It was called the Taliban. They ran the whole country based on their brand of Islam. The war did start on a smaller scale but over the long term it hasn’t worked. So we’re ramping it up. I’ll be over in a few months.
North Korea and Iran weren’t sending terrorists out into the world to blow people up. Thats why they weren’t as high up on the list.
We have our military spread all the world because somehow we got tasked with keeping the world safe. Remember when the US Navy SEALs shot those Somali pirates? It wasn’t China who responded. Secondly everytime the US tries to expand businesses in other countries people cry imperialism, racism, and then somthing bout evil white people taking over the world gets thrown in there.
I agree with you on the Pakistan comment. Why are giving terrorists’ money? If we drilled for our own oil, and used nuclear power too we’d hardly be dependant on anyone. Even the French use nuke power.
Oh, I forgot to add about that article you posted. Did anyone bring up the fact that the Army gives out anti depressants like candy? I’ll let you figure out what the side effects are.
KILL! KILL! KILL!
[quote]jawara wrote:
[quote]666Rich wrote:
[quote]jawara wrote:
[quote]666Rich wrote:
[/quote]
[/quote]
Our problems with the Middle East started because the US was trying to earn a living. Why? Because we aren’t a Muslim nation. Terrorist attacks have been going on for a long time and have intensified since the 60’s. What did we do to make them hate us? You say it’s foregin policy but which part of it?
As a matter of fact I remember seeing Ronald Reagan on TV with a couple of Taliban fighters and he gave a speech about how we were supporting them in their fight against the Russians. So what has America done wrong pre Global War on Terror? If you think invading Iraq was unjustified thats fine, but before you do I want you to count up the number of UN treaty violations Saddam Hussien broke first. You should also look into UNSCOM in Iraq before we invaded. Oh and somthing else about Iraqis. They look out for their tribe first and then the Sunni, Shia, and Kurd thing comes into play. You made me think of a conversation me and terp had over in Iraq. We were talking about establishing a government over there.He said “My people need more time. We never had freedom like this before”. Thats because Saddam and his goons were the government.
Afghanistan had a government too. It was called the Taliban. They ran the whole country based on their brand of Islam. The war did start on a smaller scale but over the long term it hasn’t worked. So we’re ramping it up. I’ll be over in a few months.
North Korea and Iran weren’t sending terrorists out into the world to blow people up. Thats why they weren’t as high up on the list.
We have our military spread all the world because somehow we got tasked with keeping the world safe. Remember when the US Navy SEALs shot those Somali pirates? It wasn’t China who responded. Secondly everytime the US tries to expand businesses in other countries people cry imperialism, racism, and then somthing bout evil white people taking over the world gets thrown in there.
I agree with you on the Pakistan comment. Why are giving terrorists’ money? If we drilled for our own oil, and used nuclear power too we’d hardly be dependant on anyone. Even the French use nuke power.[/quote]
I think we are starting to see eye to eye a little more here. Do you think we were attacked simply because we arent a Muslim country? Or because we were trying to earn a living? What entailed this “earning of a living”? with regards to middle eastern enterprise. The iranian contra affair was a bad start to middle east policy. As was the funding of both iraq and iran during their war and the increase in arms that followed. Our flawed dealings over past years with the israli and palestinian accords didnt do us any favors. Granted I think both countries are full of morons. In fact, thats alot of my disagreeance, is we are not the worlds police. The buildup of forces in the middle east was also provoking and pointless. Remember what we did when the soviets had missles in cuba? Supporting the afghan resistance was fine against the russians, however we did turn our back on their country afterwards, which had undergone decades of warfare. But now we are there to help?
The UN treaty violations…ok. Once again though Iran and NK consistantly violate international accords. How about the genocide in Darfur? The other malignant dictatorships in sub saharan africa that brutally terrorize people everyday? The tribe examples is what i was also alluding to in my post. These countries will not be able to be managed by a centralized government, especially illegitmate ones that we keep in power. Generally there is so much infighting among these peoeple that no nation at all would be a better alternative. I have no love for Hussein and his Shia minority government, but he was no threat, and a small fish that we have wasted too much money and effort on.
As far as Afghanistan, I do see it as a shit or get off the pot. While I disagreed with the notions of why we were there, I especially despised how it was such a half assed effort at the expense of the US troops. Thus, even though I feel it was a pointless conflict, Id rather see it at least won via the troop surge than a malaise ala vietnam. Do stay safe while you are there, are you in the Army?
I understand the “keeping the world safe”, but once again i feel like an ideology masks a less glorious reality. My definition of sovereignity does not include these ventures which our country is undertaking. Furthermore, while someone standing up the the Somali Pirates was beneficial I do not feel it should have been a government entity. Private enterprise should deal with private contractors. This is part of my issue about our government overextending its bounds and using its military for reasons other than allotted by the constitution. I will agree with the comment about the US expanding business, but thats also fairly situational. Is Yum corporation backed up by 10 military bases in China?
Do you think we would still be so involved in the middle east if we werent importing as much oil? This is not a leftist environmentalist question, I am a geologist who will be working in the oil and gas industry. I see alot of potential for self sufficiency in resources through smarter exploration for petroleum, recovering lost reserves from old wildcat wells, alot more natural gas production and coal which we have abundances of. This as well as smarter renewables policy, and no i dont mean biodiesel or other “quick fixes” . But thats another topic.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:Not neccessarily.
Why is it OUR military which is wrong?[/quote]
If you are unfamiliar with our history, it is not my fault, nor is it a weakness in my argument. Buy William Blum’s book Killing Hope if you’re really interested.
[quote]You do know they used their military from 1945-1991 for global plunder?
Were the Russians right in doing what they did?[/quote]
Of course not, but then you’re yet another PWI posted who seems utterly incapable of moving being this playground mentality: if A and B are having a fight, and I criticize A, that must mean I think B is correct, right? No, it’s equally possible they’re both wrong. It’s just that in this case, B is not around anymore, and they’re much less guilty besides.
Do you hear yourself? When have we EVER used war to “spread freedom and democracy.”? We’ve destroyed countless democracies. We are utterly intolerant of democracy. The concept doesn’t even make sense.
See what I mean? This is 100% inferred. It is totally unsubstantiated by anything I have said.
[quote]It’s a fact the colonial period in Africa really messed things up, yet the years under Communist domination did not provide a shining example of uthopia.
Far from it.[/quote]
More attempts to rationalize our bad behavior by citing examples of others’ bad behavior, as if this somehow exonerates us. At what point in our evolution as a species do we get to agree that this kind of thing is just bad, no matter who does it?
[quote]jawara wrote:
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
[quote]jawara wrote:
[quote]elano wrote:
The way I see it, having a big military is kind of like being jacked. Rarely anyone will fuck with you so you don’t have to use your strength. Everyone knows it’s the little weak guy that gets fucked with. One of the reason nobody has messed with out allies either. Big dude’s got their back. [/quote]
You couldn’t have said it any better. I just don’t understand why people have such a big problem with us standing up for ourselves.[/quote]
Because we are not standing up for ourselves. Our military is used for plunder. It’s OTHER people standing up for themselves that we have a problem with.
[/quote]
Who have we plundered?[/quote]
Please stop playing dumb. The Phillipines. Vietnam. China. India. Honduras. Iraq. Practically everybody in Latin America.
[quote]jre67t wrote:
Come on 666Rich are you really that naive? Peace through Strength. Yes it is OUR national interest that matter the most to us. Why is it so hard for hippies to understand that? Like Jawara said our Navy was started because THEY picked on us first.
Self-preservation of our Nation is what comes first. Like you said Rich from a strategy point it matters but it also matters from an Ideology point. If we don’t do it, then China or Russia will do it.
[/quote]
This is a really terrible exposition of the neocon position. Yes, our national interests matter more than any other countries interests. Yes, selective blindness and shady deals with dictators will more than likely be a part of all politics of every country ever for all the rest of civilization.
But we’ve stopped making self-preservation decisions on many matters. We are the foremost power in the world right now (well, not for too much longer if we continue trying to destroy ourselves economically, but we have been for about 20 years since the cold war). There ARE NO direct threats to our existence from a violent source. There are only 2 other countries in the world who could conceivably threaten us with direct violence and who also might–however ridiculously remote that possibility is in real life–decide to do it (Russia, China). But they won’t because it would not be in their best interests to start a war that could destroy them.
Economically it is another matter altogether and that is a much more messy arena. Further, it is conceivable that many of these “self-preservation” decisions simply further problems down the road as we deal with the ever-present unforeseen consequences of short-sighted involvements.