Middle-Class Woes?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

You cannot blame people because they cannot afford to live. …

Not too many people dropping dead in the US due to being poor.

Even our poor have access to health care and food.

The middle class is alive and well in this country.

[/quote]
The argument isn’t that being poor causes death.
Sure the poor can get treatment at least but they have to pay for and end up filing bankruptcy becasue of. A $100k procedure that is only covered up to 80% will end up costing $20k. I do not currenly have $20k so I cannot afford to get sick even with coverage. This does not make meel middle class at all if I know my house can be taken becasue I cannot afford to pay my doctor, etc.

Maybe death would be a better option for the poor?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

His analysis of the whole is junk because it is not really a representative of the whole but a minority within the middle class that make the rest look good–for example thoose with healthcare and 401k, ect.[/quote]

You are absolutely wrong. Your analysis is junk because you point to the minority. Your “magical subsection” that can’t afford to heat their homes, or acquire healthcare, or run their cars, or educate themselves (at what point do they become lower class?). Boudreaux quotes averages, and you make up a subsection and claim it as more representative of the whole?

And given my options of believing Lou Dobbs, LIFTICVS, and Donald Boudreaux on economics, I’m going to have to go with Boudreaux.

To BigFlamer,

How is it true “free market capitalism” when a foreign country can pay their workers damn near slave-wages then pass a chunk of those savings on to the consumer? Exactly how do you suggest domestic manufacturers compete with that? If you have the answer then patent that shit and save America!

I agree with many of the points regarding middle class debt raised by a lot of the posters, people should not buy things that they cannot afford. But on the same tract, many people are living on the edge just to survive, it has nothing to do with frivolous spending.

I also find it laughable that an essay from an upper-class Uni prof is debated on racial significance of the author as opposed to on whether or not what he actually says is bullshit or not.

C

[quote]Creidem wrote:
To BigFlamer,

How is it true “free market capitalism” when a foreign country can pay their workers damn near slave-wages then pass a chunk of those savings on to the consumer? Exactly how do you suggest domestic manufacturers compete with that? If you have the answer then patent that shit and save America!

…C[/quote]

Not Bigflamer but Toyota and Honda do not use slave labor and compete well with domestic manufacturers.

They even make quite a few cars here.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
They even make quite a few cars here.[/quote]

Isn’t that because some laws mandates that a certain percentage of cars be of American origin? Either contain x% of American parts, or make x% of their cars here? The penalty being import tariffs or similar.

I distinctly remember hearing/reading about those laws… am I confused?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Creidem wrote:
To BigFlamer,

How is it true “free market capitalism” when a foreign country can pay their workers damn near slave-wages then pass a chunk of those savings on to the consumer? Exactly how do you suggest domestic manufacturers compete with that? If you have the answer then patent that shit and save America!

…C

Not Bigflamer but Toyota and Honda do not use slave labor and compete well with domestic manufacturers.

They even make quite a few cars here.[/quote]

Zap is exactly right, companies like Toyota are doing very well, and it’s not due to folks slaving away like rented mules either. They have a better business model, build better cars, and guess what, no unions.

Protectionism is not in the best interest of the American autoworkers or their employees.

I stand corrected on the car manufacturers point. Follow-up question for all:

Are there countries that still have a one-way trade relationship that restricts the importation of american products? I remember that japan used to have very stringent policies that prevented the US car makers from selling over there but I don’t know if this is still an issue.

As well, hows China doing on the copywrite infringement issues? I know that they have broken a lot of them in the past and just shrugged their shoulders at any suggested reprimands but I don’t know if this is still a big problem or not?

C

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Creidem wrote:
To BigFlamer,

How is it true “free market capitalism” when a foreign country can pay their workers damn near slave-wages then pass a chunk of those savings on to the consumer? Exactly how do you suggest domestic manufacturers compete with that? If you have the answer then patent that shit and save America!

…C

Not Bigflamer but Toyota and Honda do not use slave labor and compete well with domestic manufacturers.

They even make quite a few cars here.[/quote]

[quote]Creidem wrote:
I stand corrected on the car manufacturers point. Follow-up question for all:

Are there countries that still have a one-way trade relationship that restricts the importation of american products? I remember that japan used to have very stringent policies that prevented the US car makers from selling over there but I don’t know if this is still an issue.
[/quote]

I believe many countries and even the EU are more protectionist than the US. All countries seem to have a certain level of this in a broad range of industries.

I think it is a huge problem. A lot of talk but little action to fix it.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
They even make quite a few cars here.

Isn’t that because some laws mandates that a certain percentage of cars be of American origin? Either contain x% of American parts, or make x% of their cars here? The penalty being import tariffs or similar.

I distinctly remember hearing/reading about those laws… am I confused?

[/quote]

I don’t think this is the case. Japanese and European car companies are building cars in America because we have a great workforce, it saves them on shipping and they have managed to avoid the United Auto Workers union here, thus making them very competitive.

American car companies are building more and more cars in Canada because they can avoid the extremely expensive UAW health care costs up there.

While I think American car company management has been less than stellar the real problem is the union cost. It is staggering how much money from the cost of each car produced in a UAW factory goes to the UAW health and pension fund.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
And given my options of believing Lou Dobbs, LIFTICVS, and Donald Boudreaux on economics, I’m going to have to go with Boudreaux.

[/quote]
I really don’t think you understand why this analysis is utterly wrong. You cannot describe a system qualitatively that is as large as the middle class. It means nothing. Viewed from far away everything looks groovy–that is essentially what this analysis is doing. It is too sythetic in it’s definition of the middle class. The economics of “the middle class” is too dynamic for any accurate measurement.

My statement wasn’t to agrue that Dobbs’ analysis was better than Boudreaux’s–I do not even know what Dobbs thinks–I don’t care. I am just pointing out that Boudreaux’s analyasis couldn’t be any better than Dobb’s.

Economists know nothing–and the good ones know this.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I really don’t think you understand why this analysis is utterly wrong. You cannot describe a system qualitatively that is as large as the middle class.It means nothing. Viewed from far away everything looks groovy–that is essentially what this analysis is doing.[/quote]

  1. Boudreaux is doing things pretty quantitatively. Inherently, qualitative measurements are going to be even more arbitrary and meaningless.

  2. If it is impossible with such a large system, taking smaller chunks of it (like comparing DINKs to single mothers) is like saying he can’t adequately handle the mountain of data with a bulldozer, but you’ve got a pretty good handle on it with a shovel…

This is could be a decent argument, unfortunately, it isn’t the thema of yours. You could say nobody knows what they’re talking about because of the gossamer of the ‘middle class’, but then you only succeed in invalidating yourself in your own relativism and/or you wouldn’t need the people with one car homes and sick babies to do it. You’re arguing that no one knows what they’re talking about except you.

If true, this presents some interesting logic scenarios.

A. The good economists are also liars. Assuming they know nothing, they immorally convince people they know something and are worth lots of money. If they are liars, then they may actually know something and just don’t tell people.

or…

B. The good economists are also poor. Assuming they know nothing and have some moral character (or lack intelligence), they appreciably convey their lack of knowledge about economics and thus go unemployed. And a fiscally poor economist is an intellectually poor economist.

I choose not to indulge in the ‘they know nothing fallacy’ and assume that good economists know something and stick with my previous analysis; Boudreaux over Dobbs and LIFTICVS.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
lucasa wrote:
And given my options of believing Lou Dobbs, LIFTICVS, and Donald Boudreaux on economics, I’m going to have to go with Boudreaux.

I really don’t think you understand why this analysis is utterly wrong. You cannot describe a system qualitatively that is as large as the middle class. It means nothing. Viewed from far away everything looks groovy–that is essentially what this analysis is doing. It is too sythetic in it’s definition of the middle class. The economics of “the middle class” is too dynamic for any accurate measurement.

My statement wasn’t to agrue that Dobbs’ analysis was better than Boudreaux’s–I do not even know what Dobbs thinks–I don’t care. I am just pointing out that Boudreaux’s analyasis couldn’t be any better than Dobb’s.

Economists know nothing–and the good ones know this.[/quote]

This is such ignorant tripe.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I really don’t think you understand why this analysis is utterly wrong. You cannot describe a system qualitatively that is as large as the middle class.It means nothing. Viewed from far away everything looks groovy–that is essentially what this analysis is doing.

  1. Boudreaux is doing things pretty quantitatively. Inherently, qualitative measurements are going to be even more arbitrary and meaningless.

  2. If it is impossible with such a large system, taking smaller chunks of it (like comparing DINKs to single mothers) is like saying he can’t adequately handle the mountain of data with a bulldozer, but you’ve got a pretty good handle on it with a shovel…

It is too sythetic in it’s definition of the middle class. The economics of “the middle class” is too dynamic for any accurate measurement.

This is could be a decent argument, unfortunately, it isn’t the thema of yours. You could say nobody knows what they’re talking about because of the gossamer of the ‘middle class’, but then you only succeed in invalidating yourself in your own relativism and/or you wouldn’t need the people with one car homes and sick babies to do it. You’re arguing that no one knows what they’re talking about except you.

Economists know nothing–and the good ones know this.

If true, this presents some interesting logic scenarios.

A. The good economists are also liars. Assuming they know nothing, they immorally convince people they know something and are worth lots of money. If they are liars, then they may actually know something and just don’t tell people.

or…

B. The good economists are also poor. Assuming they know nothing and have some moral character (or lack intelligence), they appreciably convey their lack of knowledge about economics and thus go unemployed. And a fiscally poor economist is an intellectually poor economist.

I choose not to indulge in the ‘they know nothing fallacy’ and assume that good economists know something and stick with my previous analysis; Boudreaux over Dobbs and LIFTICVS.[/quote]

It is still impossible to say one way or the other whether the “middle class” is doing well or not for the simple fact that there is no hard definition of the middle class and the “system” is too dynamic and complex to sum up using three or four characteristics. It would be like a biologist describing evolution using only three or four species.

It may be possible to make quantitative measurements of certain key characteristics of one or two elements within the system but their implications and how they will be subsequently interpreted by their audience will not always be uniform. Hence Dobbs (along with other economists) says one thing and Boudreaux (and his group) says another.

The fact of the matter is that people want to interpret results of measurements either in a good or bad way so that they can have some sort of justification for the actions surrounding those measurements.

Furthermore, my reasons for using the examples I did was to show that there are measurements that haven’t been considered in Boudreaux’s analysis; not that I actually believe one way or the other. As I have stated many times in regard to statistical analysis–making qualitative correlations is not what statistics do. Whenever there is a person who decides to determine the underlying meaning of a statistics set in subjective way they may be met with objections.

This whole politics forum could disappear if people just realized that the world was not all black and white. People on both sides are usually right in different situations. But if you figured that out, well then what would you all do with all that extra free time?

Foreign car makers are doing better (growing) than the Big 3 because they have a better business model and management that’s not still stuck in the business dynamics for car makers from 1969.

You can’t be making cars in 2007 that only are good for 100,000 miles or 5 years. You can’t keep making cars in 2007 that require heavy periodic maintenace. In 1969 this was a very profitable marketing scheme for the Big 3. Make cars that the consumer has to buy every 5-7 years, and make sure that parts fail at specific intervals so you also get a steady stream of service/OEM parts income. Why did Ford put plastic motor mounts in my 02 vehicle? WHY? Because the plastic degrades at a rate where after 3 years (the warranty period) that like clockwork they fall apart on queue and you need the OEM part.

You can’t be still doing this kind of business if other carmakers are willing to provide the consumer a better quality product. And in 2007, the average consumer wants a long lasting, reliable vehicle with good gas milage. If you do this like Toyota and Honda did, you lose the stream of income from having people buy your cars more often. However, you also have more of the consumer choosing your brand over the rest then = more business for you.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

American car companies are building more and more cars in Canada because they can avoid the extremely expensive UAW health care costs up there. [/quote]

Well, then it comes out of their taxes. Trust me when I say that Canada is not giving these guys a free ride on their health care costs.

[quote]Tithonus81 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

American car companies are building more and more cars in Canada because they can avoid the extremely expensive UAW health care costs up there.

Well, then it comes out of their taxes. Trust me when I say that Canada is not giving these guys a free ride on their health care costs.[/quote]

I understand that but what the UAW takes out of the car manufacturers pocket is amazingly high.

Toyota and Honda pay health care costs for American workers but it costs them far less.

Getting in the UAW was like hitting the lottery. Now the American car manufacturers are stuck paying off the winnings.

And I keep hitting this thread thinking it is says:

Middle-Class Whores

Quite a disappointment to get this.

[quote]Tithonus81 wrote:
Well, then it comes out of their taxes. Trust me when I say that Canada is not giving these guys a free ride on their health care costs.[/quote]

Well duh. We don’t have FREE (as in gratis) health care, we have UNIVERSALLY ACCESSIBLE health care. Yes, we all pay (a lot) for it; but it doesn’t bankrupt individuals who need $100,000 procedures.

When we call it “free”, it’s not free as in “no costs”, it’s free as in “available to all.”

I don’t really know much about economics but why can’t American car manufacturers just not hire union workers?

[quote]40yarddash wrote:
I don’t really know much about economics but why can’t American car manufacturers just not hire union workers?[/quote]

Well, they can, but additional costs (workers at union-preferred wages) make the cost of the vehicles go up, and typically producers don’t want the prices of their goods going up in a competitive market.

Especially in the vehicle market, where there are many substitutable goods and avialability of goods from other countries, escalating prices can lose a lot of market share.

[quote]40yarddash wrote:
I don’t really know much about economics but why can’t American car manufacturers just not hire union workers?[/quote]

They have a contract with the union that forces them to hire union workers.