T Nation

Mexican Gun Laws

In a nutshell John Q. Public can’t have any weapon in caliber that is used by the police or the military. So if Mexico’s ultra-strict gun laws don’t work there do you think they would work in U.S.?

http://www.davekopel.com/espanol/Mexican-Gun-Laws.htm

France is like that too. Seems to work for them.

[quote]Doug Adams wrote:
France is like that too. Seems to work for them. [/quote]

Interesting, I didnt know anything about French gun laws. How much crime do they have though?

[quote]jawara wrote:
Doug Adams wrote:
France is like that too. Seems to work for them.

Interesting, I didnt know anything about French gun laws. How much crime do they have though?[/quote]

My mistake, turns out they have a tiered system of gun ownership, somewhat simliar to NFA weapons here. The people can have military caliber firearms after a lengthy certification period. Here’s a link that briefly goes over French laws:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=49&t=271367&page=2

Overall though their gun laws aren’t as stringent as the UK’s.

Anyway, back on topic.

The whole “military caliber” ban is crap. For one thing, not all countries’ militaries use the same round, and two, the cartels are going to smuggle in their munitions anyway so what’s the point?

I don’t agree with the caliber ban either, not oly for the reason you stated but also because reloading isn’t that hard. Hell, if I was a poor Mexican I think I’d invest in a whole reloading shop and make AR and AK rounds for the cartels.

Crime in the UK from what I understand is pretty bad and again if I understand correctly got WORSE after guns were banned in the UK.

The Mexicans are strict about gun laws. I remember my uncle smuggling small weapons there. Just simple stuff 22 or 38, regular handguns.
Well one day he got caught and he had a choice of giving up his truck or going to jail for 5 years.
But weapons are very prevalent in the country side of Mexico. But they are very strict.

For example, when I go to my grandmas home. Every man has a handgun, just like the old wild west. When town meetings are conducted, men bring there rifles along with there colts.
Its pretty damn old school there, but then again these are towns with only a couple of thousand folks and only a couple of phone lines in the town.
Thats why I love it there.

[quote]jawara wrote:
Crime in the UK from what I understand is pretty bad and again if I understand correctly got WORSE after guns were banned in the UK. [/quote]

Correlation != Causation.

[quote]lixy wrote:
jawara wrote:
Crime in the UK from what I understand is pretty bad and again if I understand correctly got WORSE after guns were banned in the UK.

Correlation != Causation.[/quote]

But no causation without correlation, which is why this is really brought up as an argument.

Or, a bit slower:

Yes, it is true that, yadayadayda

But!, if less guns meant less crimes, how come crime has risen?

How can you claim that causation when there is not even correlation?

Gun laws in Mexico will never work, there is far too much corruption within their government system for it to be upheld properly. They rely heavily on their drug exports as a means of sustaining the country, and while their politicians claim to oppose it, it is quite the opposite.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Gun laws in Mexico will never work, there is far too much corruption within their government system for it to be upheld properly. They rely heavily on their drug exports as a means of sustaining the country, and while their politicians claim to oppose it, it is quite the opposite. [/quote]

The irony is that the most violent elements of Mexican society, the cartels’ sicario (hitmen), are the police and the military. Great article in this month’s Harpers. It is excerpted in this CN article.

[quote]orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
jawara wrote:
Crime in the UK from what I understand is pretty bad and again if I understand correctly got WORSE after guns were banned in the UK.

Correlation != Causation.

But no causation without correlation, which is why this is really brought up as an argument.

Or, a bit slower:

Yes, it is true that, yadayadayda

But!, if less guns meant less crimes, how come crime has risen?

How can you claim that causation when there is not even correlation?

[/quote]

Maybe I’m a little slow. I say again, if I understand correctly the gun laws in the UK were passed in order to reduce the crime rate. However, if I understand correctly the crime rate in the UK has gone UP since the ban was put into place.

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Gun laws in Mexico will never work, there is far too much corruption within their government system for it to be upheld properly. They rely heavily on their drug exports as a means of sustaining the country, and while their politicians claim to oppose it, it is quite the opposite.

The irony is that the most violent elements of Mexican society, the cartels’ sicario (hitmen), are the police and the military. Great article in this month’s Harpers. It is excerpted in this CN article.

[/quote]

It doesn’t surprise me at all. Corruption has penetrated Mexican government to the fullest level, and there is no accountability whatsoever. I warn anyone who goes to border towns like Tijuana, you are truly risking your life. If you think the police are bad here in American, you have no idea.

[quote]jawara wrote:
orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
jawara wrote:
Crime in the UK from what I understand is pretty bad and again if I understand correctly got WORSE after guns were banned in the UK.

Correlation != Causation.

But no causation without correlation, which is why this is really brought up as an argument.

Or, a bit slower:

Yes, it is true that, yadayadayda

But!, if less guns meant less crimes, how come crime has risen?

How can you claim that causation when there is not even correlation?

Maybe I’m a little slow. I say again, if I understand correctly the gun laws in the UK were passed in order to reduce the crime rate. However, if I understand correctly the crime rate in the UK has gone UP since the ban was put into place.[/quote]

The ban on private hand gun ownership in Britain was a knee-jerk reaction by the government following the Dunblane school massacre.

[quote]orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
jawara wrote:
Crime in the UK from what I understand is pretty bad and again if I understand correctly got WORSE after guns were banned in the UK.

Correlation != Causation.

But no causation without correlation, which is why this is really brought up as an argument.

Or, a bit slower:

Yes, it is true that, yadayadayda

But!, if less guns meant less crimes, how come crime has risen?

How can you claim that causation when there is not even correlation?
[/quote]

I don’t.

But since you want to get into an argument: Less guns correlates with less gun-related crimes (and no, I don’t include imitations of guns into that category),

Funny wiki-trivia: Following the awarding of the 2012 Olympic Games to London, the government announced that special dispensation would be granted to allow the various shooting events to go ahead, as had been the case previously for the 2002 Commonwealth Games. However, it was still illegal for Britain’s top pistol shooters to train in England, Scotland or Wales. As a result, British shooters currently spend 20 to 30 days a year training in Switzerland, and receive no public sports funding because their events are considered illegal in the UK.

[quote]lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
jawara wrote:
Crime in the UK from what I understand is pretty bad and again if I understand correctly got WORSE after guns were banned in the UK.

Correlation != Causation.

But no causation without correlation, which is why this is really brought up as an argument.

Or, a bit slower:

Yes, it is true that, yadayadayda

But!, if less guns meant less crimes, how come crime has risen?

How can you claim that causation when there is not even correlation?

I don’t.

But since you want to get into an argument: Less guns correlates with less gun-related crimes (and no, I don’t include imitations of guns into that category),

Funny wiki-trivia: Following the awarding of the 2012 Olympic Games to London, the government announced that special dispensation would be granted to allow the various shooting events to go ahead, as had been the case previously for the 2002 Commonwealth Games. However, it was still illegal for Britain’s top pistol shooters to train in England, Scotland or Wales. As a result, British shooters currently spend 20 to 30 days a year training in Switzerland, and receive no public sports funding because their events are considered illegal in the UK.[/quote]
That’s just messed up . Like competetive shooters are a problem in street crime.

[quote]jawara wrote:
I don’t agree with the caliber ban either, not oly for the reason you stated but also because reloading isn’t that hard. Hell, if I was a poor Mexican I think I’d invest in a whole reloading shop and make AR and AK rounds for the cartels.

Crime in the UK from what I understand is pretty bad and again if I understand correctly got WORSE after guns were banned in the UK.

[/quote]

Crime in the UK was steadily worsening, that continued after the so called ban (in effect there has been a ban in place since the 30s as whilst you could own a gun for sports use, you would have been convicted of murder had you used it for self defence.)

Crime levels in the UK as a whole are pretty low though there are certain hot spots in big cities.

Crime levels in Mexico are totally skewed by the trade of drugs to the US. Without that, it would actually be a pretty low crime country (other than in the very overcrowded Mexico City.)

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Gun laws in Mexico will never work, there is far too much corruption within their government system for it to be upheld properly. They rely heavily on their drug exports as a means of sustaining the country, and while their politicians claim to oppose it, it is quite the opposite.

The irony is that the most violent elements of Mexican society, the cartels’ sicario (hitmen), are the police and the military. Great article in this month’s Harpers. It is excerpted in this CN article.

It doesn’t surprise me at all. Corruption has penetrated Mexican government to the fullest level, and there is no accountability whatsoever. I warn anyone who goes to border towns like Tijuana, you are truly risking your life. If you think the police are bad here in American, you have no idea. [/quote]

Maximus you are clueless. Yes Tijuana can be a bit rough, mainly because it is right next to the US and any criminal with a bit of nouse sees the US day trippers as an easy mark.

Most of Mexico is not particularly dangerous. In fact I feel safer on the streets here than I would in a similar sized UK or US town. Kids here are way more respectful to adults.

That article from Harpers reads like bad porn. What point was he actually trying to make? All he did was sensationalise the situation for an eager American public which lives such a safe life that it craves tales of danger. That is why the US government is able to control its public so easily with stories of the war on terror. (Lots of other countries have this same issue, this is not a specific dig at the US.)

I still remember, when the forces first went into Afghanistan after 9/11, reading all the news reports about sophisticated underground bunker complexes to rival a Bond villian’s lair when in truth there were dusty caves.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
That article from Harpers reads like bad porn. What point was he actually trying to make? All he did was sensationalise the situation for an eager American public which lives such a safe life that it craves tales of danger. [/quote]

It’s not like Harpers is widely read by the American public and it’s not like the author, Charles Bowden, is known for writing porn (good or bad).

http://www.lannan.org/lf/bios/detail/charles-bowden/

So are you saying what he’s written is inaccurate?

Violent deaths by state:

http://www.seguridadjusticiaypaz.org/dmdocuments/ANEXO%20PGR.pdf

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Gun laws in Mexico will never work, there is far too much corruption within their government system for it to be upheld properly. They rely heavily on their drug exports as a means of sustaining the country, and while their politicians claim to oppose it, it is quite the opposite.

The irony is that the most violent elements of Mexican society, the cartels’ sicario (hitmen), are the police and the military. Great article in this month’s Harpers. It is excerpted in this CN article.

It doesn’t surprise me at all. Corruption has penetrated Mexican government to the fullest level, and there is no accountability whatsoever. I warn anyone who goes to border towns like Tijuana, you are truly risking your life. If you think the police are bad here in American, you have no idea. [/quote]

From a leaked DEA powerpoint presentation:

Between Jan 2000-Dec 2006: More than 163,000 military members were criminally processed during former president Vicente Fox?s 6 years term of office. The majority of the crimes were: abuse of power, homicide, embezzlement, kidnapping, bank robbery, illegal possession of firearms and health crimes.

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2008/12/juarez-murders-shine-light-emerging-military-cartel