T Nation

Messed Myself Up with SARMs and Finasteride (Update: Restart Successful)

My regiment moving forward. I just posted this on Propeciahelp.com and want to share here incase it helps anyone. @jamilkh

Goals: Regulate HPA axis, reduce cortisol and sympathetic nervous system dominance. Promote calmness and relaxation, increase parasympathetic nervous system activation. Reduce inflammation in body and brain. Increase tolerance to stress. Maximize bioavailable androgens.

Mindset: I strongly believe my body has the ability to heal itself. The body has evolved over millions of years, surviving generation after generation through the most dire circumstances. The body has such incredible intelligence. It’s working every day to achieve optimum health. There is no doctor that is as intelligent as my body. It’s job is to maintain health. My body is fantastic, it is amazing, I am occupying my body, it wants to heal, it wants to be healthy, and I have to help it.

Sleep: Focus on good high quality sleep every single night without fail. Sleep is the #1 priority in my recovery protocol. The body heals itself when we sleep. Two hours before bed eliminate artificial light and stimualtion from computers, TV, phones, etc… Spend time focusing on meditation and relaxation. Aim to sleep at 8.30PM - the time you fall asleep is more important than how long you sleep. Listen to Shawn Stevensons podcast with Richroll for more information. Sleep is the MOST important thing for recovery. You could do everything else I’ve listed here, but without good high quality sleep every night, you will not recover.

Diet: Strictly avoid all inflammatory foods. No gluten, dairy, refined processed foods, take-away, refined oils, vegetable oils, refined sugar, etc. Limit intake of pro-inflammatory omega 6 fatty acids, increase intake of omega 3s. Eat a wide variety of plants and fiber to optimize gut health and build a strong gut microbiome. Lots of whole plant food - fruits, vegetables, potato, beans, whole grains etc. Consume wild caught fish and grass fed beef. Eating at maintenance or in a calorie surplus. No cheat meals.

Stress + Stimulation: Eliminate all stress and focus on staying calm & relaxed. Meditate and practice deep breathing daily. Spend time out in nature. Significantly reduce stimulation in the form of phone, computer & TV. Avoid violent movies & computer games. Focus on being in that calm, relaxed, parasympathetic state as much as possible. This is the state our body heals in. Practice mindfulness. 1 hour per day meditation daily.

Psychology: Positive and optimisic outlook. I believe I will recover. I will recover. I also will be working psychologist (psychotherapy, CBT, etc) who specializes in trauma & PTSD.

Gratefulness & Gratitude: Reminding myself every day what I am grateful for in my life. I truly believe I am lucky even though I have PFS. My life could have been so much worse. I could have been born in Syria and beheaded by ISIS. Or born in Africa and starved to death at 3 years old. Or slaughtered by machine gun fire on the front wave of the D Day landings. I could be paraplegic and be bedridden for the rest of my life. I will always chose to be grateful and positive for everything in my life, it could have been so much worse. I will not compare myself to my friends or other people I see on social media, instead I will be grateful for what I do have. This is an opportunity for transformation, I think of all the positives that will come from my situation, I will be able to appreciate the smaller things in life so much more once recovered, I always chose to be positive with everything in life.

Exercise: I have delt with severe exercise intolerance for the past 2 years. Now that I have recovered my androgen levels I plan to introduce very slow, gentle, graded exercise to help build my bodies tolerance to stress. Ultimately I vision myself weightlifting and sprinting as I believe these forms of exercise will help to stabilise my endocrine system and androgen receptors. I also plan to walk daily and complete walks and hikes in nature. It’s very important in my opinion that you don’t push yourself however. If you feel worse after exercising, don’t fucking do it. Exercise can create a lot of inflammation and stress when your body is in a weak burdened state.

Motivation & Information: I highly recommend the Youtube channel Health Recovery for those going through a similar journey. James who runs the channel, spent I believe 8 years of his life suffering with severe chronic illness and recovered his health naturally through trial and error. How I recovered my androgen levels was purely by following his advice without supplements. I personally have downloaded every single one of his videos (using J Downloader) and listen when I’m bored on my iPod. He gives fantastic information for our situation and is a really great source of motivation.

Supplements: DO NOT LOOK FOR HEALTH IN SUPPLEMENTS. We are desperate, look for quick fixes and want to take a pill to recover. It doesn’t work like that. I believe supplements can aid the process, however, its the fundamental changes to your life and what your lifestyle is like a on a daily basis that is the most important aspect in recovery. Keep it simple, save your money and spend it on good food instead. Don’t go crazy OCD on this trying to find the perfect protocol, keep it simple. I am not recommending anyone to take anything, but I personally will be supplementing with the following:

  • Vitamin D 5000 IU/d + K2 100mcg/d
  • Zinc 30mg/d
  • Omega 3 DHA+EPA 3000mg/d
  • Vitamin C 1000mg/d with Bioflavanoids 400mg/d
  • Creatine 5mg/d
  • Ashwagandha sensoril before bed
  • Magnesium Glycinate, 500mg Magnesium
  • Phosphatidylserine before bed
  • Chamomile Tea

Bonus Items:

  • Sauna 3x per week, help the body detoxify and reduce burden on liver & kidneys,
  • Meditation + Mindfulness. 1 hour meditation minimum daily.
  • Time spent outside, in nature, sunshine, walking barefoot on grass,
  • Laughter every single day. Watch and listen to comedies. Keep a smile as much as you can.
  • Playing with pets and animals,
  • Probiotics. I prefer homemade fermented probiotics, I use water Kefir
  • Affirmations + Mantras,
  • Visualisation,
  • Deep breathing, Yin Yoga, Relaxation exercises, grounding,
  • Gratitude + Gratefulness,
  • Reduce chemical burden. Eliminate Endocrine Disrupting Chemicals. I use only natural toiletry products. Wash all food to remove pesticides.
  • Remove toxic people, environments and circumstances from life.
  • Hydrate often. 3-4L per day. Add salt.

Avoid:

  • Any stimulants, strictly no caffeine,
  • Pharmaceutical drugs,
  • The wired, stressed, overstimulated state, AT ALL COSTS.
  • Pushing yourself, doing too much too soon.
  • Any person or activity that leaves you feeling drained, stressed or exhausted,
  • News, politics, social media, forums, etc. These are downers in my opinion and not productive to recovery.
  • Overloading your brain with information and stimulation.
  • Negative self-talk, rumination, worry. Live in the PRESENT.
  • Comparing yourself to others.
  • Minimize masturbation.
  • Strictly no porn, I will only masturbate to my imagination to rewire my brain from years of porn abuse and regulate my dopamine receptors.

I also plan to eat lots of cooked and then cooled potatoes to increase my consumption of resistant starches responsible for the production of the SCFA called Butyrate. Butyrate is a HDAC inhibitor and can be very helpful to reverse any epigenetic damage done by Finasteride. I also plan to complete a microbiome analysis to ensure I have the species of microbes present in my gut responsible for producing Butyrate, and if they’re absent look into a stool transplant. Butyrate also has many, many other benefits, and can help heal a damaged gut and heal the blood brain barrier, both of which can often be causes of brainfog.

I chose to be positive and optimistic. I am healing. I will recover. I will not be active on this forum moving forward, however I will update here when I see progress and when I receive further blood work.

I have also just donated $1000 AUD to the PFS Foundation. If you are reading this and have money to donate, I highly encourage you do also. There are so many people out there suffering and we need as much research completed as possible.

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@lbc2020 @jrt1103 @oldkid Incase it helps.

My thread on Propeciahelp.com is linked below. Although I was taking a SARM when I first crashed, I am confident I have PFS for the following reasons:

  1. I crashed, then was hyperandrogenic for around 2 weeks, during these two weeks I felt fucking fantastic, libido was through the roof and I was making PBs in the gym, I also had my testosterone checked during these two weeks and my Free Testosterone was at 82 pmol/L (250-750). No doubt this is due to androgen receptor overexpression due to the presence of extremely low androgens. I then crashed again.
  2. I made a recovery after this 2 week period and the second crash and actually felt pretty good for around 3 months. Then I crashed again severely and have not recovered yet. My testicles atrophied severely at this point.
  3. I noticed ZERO improvement on HCG when my free testosterone was at 1000. My testicular atrophy did not reverse at all even on the HCG. My balls are still atrophied to this day.
  4. I still have symptoms of PFS now even though my natural androgen status is fully recovered.
    From what I understand, this is typical of Post Finasteride Syndrome.

My blood work to give motivation for others.

October 2020:
Screen Shot 2020-10-09 at 11.15.24 AM
Screen Shot 2020-10-09 at 11.32.33 AM

October 2018
Screen Shot 2020-10-09 at 11.28.17 AM

And lastly, the most important thing is consistency. Don’t expect to make any progress if you make positive changes and then fall back into old habits a few weeks later. The body loves consistency. Here’s a good video by Health Recovery that elaborates further.

All the best everyone. Stay strong, keep your head up, keep pushing forward, and never fucking give up.

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Good to see you are on the right path man, how strong do you think is the link between giving up ANY addiction and feeling amazing despite having only OK T numbers, your numbers are great when I say OK I mean people that feel great even with T on the low normal, must be receptors sensitivity

Yes I agree Finasteride likely impacted my androgen receptor expression to some degree. Luckily not to a large extent I believe, as I have no issues with erections & I feel strong presently.

The common theme between all recovery stories I have read has been exercise, weight lifting, lifestyle and time. I believe weight lifting will help to stabilise our androgen receptor sensitivity. Furthermore, look into HDAC inhibitors like butyrate. I believe chamomile tea is also a HDAC inhibitor. I don’t understand the science well, but my general understanding is these HDAC inhibitors can help reverse the epegenetic damage done on our androgen receptors. The video below explains it better than I have. Watch from 1:37:04. I would be careful about sodium butyrate supplementation though however, I have read people who crashed and got much worse from it, I suggest the natural route - resistant starch & cold potatoes as I elaborated on in my previous post.

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Always good to learn!
Cheers man!

Again, importance of Butyrate mentioned at around 5.47.

And the following thread on propeciahelp

https://forum.propeciahelp .com/t/androgen-receptor-overexpression-and-sensitivity-to-hormones-reversed-by-epigenetic-therapy-that-restores-pur-to-a-transcriptional-repressor-complex-of-ar-deregulated-in-hrpc/36705/221

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Hey man. Thanks for all the updates Jordan, you’re a good man. I tried drinking today and the alcohol had no effect on me. Libido still not exsistent. I’m so tired but I’m pretty much waiting for a miracle to happen at this point. Hope you’re doing good, cheers.

Are you still at work or school man? If you are under a lot of stress and pressure due to work or school commitments this can have a massive detrimental negative effect on your recovery.

Take my case as an example. I was severely hypogonadal for 12 months, with crippling chronic fatigue, sleep issues, depression, extreme brainfog etc, etc. I was an absolute mess. During these first 12 months, I continued to push myself to go to work and pushed myself to exceed in the workplace and excel at my responsibilities. I did not put myself nor my health first. I put other people and their emotions before me. Looking back now, this was a detrimental mistake. I honestly believe If I had taken a significant amount of time off from work when I first crashed and comitted myself 100% to recovery, I would have never gotten as ill as I did. As soon as I quit my job and moved back in with my parents, I was able to heal and recover, this was the turning point in my recovery. There is an old saying “You cannot heal in the place you got sick”. Maybe this might apply for you also.

Do not make the mistake I did. Never put other peoples emotions before yours. Nothing matters right now except your health. Your body, your health and how you feel are the most important things in the world right now. Do not put pressure on yourself to live up to other peoples expectations, do not put pressure on yourself to live up to responisbilities other people have placed on yourself. You need to be selfish. This is life or death, and you need to do everything you can to help yourself to get out of this hole.

Based from my experience, I strongly suggest you take some sick leave or a leave of absence. I wish someone had told me this when I was at my worst, so I want to write it here incase it helps you or a future reader.

Hang in there bro, trust me it will get better and you will get through this. And just know that there is always medication, TRT, etc, to turn to as a last resort. Even though it may seem like your life is over and things will never be good again, especially when you are in that depressed state, just know that this is not the case, this is your mind playing tricks on you, you will get through this, you will recover and you will be healthy again.

Hang in there bro and just know I’m always here to help if you need it.

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Thanks man, needed to hear that today. I have recently started working again and it’s keeping me distracted which is a good thing for me. I notice I feel worse on the weekends when I have nothing to do. I did quit everything prior to this, started working again since last week.

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If work makes you feel better than stick with it, everyone is different. Just make sure you really focus on stress management and keeping your stress levels low. Stress is the #1 killer.

Keep pushing forward man, do the right thing every single day, you will get there.

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How you doing now man?

Hey bro, I am doing decently well. Mentally I am very strong, positive and optimistic. Have been going out with friends a fair bit, started a volleyball team with mates, and also been fishing and 4wding a fair bit, so life’s pretty good at the moment :grinning:

Unfortunately I am still not 100%. Still struggling with very low libido, issues with chronic fatigue, etc etc. I’m contemplating hopping on TRT to just see how I feel at higher testosterone levels. But this will only be a last resort option, I am first trying Thyroid NDT as my TSH is at 4.1. Just going to continue experimenting with my hormones until I get back to 100% is my plan.

How about you have you made any progress in your recovery? I hope you are tracking well man.

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That is very good! Glad you’re progressing! Makes me really happy to hear. Mood wise I feel better, work is also going fine. Still encounter times where I zone out. It’s an up and down road. Libido is still no. exsistent. Your last blood test looked very good. I just took a bloodtest yesterday which I will post when I get the results. Thanks for taking the time to reply! Wish you good luck with further recovery mate.

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Feel free to share your blood test results here, I’d be interested to hear how you are progressing.

Yes recovery is very much non-linear, two steps forward, one step back. One thing that really helps me is to not focus so much on where I want to be, but focus on the small improvements month-by-month. If I focus on what I don’t have or what I’m missing out on, this just makes me depressed, so focusing on the month-by-month progress and seeing that I am moving forward in a positive direction keeps me positive and motivated :). I compare myself now to how I was a year ago and I’m a completely different person, the progress is huge!

I hope fixing my Thyroid will resolve my fatigue issues. My doctor has prescribed 50mg/d of Natural Desiccated Thyroid. My goal is to get TSH down from 4.1 closer to 1.0.

Regarding TRT, I know my labs look good, but I believe the Finasteride induced some degree of receptor damage / androgen resistance / androgen insensitivity. I want to get my Free T up to 1000-1500pmol/L (most recent blood test is 600pmol/L) to overcome the potential “androgen resistance” and see how I feel. This will only be a last resort option though and I will reconsider after I’ve given it some time for the Thyroid meds to kick in. Will update here with how I go :slight_smile:

Good luck man

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I see. It’s crazy that Fin is still on the market. Didn’t Merck hide foundings about persistent sexual side effects because they said it would affect sales?

Finasteride is worse than actual poison imo!!

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Sorry to say but your SHBG won’t decrease with time, but there’s no harm in trying as i did the same thing.

The only thing that’s going to decrease SHBG is testosterone supplementation. I’ve tried boron, proviron, even HGH, with with varying degrees of success in lowering my SHBG, but thats all it did, just lowered it. Unfortunately it never changed how i felt. I had to go on testosterone to get tangible results.

Trust me when i say, you’d MUCH rather be on testosterone than thyroid replacement. Replacing and giving your body the proper amount of T3 or T4 is more often than not a difficult process.

I noticed you’re off T and when i read that you had chronic fatigue and very low libido, i instantly remember how i felt when i tried to stay off T as well. I’d go to the gym and feel absolutely DRAINED. Pretty much every waking moment of my life felt like i was dragging my body. It was a few months before i realized that i just needed to commit.

Your TSH will get better when your testosterone gets up, however you may still need thyroid but who knows. I think its possible to cure it naturally through diet as i’ve seen too many videos on the subject of people healing their underlying causes through proper nutrition.

Btw great thread dude. I stumbled upon health recovery and began taking his advice as well. Hoping through mimicking the advice that both yourselves have mentioned, i can get right within a years time of discipline and making the right choices every day.

Stay up and keep fighting the good fight!

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I believe it will drop down since I was on an extended pct which raised my shbg from 33 to 50. So it might just be the clomid. Should have mentioned that.

Recent bloodwork 14 months post crash

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Thanks for the comment dude.

Mate, this is exactly how I feel. I’ve tried my best to stay positive for so long, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say that it’s really demotivating to feel like this constantly. I’ve been hitting the gym again, but I just don’t have that fire or spark like I used to.

Going to trial the prescription Thyroid NDT and if I’m still having issues in 6 weeks or so I want to try TRT and see how I feel. At this point I’m chasing 100%. I’ve made amazing progress to recover from 0 to 80%, but I think I’m ready to do whatever it takes and make the jump to 100.

Cheers