Mesomorphic Condition

Pharma / TRT
1

I just want to THANK YOU bushidobadboy “BBB”, Cortes and all the members that contributed to “The HGH Experiment” thread. They put their time, effort, and information to benefit all BodyBuilders, PowerLifters and all Athletes.

The information below is taken from “The HGH Experiment” and this is the link to it:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/the_hgh_experiement?id=2803589&pageNo=0

The HGH Experiment discussed different issues that is related to HGH.

Here i am trying to GATHER the info that is only related to achieving a Mesomorphic Condition and what precautions and measurements should one take while on/after this protocol. OF COURSE WITH YOUR HELP AS WELL.
For example,

  • What to use in conjunction with the HGH and Testosterone(AI,blood pressure,…).
  • What PCT should be considered
  • Any info that might achieve the Mesomorphic Condition with NEGATINE MINIMUM SIDE EFFECTS
2

First of all, the HGH protocol:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Seriously though I’m just waiting for Cortes to confirm or deny the i.v. admin.

BBB

–

Cortes Wrote:

Pumps in the gym are just incredible. I feel like superman. Yes, a lot of this will be due to the AAS, but, much like the fat-loss above, there is something just a bit more going on, as I have used AAS for long enough at this point to be able to make a distinction. I do an IM shot of GH before training (all other shots are done IV) and sometimes I just have stop everything because the pumps are SO full and intense. It’s actually a problem at times, as I cannot spend as much time as I would like on deadlifts and such because the back pumps become so bad that they just cripple me.
[/quote]

Thanks for that. So I guess I’ll have to tell you guys the new protocol.

Actually it’s not much different. In fact it’s just a change to EOD, not E3D. The reasoning being that I think the i.v. spikes are in and out quick enough that with one day completely off, the negative feedback and consequent somatostatin release shouldn’t come into effect.

Again, this is my opinion.

BBB[/quote]

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Just keep it simple. One vial of GH EOD, split into 3 or more doses.

BBB[/quote]

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Or 8iu in my case :wink:

I also think that if you use the i.v. method, then one large spike and several smaller ones is good, as opposed to say 3 or 4 equal size doses. The large one should be post workout.

BBB[/quote]

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
BUSHMASTER wrote:

I am not doing the exact protocol though as I am doing this for cutting purposes for a competition. I am doing 2iu’s in am and 2iu’s preworkout all iv. No injects on non workout days.

Do your purposes negate the premise that the most important time is PWO?
[/quote]

For meso changes, yes PWO is crucial, but for fat loss, AM and pre-workout is the most important IMO.

BBB
[/quote]

So it is injecting I.V eod,
One vial of GH EOD, split into 3 or more doses.

Injection day: one large spike and several smaller ones is good, The large one should be post workout.
For meso changes, yes PWO is crucial

(Example: if 8iu are used, then 2iu injecting AM, 2iu injecting pre workout and 4iu injecting post workout)

3

Secondly, AAS while on the HGH protocol & PCT:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]ins8ibl wrote:
BBB, I think you said AAS should be run for the duration of HGH use. Isn’t 21 weeks a long cycle of AAS?

What would you suggest as a complimentary AAS cycle for this HGH experiment? Would it be better to run two short cycles with a break in the middle?[/quote]

That is an excellent question. I think there are a couple of angles of approach (actually three) that could be considered as viable options.

As you point out, two shorter cycles with a break, or a ‘blast and cruise’ approach should be viable and is probably a sensible method to persue.

However, a 21 week cycle should be OK to recover from, BUT ONLY with a stasis taper protocol. You can forget about a SERM PCT IMO in a cycle of this length.

Having said all this, I’m hoping that this ‘new’ GH protocol will effect the desired changes in a much shorter timeframe (especially if MGF is added), meaning less time on AAS and an easier recovery.

Part of me thinks that 1000-2000mg per week of test (plus AI obviously) is ‘all’ that is needed in terms of AAS.

Some folks may throw their hands up in horror at that figure, but remember kids, we’re not playing in the sandbox here. we are specifically trying to dramatically alter the basic phenotype of the body towards a much more mesomorphic condition. We will be using large (but not ‘extreme’ by any means when compared to natural levels during puberty) amounts of GH, and I think that large amounts of AAS will be highly synergistic.

BBB[/quote]

1000-2000mg per week of test (plus AI obviously) is ‘all’ that is needed in terms of AAS.
a 21 week cycle should be OK to recover from, BUT ONLY with a stasis taper protocol.

4

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

5

Blood pressure:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Thanks Moriarty, glad you are enjoying.

I do have a couple more relevant questions for this thread in the context of my upcoming show:

I am LOVING the pump from GH. However, I notice my water retention is all over the place from one or two days to the next. I will definitely be dropping my test and GH 1 week out from my show date (July 26th). But I was thinking, if the pump from IM injection is so great, that it would be a good idea to inject IM about 30 minutes before each stage appearance. I will be on masteron, tren and winstrol, and I will be using lasix.

So, it’s probably a dumb question, because, if it works, it works, but I’m just wondering if anyone sees any flaws in my logic here. Is there something here I’m missing, or does this sound like a good recipe for an even crazier pump on-stage than I should already have?

And one more:

Are the fat-loss effects of GH greater overall with IM injections, or will IV net one the same overall results (based upon what members more knowledgeable than myself know or can surmise)? If IM injections will provide, overall, better fat-loss than IV, then I may go with majority IM shots for the last 5 weeks or so (well, four weeks, then drop the last week) up to the show, and then continue with IV afterward.

Any thoughts?

[/quote]

Good questions all, Cortes. I’ll do my best to provide answers as I see them.

Firstly regarding the water retention, yes there is a bit, but I take 25mg aldactone ED to control my BP whilst ‘on’ and this seems to keep things in check.

BBB[/quote]

Take 25mg aldactone ED to control my BP

6

If using 500-750 mgs of Testosterone will be enough to get the most out of this protocol, then this is better and safer.

Then:

  • no need to worry about estrogen and water retention
  • no need to worry about blood pressure
  • no need to worry about cholesterol
7

Actually from my perspective, I think that me and all athletes are fortunate that your understanding and knowladge has advanced and the protocol as well.

  • Can you mantion how your protocol advanced in the past year? In what ways, do you mean timings, way of injecting?
  • Is it a big change that might reflect faster results, more of a Mesomorphic Condition, and less sides?

Honestly, i think that the HGH experiment is the only and most important STUDY that was made to see how HGH benefit Bodybuilder mainly. Thats why i am trying to be up to date with this important information.

8

It would be great to hear from the people that used the previous protocol and tell us how they feel after all these years.
Do they think that there bodies changed in a permanent way?

BBB you have advised and supervised alot of athletes. i’m sure alot of them don’t share their experiences here, so would you be kind enough to tell us what changes did they see in the long run?

Thank you

9

you are looking for the magic bullet IT DOES NOT EXIST. i ahve used GH and damn near everything else for 20 years more on than off. it makes a marginal difference…THAT IS IT…i get so tired of all these threads that want to make it out to be THE ANSWER…its a tool on the box …that is all it will ever be

10

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

11

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

12

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]morepain wrote:
you are looking for the magic bullet IT DOES NOT EXIST. i ahve used GH and damn near everything else for 20 years more on than off. it makes a marginal difference…THAT IS IT…i get so tired of all these threads that want to make it out to be THE ANSWER…its a tool on the box …that is all it will ever be [/quote]

Sure it’s just a ‘tool in the box’, but for those who [i]have truly sorted out their nutrition, training, lifestyle, supplementation and AAS usage GH and/or other peptides can make the difference between 10% and 7% bodyfat (to pick two numbers out of my arse at random, lol).

BBB[/quote]

well you know that i certainly am a fan of GH but its just easy to tell by reading threads the guys that have convinced themselves that this is gonna be it the one magical thing that changes everything and as you know it does not. the marginal difference you illustrate is accurate and i am sure severely disappointing to the OP. What people want to hear is once i started GH my whole life changed i went form 200 to 260 and leaner etc etc or some crap like that…out of most of the chemicals that are used i would say it makes the LEAST impact to a new user all things considered.

13

I would say that GH and the GHRPs, combined with a reasonable knowledge of their effects in fed/unfed states has made an absolutely huge difference to my physique.

14

Dave, what do you think have been the most significant changes that using GH/GHRP-6 (or whatever you have used) has produced? When you say “huge difference” I do not doubt that, because I know you are very knowledgeable.

15

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Dave, what do you think have been the most significant changes that using GH/GHRP-6 (or whatever you have used) has produced? When you say “huge difference” I do not doubt that, because I know you are very knowledgeable.[/quote]

I would say that my leanness and overall conditioning is hugely improved, with little change to diet.

Simply introducing the GHRPs (specifically GHRP-6 for me) made me noticeably leaner within only a couple of weeks - and the leanness continued until I have reached what I consider a set point for my current level of effort. That is, I could continue to drop bodyfat fairly easily given very minor dietary changes.

The level of vascularity that can be achieved is astonishing, as I’m sure BBB will agree.

The key is knowing when to dose your peptides, in terms of the nutrients you have available to you at any given point. Without getting anal about it, if you are fed then a GH pulse will lessen potential fat gain, and if you are unfed then it will drastically increase fatty acid mobilisation which in turn is muscle sparing.

After having assessed the effects from dosing the peptides with no dietary changes, I performed a “mini-fasting” experiment.

My method was as follows;

GHRP-6, 125mcg upon waking, and every 3 hours afterwards.

NO FOOD until 3-4 PM

Carb/Protein feast from 3-4 PM until training (usually around 8-9PM)

Protein/Fats exclusively after training, remembering to give myself a final dose of GHRP-6 before bed.

At the weekends (so 4 days in total) I would abandon the dietary plan but still dose the peptides to lessen any fat gain.

I have pics in my alpha cell thread, but basically I went from having a “smooth” stomach to lightly defined and highly vascular abdominals. I lost close to 14lbs and maintained my strength (didn’t gain any though).

This was run with around 400 mast and 200 test PW.

If I fail to dose my peptides for a few days, the softening effect is fairly rapid.

I actually found that fasting (perhaps with light cardio, or even normal daily activities, assuming you aren’t sat behind a desk) with a GHRP dose beforehand to be a very quick, effective, and EASY way to shed fat.

Timing of what/when you eat vs dosing is crucial, however.

GHRPs will be in my arsenal forever, assuming I can always get hold of them.

16

Thanks, Dave. This is very interesting. Presumably the GH pulsing is more effective with intermittent fasting, given the increased GH levels during the fasted period.

I will be using GHRP-6/CJC-1293 myself soon, although I will be following a carb cycling diet. It seems like, even on high carb days, that PWO is an ideal time to administer the GHRP, because glucagon levels will be increased. I would like to know, and perhaps BBB could help me with this, if using an acetylcholine supplement like DMAE will have a synergistic effect, given that acetylcholine increases glucagon secretion.

17

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

18

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
given that acetylcholine increases glucagon secretion.[/quote]

More information please RG, preferrably with evidence.

Cheers.

BBB[/quote]

I found this on google:

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/107/4/1065

Even if it is true in humans, what would be the benefit of elevated glucagon?

19

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

20

Thanks. It was just a naive question I had. And since I’m already using some nootropics, it seemed like a natural one.

EDIT

The study (on glucagon and GH secretion) that I had found was this: Comparative HGH response to i.v. glucagon and i.v. arginine stimulation tests in children and adolescents - PubMed