T Nation

Meridia (Sibutramine) vs ECA Stack


#1

Hi,

My doctor suggested me to take Meridia (Sibutramine).

"Sibutramine is known as a satiety enhancer. It is used as part of a weight management program (a calorie-reduced diet and physical activity) to help people lose weight and maintain weight loss. It works in the brain by affecting certain chemicals that control your appetite, and helps you eat less by making you feel full sooner. It may also increase the way your body uses energy (thermogenesis)."

So I am wondering how this medication compares with the good old ECA stack.

I am 39 yo, 5'9", 275 lbs 25%BF, I work out in weight room 6 days per week for the last 2 years, so far I have lost 80 lbs (40% bf to 25% so far.

Any experience users here?

Thanks in advance!


#2

Well I personally have never used meridia but I can tell you that comparing it to the ECA stack is like comparing apples and oranges. The ECA stack is effective but users have to take periodic breaks from the Ephedrine component to avoid downregulation. That’s not to say the aspirin and caffeine will not remain effective in their own right. Many have lost weight on meridia because it does kill the appetite. I don’t think it mixes well with bodybuilding but to each his own.

It should be noted that the meridia carries with it some undesirable side effects such as high blood pressure and increased heart rate (sounds like a stimulant, doesn’t it ?). The notes on meridia contraindicate use with other wieght loss products and decongestants.

So it’s not advisable to use the two at the same time. I would prefer the ECA stack. If you are still trying
to loose weight sure, give the Meridia a try. And congrats on the 80lb weight loss. WR3


#3

Sibutramine can be useful for appetite reduction, ECA for the same as well as increased fat usage and added drive in the gym. Both have a lot of contraindications so be careful.

With that out the way, I have found Sib. to work best as part of a comprehensive fat loss plan. 15mg for the first 2 days followed by 1 on/1 off for 2 weeks. As appetite is reduced, you eat because you need fuel rather than for pleasure, boredom or habit.

If you plan and stick to an intelligent eating schedule, you become accustomed to eating health food when you need it.

Mood elevation is noticed(initial trials were as an antidepressant) in the first 2 weeks and can be helpful during dieting. There is not the same ‘mania’ and then crash as with ECA and so is generally better tolerated.


#4

Hi,

Thanks for the answers, my doctore recommended me to cycle it 3 months on and 3 months off, since it seems it may take some time to be effective.

My eating habits are very good now, so I want to use it for metabolism increase and fat loss burner.

So now, I have to decide how I should cycle it 3 months on/off or 2 weeks on/off, I think that on off period and can use ECA.

They other thing I don’t know is if Meridia was catabolic.


#5

Have you done a search on it? I bet if you did you could find the answer to that in minutes…


#6

Yes I did and I redid, I have not found a lot of information and the info found was in very medical term, I could barely understand…

“The satiety agent sibutramine acts in part through a primary amine metabolite, M2. To investigate whether M2 could affect glycaemia independently of satiety and weight loss, groups of normal mice received a single dose of M2 (1 or 10 mg/kg) and food was withheld. Compared with controls (who received vehicle only), M2 (10 mg/kg) decreased basal plasma glucose concentrations, with a maximal decrease of about 25% at 48 hours (p < 0.05). Soleus muscles were isolated from the mice at intervals: insulin-mediated glucose uptake by the muscles from controls progressively decreased over 24 hours whereas uptake was maintained by muscles from M2-treated mice. Hepatic gluconeogenesis was reduced about 40% by liver snips isolated from M2-treated mice after 24 hours (p < 0.05). These preliminary results suggest that the M2 metabolite of sibutramine can reduce glycaemia, maintain insulin-mediated muscle glucose uptake and reduce hepatic gluconeogenesis independently of satiety and weight loss.”

So It does say that it maintains insulin-mediated muscle glucose uptake.

Anyway, I plan to combine it with a good AAS cycle.


#7

On a quick search it seems that its main action is as a re-uptake inhibitor of norepinephrine, seratonin and Dopamine, which suggests to me that this is how it causes it’s appetite blunting effect - but only as a semi-educated guess… i know this is a common factor in Adrenal/Dopagenic based weight control drugs.

There is nothing to suggest it is going to be catabolic in the slightest - what may be is the secondary reduction of calories following it’s use.

You should be aware that it leads to a large increase in BP and coupled with AAS this could very easily be problematic, even during one cycle, if pre-disposed to the condition as so many are.

I would honestly look into its indications and contraindications - for example if you are on any SSRI or MAOI you will be at a high risk for Seratonin Syndrome.

I would NOT take this drug on the word of a doctor, and if you can’t understand what you are reading about it, then i seriously suggest you learn how to digest such information - contrary to what many graduates say, one does not need a degree to analyse abstracts and medical articles!

Are you also aware that Reductil has undergone a massive marketing drive over the past year or two… and it is HIGHLY likely your doctor is supposed to sell it? As someone who is willing to mess with their hormones for whatever reason (either illegally, unsupervised or both), then i urge you to ‘shop around’ weight control drugs to see what suits you best, rather than relying on the information a GP just got told himself in a seminal last week held by Abbott Laboratories themselves.

**I am a big fan of self awareness when it comes to drug use… whether it is prescribed or not. Our society leaves ALL medical information in the hands of a few who we entrust fully to treat us… except the human body has a very distinct and effective way of telling the owner what the fuck is going on/wrong. No wonder so many people cannot manage to be self-sufficient when it comes to ‘feeling better’ as it has been out of our own hands too long (the fact so many benign drugs are not available OTC is of no help but that isn’t the point here).

I am of course NOT suggesting we all self-medicate, far from it - i am saying work WITH the medical professions, you know yourself better than anyone - Doctors included, but utilise what information and working knowledge they do have to your advantage of course.**

JMO.


#8

[quote]heretorock wrote:

"…So I want to use it for metabolism increase and fat loss burner.

[/quote]

I have not seen much to suggest it is a metabolic stimulant or a thermogenic. In fact i am pretty certain it is not.

It is a drug that acts in a very similar way to MAOI’s and SSRI’s but has little to no AD effects.
It will however allow a build-up of the neuro-chemicals(NC) mentioned in my former post which will blunt appetite. Thats all AFAIK.

It is being marketed as a weight-loss drug now - but as is the case with so many drugs out there (MDMA and Zyban of particular note - both trialled as AD drugs!!), it was not designed for such a purpose.

ALSO you have hinted that you want to use it for a long period (and you must as all re-uptake inhibitors require time for the Neuro-chemicals to build levels) but interspersed by periods of ECA. I think this is a terrible idea.
How long will it take for the very high levels of the NC’s to disperse to normal levels? I am confident it takes a while, around 2 weeks if Fluoxetine and Segeliline are anything to go by… so you will be essentailly stacking to two contra-indicated drugs… or at least their effects.

I am sure at 25% and from 40% you will go ahead and do it anyway… but i wanted to give my input.

brook


#9

Thanks Brook for you info and thoughts on this, always very useful. Actually, I am really questioning the approch and that is a reason why I am posting here, to get your thoughts and experience.

BTW, I totally agree with you when you said that we must be aware of what we take. With all the available information on the net I really have in pity the MD, we may probably know more than him on certain subjects (it as like this when I go to Circuit City to buy a TV…).

You answer my questions, and, you challenged my thoughts enough for me to say, at the end, I am losing weight without it. My good diet, some AAS, good sleep, and kicking my ass in the gym do the job so far. Do I really need something else? Do you have a pill that increases patience…


#10

LOL! Good man - that’s all i ever want to do - provoke at least thought on a decision. If it continues along the same lines after that thought, fair enough.

Trenbolone is a VERY worthwhile drug for fat mobilisation… and i would not be adverse to using ECA (well, actually i would as i hate the shit) ran occassionally, moderately interspersed with Albuterol.

I would also suggest at your bodyfat level (fantastic achievement BTW - i dont know if i mentioned that before, i really mean that! I bet you feel like a new man already!) you can do more naturally, and then use the aids to get to around 10% or so (loose skin and tissue willing).

I have recently started posting in Supps and Nutrition and i wasn’t aware that it was such a decent place for dietary info. i suggest you have a look for some tips/motivation.

How is your current diet and training going?


#11

I’ll go see this supps and Nutrition section.

For the diet, I lost the first 80 pounds following the Precision Nutrition system. Then I got to plateau so started (based on my trainer recommandation) a ketogenic type (similar to GSD) of diet which consist in details:

I am eating every 3 hours

Breakfast
4 whole eggs
3 slices of turkey bacon
Vitamin C
Multi-Vitamines
5 g BCAA
3 Omega 3

Snack (Am and pm)
120 g (4oz) of meat
2 cups of veggies
5 g BCAA

Lunch and dinner
7 oz meat
veggies
5 g BCAA
3 omega 3

pre-bedtime snack
120 g (4oz) of meat
2 cups of veggies
5 g BCAA

Pre-workout
1 scoop of protein powder
SuperPump

Post-Workout
2 scoops of protein powder
5 g Gluatime
10g BCAA
5 g Creatine

I do it 6 days/week and on the 7th day I add some carbs, fruits, sweet potatoes and rice.

I have already lost another 15 lbs, in 3 weeks with that diet !

As for the training, I go to the gym 6 days/week, in the morning I do weight training and 3-4 times/week I go back in the evening for cardio (25 min. HIIT followed by another 20 minutes SSC). My weight training is cycled. My new cycle, that I will start next week, is composed of exercises that combine rest-pause sets (ex. 7 sets of 5 reps, 20 sec rest between sets, I do it twice and a lot of drop sets, I don’t have all the details with me here but, If you want I can post it later. My last work out was a bulgarian type.

Oh BTW, thanks for your help and encouragement !


#12

15lbs in 3 weeks?

You are sound mate - fucking sorted!

;D


#13

certainly not 15 lbs of fat, but I take it. I’m happy about it.