T Nation

Mental Perception vs Ability

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol2no2/html/v02i2a07p_0001.htm

[quote]Perception is demonstrated to have occurred below the threshold of conscious sensory experience when a person responds to a stimulus too weak in intensity or too short in duration for him to be aware of it. Individual behavior without awareness of the stimulus, of which subliminal perception is a subtype, has been a subject of study in psychological laboratories for at least 70 years, and a great deal of technical data has been collected on the subject. Recently it has been associated with some theories of depth analysis and popularized for possible commercial exploitation by the advertising world.

In the most sensational of these popularized experiments, an increase in popcorn sales in a New Jersey movie theater is said to have been stimulated by subliminal interruptions of the feature film with an advertisement urging the patrons to buy popcorn. The exposure time used, a small fraction of a second, was too brief for conscious discrimination by an observer absorbed in the film story but presumably long enough to have some stimulating effect. The advertising men who are currently interested in this phenomenon as a sales technique argue that the short-duration stimulus appeals to a positive motive, for example an appetite for popcorn, without arousing the rational, conscious sales-resistance of the individual, based perhaps on the desire to save money or lose weight.[/quote]

Apparently, if it is that easy to influence human thought, do people really still believe that a perceived limit will not affect them at all?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Question, do you think that your perception of what is possible has any affect at all on what you can achieve?[/quote]
I think there is a thread somewhere on T-Nation about this I will see if I can find it

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
no, I still try as hard as I can anyway[/quote]

Question, if someone told you daily that you were stupid growing up, do you think this would affect how you thought of your own mental ability?[/quote]

I’m familiar with the Rosenthal study posted earlier, it’s an awesome study and definitely supports the idea that Prof X is driving at.

However, I really don’t think that it’ll work for everyone. Some people are quite suggestible and submissive, not to mention defeatist, so they’ll hear talk of their limits and it’ll definitely affect them negatively.

Others, however, are more non-conformist and will most likely say “fuck you” to the people imposing limits on them and just achieve to the best of their ability anyway. They might surpass the proposed limit, they might not, but they won’t care about it or allow it to affect them.

Then there’s those who might try even harder to surpass the proposed limit, just to really stick it to those who are trying to impose the limit. We’ll call these the “challenge accepted” group.

I consider myself to be part of the second group.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

However, I really don’t think that it’ll work for everyone. Some people are quite suggestible and submissive, not to mention defeatist, so they’ll hear talk of their limits and it’ll definitely affect them negatively.

Others, however, are more non-conformist and will most likely say “fuck you” to the people imposing limits on them and just achieve to the best of their ability anyway. They might surpass the proposed limit, they might not, but they won’t care about it or allow it to affect them.

Then there’s those who might try even harder to surpass the proposed limit, just to really stick it to those who are trying to impose the limit. We’ll call these the “challenge accepted” group.

I consider myself to be part of the second group.[/quote]

The “groups” you mentioned though wold only be separated by the environment and people who raised them.

For instance, the man who was raised with his parents praising his achievements and not restricting possibilities may be more likely to laugh at supposed limits than the child who grew up being told they were not worth anything.

One again, the perceived limit can hold them back. It is simply whether someone once told them that is all there is or not.

So, in effect, will telling someone just starting that they have a literal specific limit have any negative effect on what they can achieve?

Notice the issue is the NEWB and not the person who has trained long enough to establish their own personal ideas of what they can do based on their actual feats.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
“In summary, the evidence produced thus far supports the use of imagery to benefit performance. Research has shown that imagery can produce better performance outcomes and have a positive effect on anxiety, motivation, and self-efficacy.”

Morris, Tony, Michael Spittle and Anthony P. Watt. Imagery in Sport. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics, 2005.[/quote]

So imagining a positive outcome actually produced a more positive outcome.

I have seen people laughing at this idea lately. Why is it people involved with bodybuilding/weightlifting have accepted such a defeatist attitude lately?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, there is in fact a spoon. [/quote]

‘There is no spoon’ implies that, despite all visual, physical, or mental evidence to the contrary, the thing in question does not exist.

Could this idea ever refer to past social limitations placed on people due to sex or race?[/quote]

what the hell does that have to do with me wanting to be bigger stronger and leaner Dr. Phill?

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, there is in fact a spoon. [/quote]

‘There is no spoon’ implies that, despite all visual, physical, or mental evidence to the contrary, the thing in question does not exist.

Could this idea ever refer to past social limitations placed on people due to sex or race?[/quote]

what the hell does that have to do with me wanting to be bigger stronger and leaner Dr. Phill? [/quote]

I thought it was obvious…but to explain, those social limitations were not physical limits actually based on “ability”. They were based on a concept but still limited human action and achievement because of what was believed…some having issues that reciprocated for generations based only on belief.

If your goal is truly to become big and strong enough to stand out among others who lift, then it is least likely you will get there believing that it is “near impossible” the entire time.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, in effect, will telling someone just starting that they have a literal specific limit have any negative effect on what they can achieve?

[/quote]

In my opinion, with regard to strength training, I think probably not.

My reasoning is that most people will not train or diet anywhere near hard enough to ever reach the limit, assuming that a limit even exists, and the sort of person who would train hard enough to reach or break a limit is going to be so self-motivated that telling them there’s a limit wouldn’t matter to them anyway.

Just my opinion, based entirely on what I think is “common sense”…

I tried to find the post so I could actually quote it, but there were SO MANY POSTS, scattered over SEVERAL THREADS that were being posted on at once, it would take me a few hours unless I just got lucky.

So I’ll paraphrase:

Professor X wrote: I don’t even post here much lately.

ORLY?

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
no, I still try as hard as I can anyway[/quote]

Question, if someone told you daily that you were stupid growing up, do you think this would affect how you thought of your own mental ability?[/quote]

Some people are quite suggestible and submissive, not to mention defeatist, so they’ll hear talk of their limits and it’ll definitely affect them negatively.
[/quote]
You mean teachers?

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, in effect, will telling someone just starting that they have a literal specific limit have any negative effect on what they can achieve?

[/quote]

In my opinion, with regard to strength training, I think probably not.

My reasoning is that most people will not train or diet anywhere near hard enough to ever reach the limit, assuming that a limit even exists, and the sort of person who would train hard enough to reach or break a limit is going to be so self-motivated that telling them there’s a limit wouldn’t matter to them anyway.

Just my opinion, based entirely on what I think is “common sense”…[/quote]

My concern is that someone with the potential will fall in line with the “no one can do this” crowd and hold themselves back.

I agree with you that most people in the gym will never come anywhere near pushing hard enough…which is one reason I don’t understand the desire to spread word of a specific limit. If so few people will ever push hard enough to reach it, why even worry about telling them a “limit”?

I mean, is it really because people fear someone trying too hard? I mean seriously? Because of all of the overachievers?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, there is in fact a spoon. [/quote]

‘There is no spoon’ implies that, despite all visual, physical, or mental evidence to the contrary, the thing in question does not exist.

Could this idea ever refer to past social limitations placed on people due to sex or race?[/quote]

what the hell does that have to do with me wanting to be bigger stronger and leaner Dr. Phill? [/quote]

I thought it was obvious…but to explain, those social limitations were not physical limits actually based on “ability”. They were based on a concept but still limited human action and achievement because of what was believed…some having issues that reciprocated for generations based only on belief.

If your goal is truly to become big and strong enough to stand out among others who lift, then it is least likely you will get there believing that it is “near impossible” the entire time.[/quote]

Why do you feel the only way to stand out or be impressive is to weigh alot? Some of the most impressive guys I have ever seen are closer to 180 then 280. See that is the thing, “impressive” is a subjective term. Everyone else seems to be able to agree on that aside from you.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, in effect, will telling someone just starting that they have a literal specific limit have any negative effect on what they can achieve?

[/quote]

In my opinion, with regard to strength training, I think probably not.

My reasoning is that most people will not train or diet anywhere near hard enough to ever reach the limit, assuming that a limit even exists, and the sort of person who would train hard enough to reach or break a limit is going to be so self-motivated that telling them there’s a limit wouldn’t matter to them anyway.

Just my opinion, based entirely on what I think is “common sense”…[/quote]

My concern is that someone with the potential will fall in line with the “no one can do this” crowd and hold themselves back.

I agree with you that most people in the gym will never come anywhere near pushing hard enough…which is one reason I don’t understand the desire to spread word of a specific limit. If so few people will ever push hard enough to reach it, why even worry about telling them a “limit”?

I mean, is it really because people fear someone trying too hard? I mean seriously? Because of all of the overachievers?
[/quote]

I find it quite funny to have read countless posts from you saying “maybe you’re not cut out for this”, then read what you just wrote.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, in effect, will telling someone just starting that they have a literal specific limit have any negative effect on what they can achieve?

[/quote]

In my opinion, with regard to strength training, I think probably not.

My reasoning is that most people will not train or diet anywhere near hard enough to ever reach the limit, assuming that a limit even exists, and the sort of person who would train hard enough to reach or break a limit is going to be so self-motivated that telling them there’s a limit wouldn’t matter to them anyway.

Just my opinion, based entirely on what I think is “common sense”…[/quote]

My concern is that someone with the potential will fall in line with the “no one can do this” crowd and hold themselves back.

[/quote]

Also, Captain Outliar doesnt care about your concerns. If this mythical being does enter, or already has entered the gene pool, their success in muscle growth will be whatever they want it to be. Not really joking here with this point.

The fact that this ‘sport’ has little monitary compensation, they are more at ‘risk’ to be ‘held back’ by more appealing or fruitful lifestyles then worry about being the worlds most muscular man. They will probly play ball and make straight cash homey.

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, there is in fact a spoon. [/quote]

‘There is no spoon’ implies that, despite all visual, physical, or mental evidence to the contrary, the thing in question does not exist.

Could this idea ever refer to past social limitations placed on people due to sex or race?[/quote]

what the hell does that have to do with me wanting to be bigger stronger and leaner Dr. Phill? [/quote]

I thought it was obvious…but to explain, those social limitations were not physical limits actually based on “ability”. They were based on a concept but still limited human action and achievement because of what was believed…some having issues that reciprocated for generations based only on belief.

If your goal is truly to become big and strong enough to stand out among others who lift, then it is least likely you will get there believing that it is “near impossible” the entire time.[/quote]

Why do you feel the only way to stand out or be impressive is to weigh alot? Some of the most impressive guys I have ever seen are closer to 180 then 280. See that is the thing, “impressive” is a subjective term. Everyone else seems to be able to agree on that aside from you.

[/quote]

I would imagine that if someone felt that way, it would be due to never getting rid of inferiority issues.

[quote]Waittz wrote:

Why do you feel the only way to stand out or be impressive is to weigh alot? Some of the most impressive guys I have ever seen are closer to 180 then 280. See that is the thing, “impressive” is a subjective term. Everyone else seems to be able to agree on that aside from you.

[/quote]

My mistake. I figured it was understood the issue was gaining a lot of muscle mass and not simply genetic shape.

Weight alone is not the issue.

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, in effect, will telling someone just starting that they have a literal specific limit have any negative effect on what they can achieve?

[/quote]

In my opinion, with regard to strength training, I think probably not.

My reasoning is that most people will not train or diet anywhere near hard enough to ever reach the limit, assuming that a limit even exists, and the sort of person who would train hard enough to reach or break a limit is going to be so self-motivated that telling them there’s a limit wouldn’t matter to them anyway.

Just my opinion, based entirely on what I think is “common sense”…[/quote]

My concern is that someone with the potential will fall in line with the “no one can do this” crowd and hold themselves back.

I agree with you that most people in the gym will never come anywhere near pushing hard enough…which is one reason I don’t understand the desire to spread word of a specific limit. If so few people will ever push hard enough to reach it, why even worry about telling them a “limit”?

I mean, is it really because people fear someone trying too hard? I mean seriously? Because of all of the overachievers?
[/quote]

I find it quite funny to have read countless posts from you saying “maybe you’re not cut out for this”, then read what you just wrote.[/quote]

For real. With all the negativity PX has spread on this site over the years, who knows how many people he has limited.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

Why do you feel the only way to stand out or be impressive is to weigh alot? Some of the most impressive guys I have ever seen are closer to 180 then 280. See that is the thing, “impressive” is a subjective term. Everyone else seems to be able to agree on that aside from you.

[/quote]

My mistake. I figured it was understood the issue was gaining a lot of muscle mass and not simply genetic shape.

Weight alone is not the issue.[/quote]

Gotcha, but again isnt ‘a lot’ also subjective and relative to the audiance and person?

Let’s take you and I for example. I am 5’7" on a good day. I have tiny bird joints as well. 5lbs of muscle or LBM added to me is a much bigger deal and have a bigger effect than on someone your height and frame.

I guess what I am trying to say is it is all subjective and relative. Nobody is right or wrong because we are dealing with a subject where the result is opinion based with no standard. So continual arguing detracts from the main concept of this subforum.

Look PX’s concern is that someone with the potential will fall in line with the “no one can do this” crowd and hold themselves back. See his is an altruistic superhero stance against the naysayers and beta males around here. He will be remembered as a demi god to those who are yet to come not some boring as fuck argumentative prick like some here would have you believe

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

Why do you feel the only way to stand out or be impressive is to weigh alot? Some of the most impressive guys I have ever seen are closer to 180 then 280. See that is the thing, “impressive” is a subjective term. Everyone else seems to be able to agree on that aside from you.

[/quote]

My mistake. I figured it was understood the issue was gaining a lot of muscle mass and not simply genetic shape.

Weight alone is not the issue.[/quote]

Gotcha, but again isnt ‘a lot’ also subjective and relative to the audiance and person?

Let’s take you and I for example. I am 5’7" on a good day. I have tiny bird joints as well. 5lbs of muscle or LBM added to me is a much bigger deal and have a bigger effect than on someone your height and frame.

I guess what I am trying to say is it is all subjective and relative. Nobody is right or wrong because we are dealing with a subject where the result is opinion based with no standard. So continual arguing detracts from the main concept of this subforum. [/quote]

Adding a certain amount of muscle is not “subjective” thus why I mentioned weight. Hope that clears that up for you.