I agree. Any volunteer army is a mercenary army. Look at the people serving in the military now. There’s a huge disproportion of low income minorities serving in the military compared with the rest of the population. Why should somebody from a low income family have to send there kids to the military when the kids from higher income families get to go to some ivy league school just because their mommy and daddy can afford it? I think everyone should serve their country in some type of service whether it be community service or military. Israel’s policy is a good one.
[quote]BH6 wrote:
The “Backdoor Draft” is a load of crap. It is clearly stated in our enlistment papers that you will serve a designated number of years in the inactive reserve after your discharge, and during that period you will be subject to recall. Whiney fuckers who didn’t read their enlistment or discharge documents like to cry about it. […]
Oh yeah, I can speak pretty well for most of the military and say that we don’t want the draft. We don’t need every joe from the street coming into the military. At least we can screen out some of the idiots and criminals before they get to bootcamp.[/quote]
It’s not so much the whiney fuckers that are the problem, it’s everybody who’s NOT enlisting because they’re now hep to the fact that it means an 8 year hitch with five turns on the barbie.
If you’re in the military, then brace up, soldier. It’s never about what the military wants, it’s always about what the country needs. Definition of ‘military’, period.
We’re scraping bottom on manpower in the glorious volunteer military. Recruitment is such a problem, they’re not turning anybody away right now. On the contrary, recruiters have taken to hanging out around special ed classes. Your ‘screen’ is nonsense.
On the other hand, a draft doesn’t mean everybody goes into the service; the military can pick and choose who goes. That’s why the draft was called the “Selective Service.”
Either Bush is reined in, or you’re going to have to live with draftees in your midst. Like it or not. You may think this is just a stunt by Rangel, but if Bush decides to attack Iran, or go postal in Afghanistan, just wait and see what happens next.
Myself, I’d rather go with an all-volunteer force and less adventurism.
Are you fucking people serious? The draft turns us all from citizens into subjects. You and I are sovereign individuals and citizens, not slaves!
mike
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Are you fucking people serious? The draft turns us all from citizens into subjects. You and I are sovereign individuals and citizens, not slaves!
mike[/quote]
Do you pay taxes? Why? If you’re not a ‘slave’ to this country why do you pay taxes? You pay them because the roads you drive on, the military that protects you, the firemen and police that serve you - all cost money. And society as a whole has decided that everyone has a responsibility to pay taxes to contribute to this society.
So why do you think mandatory military or a civil service is ‘slavery’ when paying taxes isn’t? You’re getting paid for the service plus benefits for college so the comparison to slavery is a bit of a stretch.
Society is not a slave to you either but I bet when you call the police you expect them to show up. Or that the interstates you drive on are better than driving in Tijuana. Or when you flush the toilet your shit actually goes somewhere to get treated instead of spilling outside on the sidewalk.
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Are you fucking people serious? The draft turns us all from citizens into subjects. You and I are sovereign individuals and citizens, not slaves!
[/quote]
You’re already a subject. Lately you don’t even have habeas corpus rights if the President says the magic words. A citizen you may be, but a sovereign individual you’re not. For that one you have to be a working royal. Notice that the Queen of England’s cars and limos never have license plates: that’s what it means to be sovereign. You embody the state and the law doesn’t apply to you. In the states here we’re only ever collectively sovereign.
If drafted, you would remain a citizen but become subject to military law (warning: this is a lot nastier than the civilian sort). Is it involuntary servitude? You bet your bippy. You could also get a nice case of lead poisoning. Unconstitutional? Absolutely. Positively. Will the Supremes ever hear that case? Haw! Ha haha hahahah! Heh heh.
I remember in the 1960’s when they did away with student deferments. They held a draft lottery every year to determine the group that inductees were to be selected from. If your number came up, the next step was you had to report for a draft physical.
I remember there was a lot of talk in those days about the revolution a’comin. The mutterings got especially loud around the times of the lotteries. But in the end nothing ever happened, except LBJ had to go to the showers early. Everybody grew up and became stockbrokers and stuff, and lived happily ever after. The ones that didn’t get drafted, I mean.
Hey, instead of having a draft, how about we stop getting involved in unnecessary wars? What a novel idea! I love how they talk about Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Iran, then Korea; then act as if it’s our fault the president got our shit all fucked up.
The part about the president being less likely to get involved in wars with a draft is ridiculous, and maybe even an intentional lie, there have always been ways to get the important people out of the draft.
Fact is I don’t remember the last time we had a president I would want to serve under.
[quote]jason1122 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
Are you fucking people serious? The draft turns us all from citizens into subjects. You and I are sovereign individuals and citizens, not slaves!
mike
Do you pay taxes? Why? If you’re not a ‘slave’ to this country why do you pay taxes?
[/quote]
I do pay taxes and still consider direct taxation a form of slavery, albeit a slightly less evil one. I currently pay taxes because 1) I believe in some of what it is used for (thus meaning I am purchasing a product and 2) I meekly wish not to go to jail for this one.
The only thing the police have served me is speeding tickets. That which protects me isn’t a cop (who 99% of the time shows up AFTER a violent crime has been committed) but rather the .40 S&W Beretta on my hip and a little bit of luck.
That which society deems necessary and that which is a violation of natural rights as stated in the spirit and letter of the constitution is quite often at odds. Unfortunately Madison and Hamiliton succeeded in making that piece of paper impotent, putting us at the sorry state we are in today. [quote]
So why do you think mandatory military or a civil service is ‘slavery’ when paying taxes isn’t? [/quote]
I do [quote]
You’re getting paid for the service plus benefits for college so the comparison to slavery is a bit of a stretch. [/quote]
Do you really think a sweet ass GI Bill will be affordable when EVERYONE is being made to serve?
[quote]
Society is not a slave to you either but I bet when you call the police you expect them to show up. Or that the interstates you drive on are better than driving in Tijuana. Or when you flush the toilet your shit actually goes somewhere to get treated instead of spilling outside on the sidewalk. [/quote]
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.–William Pitt
Yes, I expect the police to show up so long as they are pulling a paycheck. Again, I reiterate however that they show up AFTER a crime, rarely during. I will readily concede public works, though for some reason there was little problem funding them before a direct income tax was imposed upon us.
mike
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
Are you fucking people serious? The draft turns us all from citizens into subjects. You and I are sovereign individuals and citizens, not slaves!
You’re already a subject. Lately you don’t even have habeas corpus rights if the President says the magic words. [/quote]
Agreed. I cannot argue with that. Does this mean however that we should all just give up and go home?[quote]
If drafted, you would remain a citizen but become subject to military law (warning: this is a lot nastier than the civilian sort). Is it involuntary servitude? You bet your bippy. You could also get a nice case of lead poisoning.
[/quote]
I am quite familiar with the UCMJ as I served 5 years in the corps through OIF-II and OEF-P. I fought because I believed in liberty and justice for all. This same concern for liberty has me OUT of the military now because it seems the greatest battles are apparently here at our doorstep instead of in far off lands. [quote]
I remember there was a lot of talk in those days about the revolution a’comin. The mutterings got especially loud around the times of the lotteries. But in the end nothing ever happened, except LBJ had to go to the showers early.
[/quote]
I fear you may be right. Most of today’s Americans are fat, lazy and cowardly. They will accept the draft if our “representatives” pass it just as we will line up and get our National ID card in '08. Just so long as they don’t cancel American Idol and Dancing with the Stars the sheep will march right off the cliff on command. I think I must go crack a Sam Adams now with the hopes that there will be enough brave souls to resist when the time comes.
mike
Dem Logic: Defend the country of Freedom by enslaving a portion of its citizenry. Subject them to possible dismemberment and death against their will.
Everytime the Dems do something, they expose themselves for the criminals and cretins they are.
Just curious: didn’t you guys who voted for these ‘people’ realize you were buying a package deal? Howard, Nancy, Hillary, Charles, the whole tribe comes along with the congress-things you voted for.
Surprise, Surprise, SURPRISE, Gomer!! There ARE consequences to your actions…
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
Anybody who believes in American hegemony, America the World’s Policeman, America the Super-Power, and all that jazz should be prepared to pay increased taxes and submit themselves for conscription. Otherwise, there’s just no way forward with any of those agendas.
Alternatively, I 'spose, one could just stop thumping one’s chest quite so much.
[/quote]
Britain was the world’s hegemonic power from 1815 until 1914, about the time they were eclipsed economically by the German Empire. Did they have a draft?
Draft armies are obsolete. The scale of warfare is devolving into regional conflicts, as smaller groups can now afford and obtain the means to defend themselves. If they want to boil 6000 human hearts and drink the liquid (the brits actually conquered a tribe that did this) or throw widows onto the hubby’s funeral pyre, they could probably get away with it. Stinger missiles and suicide bombers make intelligent intervention into the actions of barbarians unlikely.
Someone will soon develop new offensive weaponry to restore peace and order, probably something in nanotech. Draft armies are like draft horses — obsolete.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
When my country holds a bayonet to my back to get me to fight, it is no longer my country anymore…[/quote]
Yeah. Today’s 18-25 crowd won’t fight. Oh, unless it’s for a Playstation 3, that is!
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
endgamer711 wrote:
Anybody who believes in American hegemony, America the World’s Policeman, America the Super-Power, and all that jazz should be prepared to pay increased taxes and submit themselves for conscription. Otherwise, there’s just no way forward with any of those agendas.
Alternatively, I 'spose, one could just stop thumping one’s chest quite so much.
Britain was the world’s hegemonic power from 1815 until 1914, about the time they were eclipsed economically by the German Empire. Did they have a draft?
Draft armies are obsolete. The scale of warfare is devolving into regional conflicts, as smaller groups can now afford and obtain the means to defend themselves. If they want to boil 6000 human hearts and drink the liquid (the brits actually conquered a tribe that did this) or throw widows onto the hubby’s funeral pyre, they could probably get away with it. Stinger missiles and suicide bombers make intelligent intervention into the actions of barbarians unlikely.
Someone will soon develop new offensive weaponry to restore peace and order, probably something in nanotech. Draft armies are like draft horses — obsolete.
[/quote]
Yes, britian did have a draft, but most of their soldiers were proffessional soldiers. They also hired mercenaries. They also stopped American merchant ships and press-ganged American civilian sailors into serving aboard british warships
Pure strategy to get more people against the war, while at the same time getting more troops ready for our war with Iran and North Korea.
[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
When my country holds a bayonet to my back to get me to fight, it is no longer my country anymore…
Yeah. Today’s 18-25 crowd won’t fight. Oh, unless it’s for a Playstation 3, that is![/quote]
What a shame. Who in the heck taught todays youth to think for themselves, and to make sure that they agreed with a conflict and deemed it worth of spilling their blood over before they join up.
I sure hope we can bring back the good old days of blind unthinking obedience to the government, like at buchenwald and aushcwitz. Makes me kind of nostalgic.
I really think that not enough manpower is the problem. If we had more troops in iraq, we would be able to find those weapons of mass destruction.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Someone will soon develop new offensive weaponry to restore peace and order, probably something in nanotech. \
[/quote]
Everytime I think you might have a point, you spring something completely nonsensical like this.
[quote]BarneyFife wrote:
Yes, britian did have a draft, but most of their soldiers were proffessional soldiers. They also hired mercenaries. They also stopped American merchant ships and press-ganged American civilian sailors into serving aboard british warships
[/quote]
Even post-1815? I didn’t know.
[quote]BarneyFife wrote:
Hack Wilson wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
When my country holds a bayonet to my back to get me to fight, it is no longer my country anymore…
Yeah. Today’s 18-25 crowd won’t fight. Oh, unless it’s for a Playstation 3, that is!
What a shame. Who in the heck taught todays youth to think for themselves, and to make sure that they agreed with a conflict and deemed it worth of spilling their blood over before they join up.
I sure hope we can bring back the good old days of blind unthinking obedience to the government, like at buchenwald and aushcwitz. Makes me kind of nostalgic.
I really think that not enough manpower is the problem. If we had more troops in iraq, we would be able to find those weapons of mass destruction.[/quote]
Oh. Sorry. I thought we were talking about govenment in AMERICA!? I realize that Bushitler is a tyrant and that US government’s overall legacy is one of murder and corruption (please note that this is SARCASM), but last I checked it was our elightened, anti-war and VERY European friends in Germany that murdered the Jews in concentration camps.
Look, Barney. Being a cowhard is not something to be ashamed of. Embrace it. It’s who you are. It’s your generation’s legacy (that and Jerry Springer). It’s why you want to be a cop.
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Are you fucking people serious? The draft turns us all from citizens into subjects. You and I are sovereign individuals and citizens, not slaves!
mike[/quote]
For what its worth, the U.S. Supreme Court has determined Selective Service is constitutional.
With regard to the issue of whether a draft imposes involuntary servitude in violation of the 13th Amendment of the constitution, the court stated (albeit obtusely)"
“Finally, as we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.”
So lets say you did get drafted, right now into the Army. Here is what you would get.
Pay: As an E-1 (lowest rank) $14,137.2 a year before taxes for the first 4 months of active service. That bumps up to 15,282 a year after that 4 months and then to 17,128 a year after about 9 months when you pick up E-2.
This is just your base pay.
You will also get a housing allowance if you are married or you are an unmarried parent (your kid rates military benefits). If you are from my area, that is an extra $1614.00 a month tax free. This amount increases as you get promoted.
You will also get family seperation pay for $250 a month if you are married or you have a kid and deployed as well as hazardous duty pay of $225 more a month when you are deployed to a war zone.
Your pay is completely tax free in a war zone, so an E-2 in Iraq that is married (or has a child) from the D.C. area can pull down about 20,000 a year tax free.
Medical Benefits: Comprehensive medical, comprehensive dental with a yearly checkup, all at no cost to you. Comprehensive medical for your spouse and children.
Insurance Benefits: Very low cost life insurance that is up to about 300,000 coverage on you and your spouse.
Retirement Benefits: you are eligible for retirement at 20 years of active service. You can also contribute to the Thrift Savings Plan which works like an IRA. That money is available to you without doing the 20 years.
Uniform Allowance: You get a yearly 250 dollar or so allowance for purchasing uniforms, which are issued to you for free at your initial entry training.
Raises: You will get a yearly raise of at least 2-3 % plus a raise for every two years of active service.
Promotion: You will be eligible for promotion up to about E-3 or E-4 by the time you are done with your draft service. You can go higher if you really apply yourself.
Meals: Eating in the chow hall is free.
Education: Education benefits vary by service, but the Army is giving away about 30,000 for college at the end of your tour if you sign up for the Montgomery GI Bill program (you contribute 1200 dollars, the VA matches with 10,000 and then the Army kicks in the rest)
While you are on active service there a numerous tuition assistance programs that will pay for you to get a college degree.
Veterans Benefits: You will be eligible for VA benefits at the completion of 6 months of active duty. If you are wounded severly, you will be given medical benefits from the VA for the rest of your life, regardless of your time in service.
And that is about all I can think of off the top of my head. Hardly slavery, which would imply you work with no compensation.
[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
BarneyFife wrote:
Hack Wilson wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
When my country holds a bayonet to my back to get me to fight, it is no longer my country anymore…
Yeah. Today’s 18-25 crowd won’t fight. Oh, unless it’s for a Playstation 3, that is!
What a shame. Who in the heck taught todays youth to think for themselves, and to make sure that they agreed with a conflict and deemed it worth of spilling their blood over before they join up.
I sure hope we can bring back the good old days of blind unthinking obedience to the government, like at buchenwald and aushcwitz. Makes me kind of nostalgic.
I really think that not enough manpower is the problem. If we had more troops in iraq, we would be able to find those weapons of mass destruction.
Oh. Sorry. I thought we were talking about govenment in AMERICA!? I realize that Bushitler is a tyrant and that US government’s overall legacy is one of murder and corruption (please note that this is SARCASM), but last I checked it was our elightened, anti-war and VERY European friends in Germany that murdered the Jews in concentration camps.
Look, Barney. Being a cowhard is not something to be ashamed of. Embrace it. It’s who you are. It’s your generation’s legacy (that and Jerry Springer). It’s why you want to be a cop.[/quote]
I was turned down for ROTC. I have no intention to enlist, when I have already tried to join on my terms. I had everything I needed to get an rotc scholarship. I had a letter of recomendation from a kansas senator, a 31 on my act, (which puts me in the golden area on the charts for ROTC service), passed the pt tests with flying colors, and had all the other letters of recomendation that I needed.
The recruiter told me I wouldn’t get into rotc because I was not black or female (he used much more colorful terms, a smart man like you can figure it out).
I thought he was full of crap, after all he wasn’t the one making the decision, there is a board that does that. I then got a letter saying that I had been turned down for an rotc slot. Why in the hell should I enlist when I have already been turned down for something that I was well qualified for?