T Nation

Medical Field/Drugs and Death


#1

thoughts? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhj3u3LoooM#!

Too sensationalist or something that deserves greater attention/uproar?


#2

Until a rifle does open heart surgery or a shotgun sets a broken bone I will withhold judgement.


#3

Meh…too sensationalist and lots of silly comparisons. I agree with the main ideas of the videos(mostly that these drugs are potentially dangerous and the doctors that prescribe them are absolutely compensated for doing so), but you can’t make a comparison between doctors and prescription drugs and senseless killings by crazy people. The two are absolutely not related.

I don’t think you will change anyone’s mind by trying to make an Alex Jones scare tactic video, but I do think that this is something that seriously needs to be looked at in an intelligent manner. A good majority of the population believes that anyone and everyone in medicine is some god like entity that can do no wrong, when in reality it’s a business just like anything else and the first priority of any business is to be profitable.


#4

But a shotgun can cure a headache.


#5

[quote]Cuso wrote:
But a shotgun can cure a headache.[/quote]

You mean it can eradicate the cause of many headaches…


#6

[quote]Nards wrote:

[quote]Cuso wrote:
But a shotgun can cure a headache.[/quote]

You mean it can eradicate the cause of many headaches…[/quote]

I guess it depends on which direction you point it.


#7

[quote]Nards wrote:

[quote]Cuso wrote:
But a shotgun can cure a headache.[/quote]

You mean it can eradicate the cause of many headaches…[/quote]

Maybe a shotgun could fix this problem.


#8

Aw fuck no…


#9

[quote]Nards wrote:
Aw fuck no…[/quote]

What Doctors are dangerous I am sure some trainer or McDonalds employee can fix this guy. It doesnt look that hard.


#10

[quote]i_am_ketosis wrote:

I don’t think you will change anyone’s mind by trying to make an Alex Jones scare tactic video, but I do think that this is something that seriously needs to be looked at in an intelligent manner. A good majority of the population believes that anyone and everyone in medicine is some god like entity that can do no wrong, when in reality it’s a business just like anything else and the first priority of any business is to be profitable. [/quote]

Well said


#11

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
Aw fuck no…[/quote]

What Doctors are dangerous I am sure some trainer or McDonalds employee can fix this guy. It doesnt look that hard. [/quote]

just a flesh wound :smiley:


#12

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]i_am_ketosis wrote:

I don’t think you will change anyone’s mind by trying to make an Alex Jones scare tactic video, but I do think that this is something that seriously needs to be looked at in an intelligent manner. A good majority of the population believes that anyone and everyone in medicine is some god like entity that can do no wrong, when in reality it’s a business just like anything else and the first priority of any business is to be profitable. [/quote]

Well said[/quote]

x2

there is a lot more to that video than we’d like to believe.


#13

I’m so sick of this bullshit. Doctors don’t prescribe drugs for shits and giggles, they do it to decrease the risk of death, quite successfully. How many would die without medicine or surgery?

If you don’t want pharmaceutical companies to bribe doctors, ban it. It works here. Instead, we get the problem of patients being confused by having both original and generic drugs in their homes and they someimes end up taking both, cause that’s what the label says. You get generic drugs by default unless you specifically ask for the original.

This leads to a new problem: The pharmaceutical companies that actually try to develop new drugs, instead of being greedy copy cats like many, don’t get paid. Their research budget shrinks and we see less new drugs. And the few new drugs they do invent are seldom used because they’re so expensive. So why would they research a new drug in the future?

If anyone were to develop a new antibiotic (the way some people sprinkle vancomycin we’re going to need it) they wouldn’t get paid for years because we’d save it until it was our last option. An industry that saves lives is constantly being shit on by self proclaimed experts who can’t see the big picture.

I’m all for exercise and diet before blood pressure meds and statins, checking for interactions between meds, evidence based medicine and cheap angiotensin receptor antagonists, but this black and white “evil big pharma” shit is getting old.


#14

[quote]kakno wrote:
I’m so sick of this bullshit. Doctors don’t prescribe drugs for shits and giggles, they do it to decrease the risk of death, quite successfully. How many would die without medicine or surgery?

If you don’t want pharmaceutical companies to bribe doctors, ban it. It works here. Instead, we get the problem of patients being confused by having both original and generic drugs in their homes and they someimes end up taking both, cause that’s what the label says. You get generic drugs by default unless you specifically ask for the original.

This leads to a new problem: The pharmaceutical companies that actually try to develop new drugs, instead of being greedy copy cats like many, don’t get paid. Their research budget shrinks and we see less new drugs. And the few new drugs they do invent are seldom used because they’re so expensive. So why would they research a new drug in the future?

If anyone were to develop a new antibiotic (the way some people sprinkle vancomycin we’re going to need it) they wouldn’t get paid for years because we’d save it until it was our last option. An industry that saves lives is constantly being shit on by self proclaimed experts who can’t see the big picture.

I’m all for exercise and diet before blood pressure meds and statins, checking for interactions between meds, evidence based medicine and cheap angiotensin receptor antagonists, but this black and white “evil big pharma” shit is getting old.[/quote]

Sing it brother, sing it.

Great post


#15

those on the inside will never get it, will never see what’s behind the curtain…

those on the outside will most likely not have the whole story and over exaggerate their stance.

classic case of people only looking at things through their eyes.

The point is, the system has severe flaws and people are dying because of greed and egos, there is no denying this. Big Pharma has knowingly caused deaths and hidden the facts, with only a fines that fail in comparison to the revenue that was made.

Of course, all this will not be heard since people like to thing everything is hunky dorey and the ends justify the means. Maybe if one of their relatives or someone close to them were negatively effected it would give a different perspective.


#16

[quote]kakno wrote:
I’m so sick of this bullshit. Doctors don’t prescribe drugs for shits and giggles, they do it to decrease the risk of death, quite successfully.[/quote]

Medications are also often prescribed because the doctor feels “pressured” into it by the patient, who comes to the office/clinic with the expectation that there will be a pill for whatever ails him/her. A classic example would be in the case of antibiotics, where (for example), it is easier to just prescribe an ophthalmic ab ointment for every instance of pinkeye than it is to argue with an entitled patient over the difference between viral/allergic/bacterial cases and convince him/her of the limited therapeutic efficacy of antibiotics across all common causes.

Most people want to leave their doc thinking they are getting fixed, and the easiest way to make that happen is via a prescription. Being told to “wait and see” if something resolves on its own, or to “eat right, exercise and quit smoking” doesn’t usually cut it and many patients leave feeling gypped out of their copay.

This is not to place the blame on the physician, “Big Pharma” or any single patient, but it is a reflection of society’s attitude towards “quick fixes”, “instant results” and really just a poor education (e.g., the clinical significance of a viral/bacterial infection wrt pharmaceutical interventions would fly over the head of most people, despite the fact that any 8th grader could be made to understand it).


#17

As for the widespread “dangers” of prescription medication in general, it should at least be MENTIONED that, by and large, the bulk of ADEs occur in the elderly population. Why is this? Because they have more ailments than the rest of us, are subsequently on more medications, and are oftentimes in a position of compromised mental faculties that makes it not at all uncommon for them to screw up their medication schedule (e.g., forgetting they already took their Warfarin). They are also living with an oftentimes rapidly declining physiology that impacts the effects/risks of these medications.

Factoring in diminishing pt reimbursements, overworked doctors rushing to keep up with an ever-increasing pt load might miss out on contraindications present in the cocktails these seniors run on.

Now, if take all these people with all these ailments on all these drugs, toss in genetic variations resulting in different pharmacokinetics (ADME) or pharmacodynamics (receptors, enzymes, etc), we will wind up with a lot of people who will simply not respond to any given drug the way a “typical” person might… and this is something that is still decades away from being fully understood (pharmacogenetics/genomics).

This is not a conspiracy by Big Pharma - it is simply the result of a larger and larger population reaching a longer average lifespan and accruing more comorbidities along the way (yes, some of it is lifestyle, but the body DOES degenerate all on its very own). Note that most ADEs seen during hospital stays (in 2004) occurred when drugs were properly administered - and, again, this typically occurred in the 60+ crowd.

I’ve always liked the way Sir William Osler put it: “If it were not for the great variability among individuals, medicine might as well be a science, not an art.”

sauce:


#18

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:

[quote]Cuso wrote:
But a shotgun can cure a headache.[/quote]

You mean it can eradicate the cause of many headaches…[/quote]

Maybe a shotgun could fix this problem.[/quote]

Awesome shot.


#19

I particularly enjoy how the guy asks, “If a massacre of people using slugs of lead is bad… why is a massacre of people using deadly chemicals perfectly acceptable??”

You know, the implication being that doctors are NOT walking a tightrope with patient care, with every move being scrutinized under a microscope by patients and lawyers looking to see if money can’t be squeezed out of any medical decision that doesn’t go 100%.

They simply CAN’T get into ANY trouble by NOT taking their patients’ health seriously… because, remember, it is “perfectly acceptable” to massacre them all with deadly chemicals.


#20

[quote]kakno wrote:
I’m so sick of this bullshit. Doctors don’t prescribe drugs for shits and giggles, they do it to decrease the risk of death, quite successfully. How many would die without medicine or surgery?

If you don’t want pharmaceutical companies to bribe doctors, ban it. It works here. Instead, we get the problem of patients being confused by having both original and generic drugs in their homes and they someimes end up taking both, cause that’s what the label says. You get generic drugs by default unless you specifically ask for the original.

This leads to a new problem: The pharmaceutical companies that actually try to develop new drugs, instead of being greedy copy cats like many, don’t get paid. Their research budget shrinks and we see less new drugs. And the few new drugs they do invent are seldom used because they’re so expensive. So why would they research a new drug in the future?

If anyone were to develop a new antibiotic (the way some people sprinkle vancomycin we’re going to need it) they wouldn’t get paid for years because we’d save it until it was our last option. An industry that saves lives is constantly being shit on by self proclaimed experts who can’t see the big picture.

I’m all for exercise and diet before blood pressure meds and statins, checking for interactions between meds, evidence based medicine and cheap angiotensin receptor antagonists, but this black and white “evil big pharma” shit is getting old.[/quote]

Finally, a voice of reason on this forum.