personally I see a huge advantange in having a diet where most or all of your diet comes from fruits/vegetables/anything that grows out of the ground.
There are hundreds of nutrients in even a single apple that we have no idea what they do or what they are good for.
Animal products, other than complete protein and a few vitamins and minerals here and there isn’t very micronutrient dense.
nope, how do you like it? I haven’t tried it because last time I ordered protein, which was over a year ago, I was able to get egg/casein/whey for cheaper. I would for sure give hemp and gemma a shot if I was vegan. IMO it’d be really tough to get in a ton of protein as a vegan from only “whole food” sources.
Somewhat related, I’ve seen hemp hearts on sale at costco. It’s obnoxious how stores have marked up flax and hemp seeds since they’ve become “health foods.” They’re absolutely dirt cheap to grow and harvest. I used to get flax seeds at the same price as rice per pound.
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
personally I see a huge advantange in having a diet where most or all of your diet comes from fruits/vegetables/anything that grows out of the ground.
There are hundreds of nutrients in even a single apple that we have no idea what they do or what they are good for.
Animal products, other than complete protein and a few vitamins and minerals here and there isn’t very micronutrient dense.[/quote]
^^^ this. For living a healthy lifetime, it seems pretty damned clear that fruits and veggies are more the key than anything else.
For the OP – Regarding vegan or non-vegan…here’s what you have to remember. Eating a lifetime of french fries, fried in partially hydrogenated cottonseed oil, is 100% vegan. Hell, there are thousands of other absolutely atrocious nutritional combinations that are 100% vegan.
You can be vegan, and a health disaster.
In other words, ignore all the issues about bodybuilding or athletic training in your debate, and focus on what I just said above – it should be pretty easy to demonstrate to your friend that vegan is not the one magical thing that solves all of your health issues and goals.
Rather, it takes intelligent, conscious, consistent choices. Those choices can be vegan, and those choices can include animal products. If your friend thinks that looking for the ‘vegan certified’ label is going to compensate for a lack of nutritional understanding, he is mistaken.
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
Somewhat related, I’ve seen hemp hearts on sale at costco. It’s obnoxious how stores have marked up flax and hemp seeds since they’ve become “health foods.” They’re absolutely dirt cheap to grow and harvest. I used to get flax seeds at the same price as rice per pound.[/quote]
I was thinking about this the other day when the news was talking about the amount of states legalizing weed. I would assume that we will see more and more hemp-products entering the market as states legalize the use of marijuana. Basically the farmer/grower gets to sell the buds as “medicine” then sell the rest of the plant for everything else.
[quote]JLone wrote:
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
Somewhat related, I’ve seen hemp hearts on sale at costco. It’s obnoxious how stores have marked up flax and hemp seeds since they’ve become “health foods.” They’re absolutely dirt cheap to grow and harvest. I used to get flax seeds at the same price as rice per pound.[/quote]
I was thinking about this the other day when the news was talking about the amount of states legalizing weed. I would assume that we will see more and more hemp-products entering the market as states legalize the use of marijuana. Basically the farmer/grower gets to sell the buds as “medicine” then sell the rest of the plant for everything else. [/quote]
You can’t efficiently get marijuana and hempseeds from the same plant, different strains and growing styles.
As for the vegan thing, I have tried it a few times and it sucks. I’ve even had it to the point where the macronutrient ratios were about the same and I was even getting more micronutrients, but being vegan for long fucks me up. Vegan diet, no matter how complete gives me weakness, constipation, bloating, can’t think straight, lose weight(fat and muscle), my metabolism slows down, and my muscles don’t suck up glucose properly.
Any time I’ve been on a vegan diet for long, eating that first piece of eat caused an incredibly powerful endorphin surge, like I got something that I really needed. Eating the meat also caused a direct positive impact on all of the side effects mentioned before. Eggs also, but not powerful. I think there’s more to it than just protein and B vitamins, because I was getting those as a vegan, possibly the long chain fats found in anima foods, but I don’t think it’s as simple as looking at individual nutrients. Foods are greater than the sum of their parts. The longest I ever went was a few months. The occasional juice fast is good though.
[quote]Michael Crehan wrote:
As for the vegan thing, I have tried it a few times and it sucks. I’ve even had it to the point where the macronutrient ratios were about the same and I was even getting more micronutrients, but being vegan for long fucks me up. Vegan diet, no matter how complete gives me weakness, constipation, bloating, can’t think straight, lose weight(fat and muscle), my metabolism slows down, and my muscles don’t suck up glucose properly.
Any time I’ve been on a vegan diet for long, eating that first piece of eat caused an incredibly powerful endorphin surge, like I got something that I really needed. Eating the meat also caused a direct positive impact on all of the side effects mentioned before. Eggs also, but not powerful. I think there’s more to it than just protein and B vitamins, because I was getting those as a vegan, possibly the long chain fats found in anima foods, but I don’t think it’s as simple as looking at individual nutrients. Foods are greater than the sum of their parts. The longest I ever went was a few months. The occasional juice fast is good though.[/quote]
Not that I’m all about veganism and all that gayness, but did you try dramatically increasing your intake of food and caloric intake when going vegan?
Yes, but I couldn’t handle carbs well, even the same carbs I can handle well now and before I tried it. I ate lots of greens and hempseeds like I do now. Hempseeds are high is EFA’s and magnesium and zinc and iron and complete protein. I also ate lots of bee pollen which has complete protein and just about every other nutrient. I ate lots of spirulina which has tons of nutrients as well. I still eat these foods because I can notice improvements in my energy and health, but they don’t cut the vegan mustard like meat does. Meat has preformed cholesterol which is good, and it has heme iron and long chain fats, but like I said before, whole foods are greater than the sum of their parts.
I ate pretty much like I do now, only replacing meat and dairy with more avocados, hemp protein(complete), more nuts, and more greens, I also supplemented with brown rice protein. Still didn’t work. I think that the vegan diet seems healthy in theory, and it would be more sustainable if it worked, but it just didn’t work for me.
We should also note that plants are generally less bioavailable and less digestible.
that’s very interesting Michael. It makes sense that you got weaker.
Looking at hemp protein, it has a lot of fiber, which wouldn’t help my biggest issue with a vegan bodybuilding type diet - too much fiber for too little protein. If I ever gave a vegan diet a try, it would be with a lot of gemma (pea) protein, which seems to have a lot of leucine and low fiber. It looks like gemma is the only vegan protein powder that could compete with milk based powders.
nothing, vegans are like Catholics or any other religion.
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
Not that I’m all about veganism and all that gayness, I just really, really, really love my neon pink shorts.[/quote]
Fixed.
Sorry had to be done. 
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
If I ever gave a vegan diet a try, it would be with a lot of gemma (pea) protein, which seems to have a lot of leucine and low fiber. It looks like gemma is the only vegan protein powder that could compete with milk based powders.[/quote]
Rice protein is also one of the top vegan-approved powders.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
Not that I’m all about veganism and all that gayness, I just really, really, really love my neon pink shorts.[/quote]
Fixed.
Sorry had to be done.
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
If I ever gave a vegan diet a try, it would be with a lot of gemma (pea) protein, which seems to have a lot of leucine and low fiber. It looks like gemma is the only vegan protein powder that could compete with milk based powders.[/quote]
Rice protein is also one of the top vegan-approved powders.[/quote]
lol haha, I’ll allow it.
Too many points to list them all.
In north america most eat meat, most die too early
,tooo many get heart diseases
,too many get high blood pressure
,abuse cafeine
,abuse sugar
maybe the question might have been how will you feel when he outlast you
I am 55, when i was 20 i met a 104 yo man called " Jack Rabbit" he died at 111 the oldest knowned man alive well 3 woman were older. He was sick the last 8 months. At 104 and past that he was canoeing/cross-country skiing, chopping his wood daily his eyes i still remember their spark, his happiness never proved any b12 defeciency and he was a vegan the last half of his life. He built the largest cross-country trails network near Montreal and his advices were exercise frequently, be moderate with alcool and smoking.
I am 55 yo so i met him about 1977.
Some gold medalists are vegans, some are vegeterians and i heard a rumor that maybe some eat meat.
[quote]BHappy wrote:
Too many points to list them all.
In north america most eat meat, most die too early
,tooo many get heart diseases
,too many get high blood pressure
,abuse cafeine
,abuse sugar
maybe the question might have been how will you feel when he outlast you
I am 55, when i was 20 i met a 104 yo man called " Jack Rabbit" he died at 111 the oldest knowned man alive well 3 woman were older. He was sick the last 8 months. At 104 and past that he was canoeing/cross-country skiing, chopping his wood daily his eyes i still remember their spark, his happiness never proved any b12 defeciency and he was a vegan the last half of his life. He built the largest cross-country trails network near Montreal and his advices were exercise frequently, be moderate with alcool and smoking.
I am 55 yo so i met him about 1977.
Some gold medalists are vegans, some are vegeterians and i heard a rumor that maybe some eat
meat.[/quote]
His long lifespan probably had more to do with a hypocaloric diet than with being a vegan.
[quote]BHappy wrote:
Too many points to list them all.
In north america most eat meat, most die too early
,tooo many get heart diseases
,too many get high blood pressure
,abuse cafeine
,abuse sugar
maybe the question might have been how will you feel when he outlast you
I am 55, when i was 20 i met a 104 yo man called " Jack Rabbit" he died at 111 the oldest knowned man alive well 3 woman were older. He was sick the last 8 months. At 104 and past that he was canoeing/cross-country skiing, chopping his wood daily his eyes i still remember their spark, his happiness never proved any b12 defeciency and he was a vegan the last half of his life. He built the largest cross-country trails network near Montreal and his advices were exercise frequently, be moderate with alcool and smoking.
I am 55 yo so i met him about 1977.
Some gold medalists are vegans, some are vegeterians and i heard a rumor that maybe some eat meat.[/quote]
And my grandfather smoked the first half of his life, eats meat with every meal, lots of salt and butter, has a huge sweet tooth, drinks Scotch daily, and is 95 years old. He lives at home with my 87 year old grandmother. He rides a stationary bike for several miles daily, they keep a large garden in summer and do yard work. If only he had chosen to be a vegan.
[quote]MrZsasz wrote:
[quote]BHappy wrote:
Too many points to list them all.
In north america most eat meat, most die too early
,tooo many get heart diseases
,too many get high blood pressure
,abuse cafeine
,abuse sugar
maybe the question might have been how will you feel when he outlast you
I am 55, when i was 20 i met a 104 yo man called " Jack Rabbit" he died at 111 the oldest knowned man alive well 3 woman were older. He was sick the last 8 months. At 104 and past that he was canoeing/cross-country skiing, chopping his wood daily his eyes i still remember their spark, his happiness never proved any b12 defeciency and he was a vegan the last half of his life. He built the largest cross-country trails network near Montreal and his advices were exercise frequently, be moderate with alcool and smoking.
I am 55 yo so i met him about 1977.
Some gold medalists are vegans, some are vegeterians and i heard a rumor that maybe some eat meat.[/quote]
And my grandfather smoked the first half of his life, eats meat with every meal, lots of salt and butter, has a huge sweet tooth, drinks Scotch daily, and is 95 years old. He lives at home with my 87 year old grandmother. He rides a stationary bike for several miles daily, they keep a large garden in summer and do yard work. If only he had chosen to be a vegan.
[/quote]
haha
Sorry buddy,
All of the most recent legit science shows going plant-based is the optimal way to go, for the long-term that is. Eating like a modern caveman is ok for short term gain, but if you want to look good and have decent erectile function as you get older, you need to make sure all of your arteries are clean and pumping blood as fully as possible.
[quote]butro78 wrote:
Sorry buddy,
All of the most recent legit science shows going plant-based is the optimal way to go, for the long-term that is. Eating like a modern caveman is ok for short term gain, but if you want to look good and have decent erectile function as you get older, you need to make sure all of your arteries are clean and pumping blood as fully as possible.
[/quote]
Sorry buddy, but the vegan vegetable fats are generally far worse on your arteries and blood flow than animal fats.
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
[quote]butro78 wrote:
Sorry buddy,
All of the most recent legit science shows going plant-based is the optimal way to go, for the long-term that is. Eating like a modern caveman is ok for short term gain, but if you want to look good and have decent erectile function as you get older, you need to make sure all of your arteries are clean and pumping blood as fully as possible.
[/quote]
Sorry buddy, but the vegan vegetable fats are generally far worse on your arteries and blood flow than animal fats. [/quote]
Vegetable oil - Highly processed and typically GMO.
Grass fed beef- All natural