T Nation

Meal spacing


#1

Hello Massive Eaters,

I wanted to ask a question about the time that divides a meal from another.
heres my current diet organization

7:00am P+C breakfast
10:00am P+F first recess
12:00pm P+C second recess
2:00pm P+F I get Home
4:00pm P+C Pre/during workout shake
6:00pm P+C Post workout shake
7:00pm P+C Dinner
10:00pm P+F bedtime snack
2:00am P+F Pee time

Ok thats a total of 9 meals in there, and i have noticed im eating every 2 hours on most cases, mostly because the only chances i get to eat are during recess and they are spaced 2 hours apart, then, i get home 2 hours after my last meal, then i get to the gym about 2 hours after my last meal.

The goal of Massive eating is not to have high levels of carbs, insulin and fat in the bloodstream simultaniously, and I read that fats took around 3 hours after ingestion to enter the bloodstream. So, If I swictch from P+F to P+C in 2-3 hours, carbs would meet with fats and insulin would join the party in this worst case scenario, or am I missing something?

Thanks for your help,

Rollus


#2

anyone?
:frowning:


#3

7:00am P+C breakfast
10:00am P+F first recess
12:00pm P+C second recess
2:00pm P+F I get Home
4:00pm P+C Pre/during workout shake
6:00pm P+C Post workout shake
7:00pm P+C Dinner
10:00pm P+F bedtime snack
2:00am P+F Pee time

I don't really see the purpose of the 12 pm meal being P+C...do you have a reason for this? Otherwise I would eat a P+F meal. You might want to consider this for breakfast as well.

And as to the transition of P+F to P+C, you could have a lean piece of meat (buffalo) and a coconut milk smoothie with some coconut oil added. I believe the coconut fat is digested faster than most other fats, so it would be good for that transition period.

Also, there appears to be a large gap between your workout and your post-workout shake. Why is this? I certainly hope you're not lifting for two hours. A post-workout shake should be consumed within 10 minutes of finishing your workout.

Perhaps something more like this (changes in bold):

4:00pm P+C Pre/during workout shake
4:45pm P+C Post workout shake
5:45pm P+C post workout meal
7:00pm P+C Dinner
10:00pm P+F bedtime snack
2:00am P+F Pee time

Hope this helps.


#4

You might consider cutting back on the carbs at dinner since you are getting carbs from your post-workout meal. Plus, maybe eliminate the fat at the two late meals depending on what your source of protein is.


#5

You might consider cutting back on the carbs at dinner since you are getting carbs from your post-workout meal. Plus, maybe eliminate the fat at the two late meals depending on what your source of protein is.

Why eliminate the fat in the late meals?


#6

Do you feel you respond well to insulin? I ask because if your not sure, like me, I would eat all p+f until workout,post, and 2nd post meal then go back to p+f....


#7

I stay on the gym around 1-1.5 hours. I prepare my preWO shake and start sipping it while on my way to the gym (about 20 mins before i get there,) and continue during my WO.
Then I drink my Pwo shake as soon as i get home. This is why it takes me from 4-6 from my first sip to my pwo shake.
If i eliminate my P+C meal at 12 pm, I think i will mess up all my macro ratio, and have less energy at the gym.

I am already having 1 cup of cottage cheese and about 200 calories worth of coconut milk(for the MCTs) 2 hours before my preWO shake. I thought the same thing(that fats and carbs wont meet in the bloodstream)

But, in theory, is this a weak point of eating every 2-3 hours in massive eating(fats appearing on the bloodstream just when you eat a carb meal)? Because I train late, I NEED to have more carbs during the day other than my shake and dinner, if I stick with the 2/1 carb/pro ratio it would look like a cutting diet alla T-dawg 2.0 instead of bulking.

I find the topic aboout breakfast being P+F or P+C very controversial.
I believe its best in my case to go with P+C since I need more carbs and this is a time of great insulin sensitivity, plus, ive read that having a P+F breakfast may interfere with glucose uptake about 6 hours after the meal.

Any thoughts?


#8

Rollus,

Then I drink my Pwo shake as soon as i get home.

20 minutes is too long. You should be finishing your drink within 10 minutes post-workout. Just take it with you to the gym in a shaker bottle and just add some water to it once you finish your workout.

If i eliminate my P+C meal at 12 pm, I think i will mess up all my macro ratio, and have less energy at the gym.

Key word: "think". Try it and give it a shot. If you're not a carb type, then you should be fine. To not screw up your ratios, just move those carbs to post workout (I get into this later).

But, in theory, is this a weak point of eating every 2-3 hours in massive eating(fats appearing on the bloodstream just when you eat a carb meal)?

In theory, yes, but I highly doubt it will make any difference.

Because I train late, I NEED to have more carbs during the day other than my shake and dinner, if I stick with the 2/1 carb/pro ratio it would look like a cutting diet alla T-dawg 2.0 instead of bulking.

If you finish lifting at 5:40pm, then you can eat more carbs in the 4-6 hour window post-workout. Right now your last P+C meal is dinner at 7, when you could be eating carbs until 10pm for sure and up until about 12 am. So try eating more carbs in that time period. Just take the carbs from breakfast and your snack and stick them in this time period and you won't screw up your ratios and have to recalculate all that :slightly_smiling:

I believe its best in my case to go with P+C since I need more carbs...

What evidence leads you to believe this? Not trying to be rude...just trying to help.

...and this is a time of great insulin sensitivity

I'm not sure it's "great" insulin sensitivity, but you are definitely more insulin sensitive post-workout.

...plus, ive read that having a P+F breakfast may interfere with glucose uptake about 6 hours after the meal.

Where did you read this and why would this happen?


#9

Read Lonnie Lowery?s Temporal Nutrition 1&2, they?re very interesting.

A few ideas from what it says:

"Glucose tolerance can become so poor in the evening, researchers have related it to Type II diabetes!"

"Clearly then, breakfast ? and a "second breakfast" consisting of low-fat, higher carbohydrate feedings are important"

Do you recommend eating my bedtime snack and pee time meal P+C and eat P+F for breakfast and 12pm.
The reason why I havent done it is beacause i have always heard it is better to end the day with a P+F meal, and after reading Lonnie Lowery?s Temporal Nutrition 1&2, i erased the idea of omelletes and bacn for breakfast


#10

Rollus,

Yes, insulin sensitivity at night is worse than in the morning if you don't exercise.

But if you do exercise at night, your insulin sensitivity is way higher, so you want carbs.

The 2 am meal is too late for P+C and should be P+F for sure.

Let me read those articles and I'll get back to you on the breakfast thing.


#11

Rollus Said:
Then I drink my Pwo shake as soon as i get home.

Buffpants Said:
20 minutes is too long. You should be finishing your drink within 10 minutes post-workout. Just take it with you to the gym in a shaker bottle and just add some water to it once you finish your workout.

I say:
20 minutes is not too long. First off he is sipping his P+C preworkout shake before and during his workout. And second off, even if he wasn't, I haven't read conclusive sudies anywhere that say you absolutely have to drink you're pwo shake immediately after lifting or you're muscles will shrivel up; sorry not buying it. I think anywere from 0 minutes to up to an hour is fine especially when you're sipping a p+c drink during you're workout; you've already offset catabolism and then follow it up with a shake 20 minutes later. You're fine.


#12

"20 minutes is too long. You should be finishing your drink within 10 minutes post-workout. Just take it with you to the gym in a shaker bottle and just add some water to it once you finish your workout."

David Barr said in his last T-Mag interview...

"What little evidence we have in people our age suggests that amino acid ingestion following resistance training will enhance protein synthesis by about 33% more if taken an hour after the workout compared to taking it immediately after. Also, this effect seems to persist for up to 24 hours following the workout! How?s that for a post workout window!"

and

"We also have no scientific evidence to show that insulin sensitivity is enhanced immediately after resistance exercise. This concept was based on what happens after cardio as well as the enhanced glucose uptake following resistance training. Even if it were enhanced, we?d also have to distinguish between the "insulin sensitivity" of each macronutrient!"

Though David ingests his Surge at around 10 minutes PO, it does not mean it is necessarily the ideal time to consume it so the difference between ingesting at 10 and 20 minutes could be trivial, we just don't know. So, if its more convenient for you to drink it 20 minutes PO I don't think it is a big deal at all.

And Rollus, you're young so stuff your face. It is great you are going about it the healthy way but you'll be able to get away with things older lifters won't. A few more P+C meals could end up adding little to no extra adipose than focusing on P+F meals. Play around with it. If you're sluggish with the P+F meals eat more P+C meals. You have the rest of your training career to figure out whats best for you. Part of the fun is playing around with your diet and finding out what works best for you.

Good luck.


#13

Rollus,

I read the part of the article you mentioned.

Here's my take on it:

First, if you're a protein type, you can't be eating carbs that much! Breakfast, a meal after breakfast, and then for a while after you train...for protein types that is just too many carbs and not enough fat.

Second, if it is true that insulin sensitivity is somehow compromised by this, it won't matter because you won't be eating carbs until after your workout, when insulin sensitivity is very high.

You can give P+F morning meals a shot and see what happens.


#14

aaronm,

What little evidence we have in people our age suggests that amino acid ingestion following resistance training...

That's using amino acids, not Surge or protein powder.

Besides, what is the effect of having your protein shake immediately after and THEN aminos 1 hour later?

We also have no scientific evidence to show that insulin sensitivity is enhanced immediately after resistance exercise. This concept was based on what happens after cardio as well as the enhanced glucose uptake following resistance training.

If glucose uptake is increased after resistance training, then I'm not sure what is in question.


#15

randman,

No, your muscles won't shrivel up.

But I see no reason why he can't drink his post-workout drink as soon as he's done.

Since a post-workout drink containing carbs will lower cortisol, you shold try to drink it as soon as you're done. This will help make an anabolic environment.

But again, no, you won't shrivel up if you drink your post-workout shake 30 minutes after, but you also won't shrivel up if you replace your carbs with glutamine, either.


#16

Exactly my point musclerob. The tests were done using proteins he won't be getting from a PWO shake not, not to mention the tests subjects were fasted. So, we really do not have data on how the PWO shake will affect him especially when he is eating a calorie surplus. The difference between 10 and 20 minutes could be negligible, we just do not know.

He can easily put on the weight and experience great benefits drinking his shake 20 minutes after instead of 10.

We're aguing about 10 minutes, it is not life or death. I say he does whatever he can manage.


#17

Thank you very much for your help guys,
I will make this change:
12pm will be P+F(breakfast is still P+C)
bedtime snack is now P+C(pee time meal is still P+F)
What do you think about that?

1 more question guys,
I recently bought a bottle of Surge but for matters of discipline I wont open it until i finnish my isopure(yeah, its a BIG TEMPTATION)
since I weigh 125 pounds, MY PRE/DURING/POST WO shake consists of 25 grs. protein(1/2) serving isopure(25 grs prot and 12 grs carbs) and to up the carbs to a 2/1 ratio I am adding 1 packet of sugar free/fat free puding, making a total of exactly 300 cals, 25g protein, 50 grs carbs, exactly what I need based on JBs formula. I use the Pudding cuz it makes it taste good even when diluted and it makes my PWO shake thicker and tastier(I like thick Shakes, is Surge thick?, Im suffering!, The bottle is staring at me right now at my desk calling my name asking me to open her like a marmaid calling sailors to the rocks!)

Ok back to my question, sugarfree/FF Pudding is made mostly of Modified Food starch, i bet this is very High GI, i dont know, but this sounds like highly processed shit to me!, second ingredient is maltodextrin, which is great.
Am I getting a high GI carb with Modified food starch?

Thanks,

Rollus


#18

Note: I only use Pudding when the flavor Of isopure I use that day is peanut butter chocolate or chocolate(I bought the variety pack)
when its orange creamsicle, vanilla or strawberry, I dilute it with 150 cals worth of gatorade fruit punch powder.
Some times, when I have them, I eat instead some Sweettarts(The Giant ones, which are 41grs net WT)
Sweettarts are a great carb source for PWO, since their first three ingredients are dextrose, glucose syrup, and maltodextrin. (Hint: You can also use Runtz, Gobstoppers, or soda pops, theya re also made of dextrose/malto)


#19

rollus,

Go for the pudding. It will be fine. You have some good gaining ahead of you.


#20

Rollus,

Getting some great advice and fixing your meals up right. :slightly_smiling:

I just wanted to comment on the pudding. Yes it is a great fast acting carb. I used to use it a lot but have recently stopped, not saying you should.

It is weird in me. For some reason it makes me blow up and hold water like none other. I found this during my carb ups of UD2 I was doing not long ago. On the carb days that the only change was the inclusion of sugar free pudding I would hold like 10 LBS extra. Weird.

So just see how it treats you.

Good Luck
Phill