Mayweather vs Pacquiao

I don’t mean to stir up any shit… I think this fight will likely be boring and is the final breath of a dying venue. Agree with FightinIrish, Floyd is a douche, but will win and I don’t expect it to be close.

Are people actually going to pay to watch this?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t mean to stir up any shit… I think this fight will likely be boring and is the final breath of a dying venue. Agree with FightinIrish, Floyd is a douche, but will win and I don’t expect it to be close.

Are people actually going to pay to watch this?

[/quote]

I’m going to, because it’s still a terrific matchup between two fighters that are the absolute best in their chosen sport. I would have rather had it happen years ago, but as I said, I’ll take it now, certainly.

I’m not really sure what you mean when you say “dying venue” … if you’re talking about boxing in general, you’d be wrong on a bunch of counts. This fight is going to generate the most money of any fight of all time, and boxing has been on network TV more in the last year than it has in the previous 40.

So really, regardless of where these two are in their careers, if this is a good, exciting fight, it could mean that the sport that’s been relegated to the provinces for many decades is finally about to return to Rome.

That being said, even if the fight sucks, boxing’s not going anywhere. The idea of boxing’s “death” is a purely American one that white people in this country like to repeat over and over and over again, even though it’s just as wrong now as it was in 1990 or 1960 or 1940. The sport’s been around for literally 4,000 years. It’ll make it through.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I also agree that the most likely outcome will have Floyd’s hand raised at the conclusion of the fight.

I also agree with others that while this fight is still interesting, it would have been better 5 years ago when both were in their primes and I also agree that Mayweather dodged this fight up to this point. My main evidence for this hypothesis is all the crap that Mayweather and his camp pulled a while back regarding demanding all sorts of nonesensical drug tests and stipulations on Floyd (which far exceeded the established practices regarding drug testing used by boxing and the Athletic Commissions). He wanted very much to throw up a bunch of red tape for Manny to jump through to slow down the process of making this fight happen. Had Floyd been asking for and wanting this fight for the past few years (without any extra hoops for Manny to jump through), but for whatever reason the fight just didn’t happen, then sure I might not be as suspicious, but that’s not what happened.

Floyd is a smart fighter (and an even smarter businessman), and smart fighters like smart predators know not to attack their prey where they are strongest or when they are at their best. While his pride might have wanted to fight Manny several years ago, his head knew that waiting till the time was right to pounce was the better course of action for his legacy. I personally have no problem with this though as he rightfully holds the belt, is arguably the best pound for pound boxer currently in the World, and his course of action may very well wind up resulting in an unbeaten record with some great names on his list of wins. And it’s his damn head on the line, not any of the fans’ who would have liked to see him fight a prime Oscar, Manny, or arguably Shane.

Agree or disagree of you want; this is purely speculation and opinion.[/quote]

Exactly.

When it comes down to it, if you’re Floyd Mayweather and you say, “I want to fight Manny Pacquiao next,” and you mean it, that fight is done in three weeks.

He has been the only roadblock standing in the way all this time. But yes, it’s his prerogative to do that.

All I’ve ever been saying is that when you DO do that, you can’t go claiming you’re the best ever and #1 pound-for-pound and all that shit. Because Duran and Hagler and Robinson and Louis and Marciano and Ali and Frazier - those guys DIDN’T do this kind of roadblocking, and that’s why they’ll always be ranked ahead of Floyd.

I wouldn’t put the timing of this squarely on Mayweather. Pac could have just agreed to his demands if he wanted the fight so bad. The Mayweather/Arum hatred contributed, as did the HBO/Showtime issue. They’re both at the same level in their careers, and not far passed their primes. If Pac hadn’t lost 2 fights in the last 5 years, I doubt their not being at their primes would even be an issue.

I’d like to say that years from now, none of this will matter because Mayweather will have a perfect record with Pac’s name on the list of victims. But the GOAT conversations are always subjective and there will always be the what-ifs and yeah-buts. Mayweather will still have an admirable legacy and his riches will take his mind off the haters.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t mean to stir up any shit… I think this fight will likely be boring and is the final breath of a dying venue. Agree with FightinIrish, Floyd is a douche, but will win and I don’t expect it to be close.

Are people actually going to pay to watch this?

[/quote]

I’m going to, because it’s still a terrific matchup between two fighters that are the absolute best in their chosen sport. I would have rather had it happen years ago, but as I said, I’ll take it now, certainly.

I’m not really sure what you mean when you say “dying venue” … if you’re talking about boxing in general, you’d be wrong on a bunch of counts. This fight is going to generate the most money of any fight of all time, and boxing has been on network TV more in the last year than it has in the previous 40.

So really, regardless of where these two are in their careers, if this is a good, exciting fight, it could mean that the sport that’s been relegated to the provinces for many decades is finally about to return to Rome.

That being said, even if the fight sucks, boxing’s not going anywhere. The idea of boxing’s “death” is a purely American one that white people in this country like to repeat over and over and over again, even though it’s just as wrong now as it was in 1990 or 1960 or 1940. The sport’s been around for literally 4,000 years. It’ll make it through.
[/quote]

I didn’t mean the sport of boxing was dying. The sport of boxing will go on probably forever as you said. I mean the business side of of it. I just think the day of the 50 million fight is over.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t mean to stir up any shit… I think this fight will likely be boring and is the final breath of a dying venue. Agree with FightinIrish, Floyd is a douche, but will win and I don’t expect it to be close.

Are people actually going to pay to watch this?

[/quote]

I’m going to, because it’s still a terrific matchup between two fighters that are the absolute best in their chosen sport. I would have rather had it happen years ago, but as I said, I’ll take it now, certainly.

I’m not really sure what you mean when you say “dying venue” … if you’re talking about boxing in general, you’d be wrong on a bunch of counts. This fight is going to generate the most money of any fight of all time, and boxing has been on network TV more in the last year than it has in the previous 40.

So really, regardless of where these two are in their careers, if this is a good, exciting fight, it could mean that the sport that’s been relegated to the provinces for many decades is finally about to return to Rome.

That being said, even if the fight sucks, boxing’s not going anywhere. The idea of boxing’s “death” is a purely American one that white people in this country like to repeat over and over and over again, even though it’s just as wrong now as it was in 1990 or 1960 or 1940. The sport’s been around for literally 4,000 years. It’ll make it through.
[/quote]

I didn’t mean the sport of boxing was dying. The sport of boxing will go on probably forever as you said. I mean the business side of of it. I just think the day of the 50 million fight is over. [/quote]

lmfao

you are saying the “day of the 50 million fight is over” literally one fucking week before a THREE HUNDRED million dollar fight takes place!!

aside from blatantly following me around to cause trouble, are these troll posts for real???

Some things this thread highlights for me:

  1. For the most part, T Nation combat forum contributors are objective, civil and knowledgeable. That’s nice.

  2. The subject of Mayweather ‘dodging’ reoccurs because he does in fact ‘dodge’. Whether it’s a tactic to draw out the best financial terms, or because he’s a bitch is irrelevant. The fact remains - Pacman was in his prime at the first suggestion of a superfight between these two guys and now he is not. Personally I don’t think Mayweather is a bitch. But he’s not so stupid as to not realize his chances only improved as time dragged on.

  3. Know what else reoccurs in these damn discussions? Mayweather fans spontaneously combusting. TheCB rocks up and insults an otherwise innocuous post, makes it all about him (trolling ME brah?) and is a Mayweather fan. Coincidence? Stop white knighting for Mayweather.

  4. Pacman will always be one of the most liked, respected boxers ever. For all the charity that Mayweather does in his community, he will ALWAYS be dogged by allegations of physical abuse, familial dysfunction and… yes… dodging. He had the power over these allegations throughout his career and he failed to act against them. Pacman may lose this fight, but he’s won a whole lot of hearts that will stick by his legacy long after he quits fighting. A vast majority of Mayweather fans will just slide on over to the next big thing and underline their superficial affection for this sport.

  5. There will be SO MANY boxing experts at bars on the night of the fight. I intend watching it at a friend’s house.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t mean to stir up any shit… I think this fight will likely be boring and is the final breath of a dying venue. Agree with FightinIrish, Floyd is a douche, but will win and I don’t expect it to be close.

Are people actually going to pay to watch this?

[/quote]

I will watch. Not because I want to, but because I’m a sucker. I was ready to boycott, but the promotion. Watching Mayweather talk shit every day on espn I’m now ready. I think he will do typical Mayweather defend and win in unanimous decision but he’s been talking Knockout in every interview. That 1% chance is drawing me in to watch. It is $100 but I think so many people want to see it that more people will chip in and buy it.

Boxing was doing okay until they decided to charge bars per cable box for the fights. UFC snuck in and stole the Saturday and Friday nights. If the new NBC Saturday boxing gets big, it’ll help a lot for the $100 million dollar Title fights.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t mean to stir up any shit… I think this fight will likely be boring and is the final breath of a dying venue. Agree with FightinIrish, Floyd is a douche, but will win and I don’t expect it to be close.

Are people actually going to pay to watch this?

[/quote]

I will watch. Not because I want to, but because I’m a sucker. I was ready to boycott, but the promotion. Watching Mayweather talk shit every day on espn I’m now ready. I think he will do typical Mayweather defend and win in unanimous decision but he’s been talking Knockout in every interview. That 1% chance is drawing me in to watch. It is $100 but I think so many people want to see it that more people will chip in and buy it.

Boxing was doing okay until they decided to charge bars per cable box for the fights. UFC snuck in and stole the Saturday and Friday nights. If the new NBC Saturday boxing gets big, it’ll help a lot for the $100 million dollar Title fights. [/quote]

I think he will try for the KO, its not just talk. He’s brought in Pacquiao’s former S&C coach, and while i think S&C coaches are completely overrated, its a sign that hes trying to do something different (i dont think hes ever had a S&C coach on the payroll before?) and reportedly hes been extremely aggressive in sparring.

Its very likely this is the fight he will retire after, so i can see him wanting to silence all critics and go out with a bang. After all, even with the swathe of good work hes done recently, every fight its still “yeah but its not pacquiao”.

that said, I entirely expect if the fight ever gets really competitive for mayweather to go back to tried, true and safe habits.

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t mean to stir up any shit… I think this fight will likely be boring and is the final breath of a dying venue. Agree with FightinIrish, Floyd is a douche, but will win and I don’t expect it to be close.

Are people actually going to pay to watch this?

[/quote]

I will watch. Not because I want to, but because I’m a sucker. I was ready to boycott, but the promotion. Watching Mayweather talk shit every day on espn I’m now ready. I think he will do typical Mayweather defend and win in unanimous decision but he’s been talking Knockout in every interview. That 1% chance is drawing me in to watch. It is $100 but I think so many people want to see it that more people will chip in and buy it.

Boxing was doing okay until they decided to charge bars per cable box for the fights. UFC snuck in and stole the Saturday and Friday nights. If the new NBC Saturday boxing gets big, it’ll help a lot for the $100 million dollar Title fights. [/quote]

I think he will try for the KO, its not just talk. He’s brought in Pacquiao’s former S&C coach, and while i think S&C coaches are completely overrated, its a sign that hes trying to do something different (i dont think hes ever had a S&C coach on the payroll before?) and reportedly hes been extremely aggressive in sparring.

Its very likely this is the fight he will retire after, so i can see him wanting to silence all critics and go out with a bang. After all, even with the swathe of good work hes done recently, every fight its still “yeah but its not pacquiao”.

that said, I entirely expect if the fight ever gets really competitive for mayweather to go back to tried, true and safe habits.
[/quote]

I donno man. This is showing how much of a casual boxing fan I am, but the last Mayweather fight I saw was the Oscar De la Hoya (I’m sure I spelled his name wrong) in, I believe, 2007. Obviously a lot has changed, but it was the same spiel then too.

My guess is it goes the distance and Floyd gets his hand raised even with all this shit talking. It’s strategy I guess, but the Oscar fight is what put me off Floyd.

Mayweather by KO in the 7th or 8th. There is still some hate for Pacman in the Mayweather tank. When he doesn’t like em he usually pounds them soundly. I am sure Mayweather go after a KO. Going to watch it at home with all the local fighters. Wish it had come sooner like everyone else, but better late than never. It will be entertaining. As far as retiring , I hope not what is the million dollar man going to do with no cash flow.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t mean to stir up any shit… I think this fight will likely be boring and is the final breath of a dying venue. Agree with FightinIrish, Floyd is a douche, but will win and I don’t expect it to be close.

Are people actually going to pay to watch this?

[/quote]

I will watch. Not because I want to, but because I’m a sucker. I was ready to boycott, but the promotion. Watching Mayweather talk shit every day on espn I’m now ready. I think he will do typical Mayweather defend and win in unanimous decision but he’s been talking Knockout in every interview. That 1% chance is drawing me in to watch. It is $100 but I think so many people want to see it that more people will chip in and buy it.

Boxing was doing okay until they decided to charge bars per cable box for the fights. UFC snuck in and stole the Saturday and Friday nights. If the new NBC Saturday boxing gets big, it’ll help a lot for the $100 million dollar Title fights. [/quote]

I think he will try for the KO, its not just talk. He’s brought in Pacquiao’s former S&C coach, and while i think S&C coaches are completely overrated, its a sign that hes trying to do something different (i dont think hes ever had a S&C coach on the payroll before?) and reportedly hes been extremely aggressive in sparring.

Its very likely this is the fight he will retire after, so i can see him wanting to silence all critics and go out with a bang. After all, even with the swathe of good work hes done recently, every fight its still “yeah but its not pacquiao”.

that said, I entirely expect if the fight ever gets really competitive for mayweather to go back to tried, true and safe habits.
[/quote]

I donno man. This is showing how much of a casual boxing fan I am, but the last Mayweather fight I saw was the Oscar De la Hoya (I’m sure I spelled his name wrong) in, I believe, 2007. Obviously a lot has changed, but it was the same spiel then too.

My guess is it goes the distance and Floyd gets his hand raised even with all this shit talking. It’s strategy I guess, but the Oscar fight is what put me off Floyd.[/quote]

Yeah but Oscar was a big boy man. Oscar was almost 5’11. At welterweight, thats a BIG guy. Not to mention, for all the heat chucked at Oscar for being a pretty boy over his career, he legitimately had an solid chin.

Pacquiao is a bit of a different story. He’s quite a bit smaller than Mayweather, and he’s been knocked down quite a few times in his career. Certainly we know hes been knocked out by a counter puncher (Marquez).

Just some background for those interested:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Smart money is on Mayweather, and I see no reason Manny should win this. Unfortunately. Because I really, really like him.

This fight does not interest me at all any more. Years ago, when they were both in their prime, I drooled over the thought of this fight. But they’re both past prime and it seems that Pacman has not aged as gracefully (in the ring that is) as Floyd. There will always be a “what if” component to this for me now, because Mayweather dodged the damn fight his whole career.

I view it more or less as a scavenger meal now—Floyd simply waits out the rust all these years and only NOW goes for the fight because he senses his advantage. Good for his checking account? Maybe. Shitty for a quality fight and a real legacy defining moment IMHO. A legacy defining fight entails them both signing on at the top of their game.[/quote]

 Hordes of mathematically-challenged individuals are saying that Mayweather has deliberately waited for Manny to age and slow down.  This might make some sense if Manny were older than Floyd.  As it happens, Manny is two years younger.

 Another common claim is that Mayweather and Pacquiao are past their primes.  I disagree with this assertion.  Both fighters are still in their primes; they are as quick as ever in terms of reflexes and hand/foot speed.  Bernard Hopkins concurs with this:  "I believe both {fighters} are at their seasoned-best and I believe both fighters have peaked late, and people don't really talk about that. Nobody says anything about an athlete who peaks later."

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t mean to stir up any shit… I think this fight will likely be boring and is the final breath of a dying venue. Agree with FightinIrish, Floyd is a douche, but will win and I don’t expect it to be close.

Are people actually going to pay to watch this?

[/quote]

I will watch. Not because I want to, but because I’m a sucker. I was ready to boycott, but the promotion. Watching Mayweather talk shit every day on espn I’m now ready. I think he will do typical Mayweather defend and win in unanimous decision but he’s been talking Knockout in every interview. That 1% chance is drawing me in to watch. It is $100 but I think so many people want to see it that more people will chip in and buy it.

Boxing was doing okay until they decided to charge bars per cable box for the fights. UFC snuck in and stole the Saturday and Friday nights. If the new NBC Saturday boxing gets big, it’ll help a lot for the $100 million dollar Title fights. [/quote]

I think he will try for the KO, its not just talk. He’s brought in Pacquiao’s former S&C coach, and while i think S&C coaches are completely overrated, its a sign that hes trying to do something different (i dont think hes ever had a S&C coach on the payroll before?) and reportedly hes been extremely aggressive in sparring.

Its very likely this is the fight he will retire after, so i can see him wanting to silence all critics and go out with a bang. After all, even with the swathe of good work hes done recently, every fight its still “yeah but its not pacquiao”.

that said, I entirely expect if the fight ever gets really competitive for mayweather to go back to tried, true and safe habits.
[/quote]

I donno man. This is showing how much of a casual boxing fan I am, but the last Mayweather fight I saw was the Oscar De la Hoya (I’m sure I spelled his name wrong) in, I believe, 2007. Obviously a lot has changed, but it was the same spiel then too.

My guess is it goes the distance and Floyd gets his hand raised even with all this shit talking. It’s strategy I guess, but the Oscar fight is what put me off Floyd.[/quote]

Yeah but Oscar was a big boy man. Oscar was almost 5’11. At welterweight, thats a BIG guy. Not to mention, for all the heat chucked at Oscar for being a pretty boy over his career, he legitimately had an solid chin.

Pacquiao is a bit of a different story. He’s quite a bit smaller than Mayweather, and he’s been knocked down quite a few times in his career. Certainly we know hes been knocked out by a counter puncher (Marquez).[/quote]
Ya, I guess that’s true.

[quote]stallone wrote:

 Hordes of mathematically-challenged individuals are saying that Mayweather has deliberately waited for Manny to age and slow down.  This might make some sense if Manny were older than Floyd.  As it happens, Manny is two years younger.

 Another common claim is that Mayweather and Pacquiao are past their primes.  I disagree with this assertion.  Both fighters are still in their primes; they are as quick as ever in terms of reflexes and hand/foot speed.  Bernard Hopkins concurs with this:  "I believe both {fighters} are at their seasoned-best and I believe both fighters have peaked late, and people don't really talk about that. Nobody says anything about an athlete who peaks later."

[/quote]

I disagree that either fighter is at their peak. I also disagree that Pacquiao will have an advantage of any significance because of his younger age. I think the arguement that Mayweather “dodged” the fight is less about fear and more about money. I can’t possibly believe Mayweather is scared of anything except hard copy books without illustrations.

BUT, he still avoided the fight until he was ready. So the substance of the dodge is different but a dodge it was nonetheless. “Always protect yourself financially”, or something.

[quote]stallone wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Smart money is on Mayweather, and I see no reason Manny should win this. Unfortunately. Because I really, really like him.

This fight does not interest me at all any more. Years ago, when they were both in their prime, I drooled over the thought of this fight. But they’re both past prime and it seems that Pacman has not aged as gracefully (in the ring that is) as Floyd. There will always be a “what if” component to this for me now, because Mayweather dodged the damn fight his whole career.

I view it more or less as a scavenger meal now—Floyd simply waits out the rust all these years and only NOW goes for the fight because he senses his advantage. Good for his checking account? Maybe. Shitty for a quality fight and a real legacy defining moment IMHO. A legacy defining fight entails them both signing on at the top of their game.[/quote]

 Hordes of mathematically-challenged individuals are saying that Mayweather has deliberately waited for Manny to age and slow down.  This might make some sense if Manny were older than Floyd.  As it happens, Manny is two years younger.

 Another common claim is that Mayweather and Pacquiao are past their primes.  I disagree with this assertion.  Both fighters are still in their primes; they are as quick as ever in terms of reflexes and hand/foot speed.  Bernard Hopkins concurs with this:  "I believe both {fighters} are at their seasoned-best and I believe both fighters have peaked late, and people don't really talk about that. Nobody says anything about an athlete who peaks later."

[/quote]

Different people (including athletes) age at different rates (suggesting that both peaked late is acknowledging this fact, although I also disagree with that assertion) so their chronological age doesn’t necessarily mean much (especially with them being so close in age). Ring age is also not the same as chronological age; and due to Mayweather’s style and the lack of damage he has sustained in his career due to it his ring age seems to be less than Manny’s (even though he is chronologically older).

Finally when we are talking about peak we mean athletic/physical peak, not tactical/strategy peak. Some fighters do indeed “peak” career wise later (George Foreman for example), but that doesn’t mean that they are necessarily at their physical peak at that point in their career. Watching Manny especially you can see he has slowed down just enough to signify his physical decline has begun. Floyd can see this too I’m sure and probably realizes that this little bit of a decline is enough that he can handle Manny.

[quote]stallone wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Smart money is on Mayweather, and I see no reason Manny should win this. Unfortunately. Because I really, really like him.

This fight does not interest me at all any more. Years ago, when they were both in their prime, I drooled over the thought of this fight. But they’re both past prime and it seems that Pacman has not aged as gracefully (in the ring that is) as Floyd. There will always be a “what if” component to this for me now, because Mayweather dodged the damn fight his whole career.

I view it more or less as a scavenger meal now—Floyd simply waits out the rust all these years and only NOW goes for the fight because he senses his advantage. Good for his checking account? Maybe. Shitty for a quality fight and a real legacy defining moment IMHO. A legacy defining fight entails them both signing on at the top of their game.[/quote]

 Hordes of mathematically-challenged individuals are saying that Mayweather has deliberately waited for Manny to age and slow down.  This might make some sense if Manny were older than Floyd.  As it happens, Manny is two years younger.

 Another common claim is that Mayweather and Pacquiao are past their primes.  I disagree with this assertion.  Both fighters are still in their primes; they are as quick as ever in terms of reflexes and hand/foot speed.  Bernard Hopkins concurs with this:  "I believe both {fighters} are at their seasoned-best and I believe both fighters have peaked late, and people don't really talk about that. Nobody says anything about an athlete who peaks later."

[/quote]

I agree with Sento in his comments on this post. Ring age has nothing to do with years - Ricky Hatton was over the hill at 33. Hopkins still fights at a high level in his late 40s and 50s.

And if you believe that either of these fighters are still in their physical primes, it makes me wonder when you started watching them …

Mayweather is certainly not the athletic specimen he was when he was a lightweight, but I would argue the Mayweather of now is a better boxer than he was 5 years ago.

There seemed to be a period where Mayweather was mostly flat flooted, very little ring movement and relying on his superior timing and defense to win. Seems to me since hooking up again with his father for the Guerrero and subsequent fights, its been nothing but positive impacts. His footwork is a LOT better. He seems to throw more punches, particularly the jab. Against Alvarez he attempted something like 330 jabs, landed 42% of them. In the mosley fight he still had that supernatural connect rate at 40%, but much less work, coming in at only 210 attempts.

Mayweather is certainly not the athletic specimen he was when he was a lightweight, but I would argue the Mayweather of now is a better boxer than he was 5 years ago.

There seemed to be a period where Mayweather was mostly flat flooted, very little ring movement and relying on his superior timing and defense to win. Seems to me since hooking up again with his father for the Guerrero and subsequent fights, its been nothing but positive impacts. His footwork is a LOT better. He seems to throw more punches, particularly the jab. Against Alvarez he attempted something like 330 jabs, landed 42% of them. In the mosley fight he still had that supernatural connect rate at 40%, but much less work, coming in at only 210 attempts.