Maybe One of CT's Influences?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
1

Found an article from the 80s on the Dittilo blog. Dezso Ban’s philosophy seems to be pretty close to CT’s about accumulating as much volume as you can tolerate. I thought it was pretty cool. You guys might like it too. It’s a neat site too that has been pimped on the forums a couple of times. I think CT even mentioned it once.

Here’s the link: The Tight Tan Slacks of Dezso Ban: Strength Training Without Drugs - Anthony Ditillo

And an excerpt:
"Dezso’s theory of training for he limits of one’s potential lies in the assertion that the body WILL adapt to most any stress if given enough time to become accustomed to the workload. In other words, if you allow the body sufficient time to adjust to a certain load, you will recover and actually become capable of even MORE work and heavier work when this adaptability takes place. The Russians and the Bulgarians have known this for years an their lifters make their entire life revolve around the gym and their workouts, and while this might be somewhat objectionable to the majority of lifters reading this article; their results speak for themselves.

With this system of training you will be doing many sets of 3 and 5 repetitions with weights quite within the particular framework of your particular strength level. There is no forcing in this system of training. There is no place for straining under a maximum single repetition. This is saved for the “peaking out” period when you give your body a chance to show how strong it has become during the prearatory period in which you will be allowing yourself to adapt to heavier and heavier work loads.

It makes no sense to continually try your limits in the gym."

2

[quote]MrRogersPostman wrote:
Found an article from the 80s on the Dittilo blog. Dezso Ban’s philosophy seems to be pretty close to CT’s about accumulating as much volume as you can tolerate. I thought it was pretty cool. You guys might like it too. It’s a neat site too that has been pimped on the forums a couple of times. I think CT even mentioned it once.

Here’s the link: The Tight Tan Slacks of Dezso Ban: Strength Training Without Drugs - Anthony Ditillo

And an excerpt:
"Dezso’s theory of training for he limits of one’s potential lies in the assertion that the body WILL adapt to most any stress if given enough time to become accustomed to the workload. In other words, if you allow the body sufficient time to adjust to a certain load, you will recover and actually become capable of even MORE work and heavier work when this adaptability takes place. The Russians and the Bulgarians have known this for years an their lifters make their entire life revolve around the gym and their workouts, and while this might be somewhat objectionable to the majority of lifters reading this article; their results speak for themselves.

With this system of training you will be doing many sets of 3 and 5 repetitions with weights quite within the particular framework of your particular strength level. There is no forcing in this system of training. There is no place for straining under a maximum single repetition. This is saved for the “peaking out” period when you give your body a chance to show how strong it has become during the prearatory period in which you will be allowing yourself to adapt to heavier and heavier work loads.

It makes no sense to continually try your limits in the gym."[/quote]

I’ve read that article a few weeks back (this is actually one of my favorite sites). While it has not influenced my methodologies because I did not know of it when I progressively came up with it; the similarities are not surprising considering that it comes from east european olympic lifters and olympic lifting is my first iron sport and I grew up in it.

3

Low rep range applications of all sorts have been around forever. So has lifting fast. All science is overwhelmingly cumulative, as is the art of doing this.

I think what CT has done is to articulate the process in a way I have not seen before and create a greater relevance for bodybuilders using it. I’ve been training a very long time and have met many coaches, some famous. But I’ve not actually used these principles until Chad and CT came along. But CT’s ramping strategy, use of max rep sets, and troubleshooting the mechanics of the lifting proper, has been unique, in my view. And it is the best application of the time-honored general concept I’ve seen, so far.

What I like is that the lifting is enjoyable, and how I feel post-workout. I think the low reps and the no-grinding makes this possible.

4

The Ditillo piece, much like Chad’s recommendations many years later, seems to recommend a fixed weight done for many sets, vice a ramping approach and then wave-loading within a work zone (as CT suggests). While both approaches may get a lifter to the same goals (not sure, but let’s say they will), the lifting experience seems quite different with each of them, certainly from a neural viewpoint, and possibly from a mental (stagnation) viewpoint too–the former approach seems to entail greater drudgery.

From a mechanical (load) perspective, I think the work weight used for the Ditillo recommendation would have to be fairly light (nowhere near one’s actual 3RM, if using triples)–to tolerate the volume. (People mentioned this very thing about Chad’s 10 x 3 approach, btw.) Whereas with CT’s version, one can get much closer to one’s true 3RM (if not spot-on) on at least some sets, then back off and take advantage of that neural effect on the way down. And greater acceleration is compensating on the early (lighter) portion of the ramp-up.

Again, I’ve no idea which approach is better but, speaking from having tried both, I feel more energized with the ramping model even at higher volumes.

Curious to hear from others who have tried both approaches.

5

[quote]Roygion wrote:
The Ditillo piece, much like Chad’s recommendations many years later, seems to recommend a fixed weight done for many sets, vice a ramping approach and then wave-loading within a work zone (as CT suggests). While both approaches may get a lifter to the same goals (not sure, but let’s say they will), the lifting experience seems quite different with each of them, certainly from a neural viewpoint, and possibly from a mental (stagnation) viewpoint too–the former approach seems to entail greater drudgery.

From a mechanical (load) perspective, I think the work weight used for the Ditillo recommendation would have to be fairly light (nowhere near one’s actual 3RM, if using triples)–to tolerate the volume. (People mentioned this very thing about Chad’s 10 x 3 approach, btw.) Whereas with CT’s version, one can get much closer to one’s true 3RM (if not spot-on) on at least some sets, then back off and take advantage of that neural effect on the way down. And greater acceleration is compensating on the early (lighter) portion of the ramp-up.

Again, I’ve no idea which approach is better but, speaking from having tried both, I feel more energized with the ramping model even at higher volumes.

Curious to hear from others who have tried both approaches.[/quote]

Roygion,

Really interesting that you brought this up. I’ve only trained for 2 years so I don’t have nearly as much experience or hindsight to draw upon but I haven’t actually gotten that “mental drudgery” from using straight sets at 3 reps. I think CT mentioned that sometimes for additional volume work he’ll drop down and do working sets of the same weight for three reps with a minute in between. So it seems pretty cool to see both methods being used…

The thing that really excites me with this kind of training is that I feel strong literally pressing everyday. Maybe it’s because my poundages aren’t at the advanced level yet but I feel like I could do over head pressing and incline pressing everyday. Seeing my shoulders and upper pecs respond so quickly makes me want to do nothing else!

6

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Really interesting that you brought this up. I’ve only trained for 2 years so I don’t have nearly as much experience or hindsight to draw upon but I haven’t actually gotten that “mental drudgery” from using straight sets at 3 reps. I think CT mentioned that sometimes for additional volume work he’ll drop down and do working sets of the same weight for three reps with a minute in between. So it seems pretty cool to see both methods being used…[/quote]

Yeah…I can get past anything mental. God knows I’ve endured some nutty and redundant stuff training and diet-wise. Maybe there is something of a neural diminution to doing many sets of the same reps as the primary pressing lift–that is what I mean. (I somehow recall CT saying something about this once past two sets at the same load.) And maybe the heavier your RMs are the more likely one may experience this as a problem. I have much less of a problem with auxiliary moves–shrugs, upright rows, curls, isolated back work, etc. where the purpose is just to accumulate supporting volume.

7

as always… goal is maximum performance… sometimes I get more from staying at the same load for more than 2 sets (i call these, heavier feel sets)… sometimes i ramp lineary, sometimes waving the weight… depends, cause ramping is actually what CT says a way to ramp up the CNS, not the actual way of loading the bar…

sometime I do a “priming” rep/set of something that I feel primes my CNS that workout, before my actuall “normal” set… why? because the way I see it if maximum performance is the goal CT says, then I’m gonna use everything I can to actually get maximum rep performance… I intentionally say maximum rep performance, cause when I say maximum performance… people in my gym immediatelly load the bar to PR weight…

sometime I do “mini” neural charge in between my pressing movements… just to prime the CNS, cause sometimes I see it goes on auto-pilot mode too much… its not 100% effort, its just lifting weight…

those methods are around for long time… me coming from east europe have trained like this for years before I lost two years to doing 3 sets of ten and such thinking it would make me bigger and stronger… but now I got back to it…

so basic philosophy is the same, any SHEIKO, SMOLOV or any russian routine can be modified to be HP Mass, trust me… what I included from CT in my strength training which was basically lots of low rep sets is…

  • OH pressing before flat pressing

  • staggered set approach… not just for rhombs/rear delts/traps but some other priming stuff as well (priming yes, but CNS burning no, cause sometime too much priming can burn you out, I found out by experimentation what I can and what I cant do, its not the same i belleive for anyone)

  • neural charge workouts… had a big impact on that maximum performance thing

  • AIMING FOR MAXIMUM REP PERFORMANCE… and putting a side (to an extent, not completelly) weight on the bar… number of sets and reps… of course I always try to do as much as possible in a weight/set department… but still I select the weight by the way I dominate it, not by actual number, so I know when I’m at 80-90 or a 100% :)… and for reps, I just chase the most perfect one in a set before ending a set…

  • AUTO-REGULATION… big thing… when you say you should increase volume and workload… people immediatelly start to add a set per workout, or kilo per workout, or whatever and burn out too soon… sometimes it drops to a half, sometimes it goes up as much… YOU SHOULD GENERALLY TRY TO DO AS MUCH AS CURRENTLY POSSIBLE (as CT says as much work without hurting your capacity to recover)… and track it… if it increases from time to time you’re progressing… you shouldnt actually try to increase it yourself… just aim for as much as possible QUALITY performance sets… and you’ll know you’re progressing if it goes up by time…

the last two things had such a big impact on my training… that I’m preparing for some big results in upcoming raw PL meets… and single ply IPF ones…

there is still a lot to learn, but those things I think are basic ones… you apply then and any low rep/high set routine will be HP Mass…

8

Good points, Gavra.

At day’s end it seems we need accumulate weekly volume with this method, so anything that fries the CNS, or gets too “pumpy” (another kind of frying), works against the volume and frequency that can be tolerated. And focusing too much on load is another way to fry, though I’m guessing from what CT and others say, easy to fall prey to that (including for me). So performance seems a key barometer and a way to maintain discipline over the session.

On another point, the Pressing before Bench Press was something I just never even saw (I’m using the word “never” here…hell, I knew guys that would never Press early in the week if Benches came later in the week), but can see the advantages to Pressing first. Every once in a while I flip the order, though, to see what’s up. Shoulders have never been happier…

How long do your sessions tend to go and how much pressing can you get in there? Also, if you had to choose due to time issues, would you lift (press) more frequently with less volume, or less frequently with greater volume?

And do you even bother with a max rep set on a pressing movement (as I,BB used)?

9

[quote]Roygion wrote:
Good points, Gavra.

At day’s end it seems we need accumulate weekly volume with this method, so anything that fries the CNS, or gets too “pumpy” (another kind of frying), works against the volume and frequency that can be tolerated. And focusing too much on load is another way to fry, though I’m guessing from what CT and others say, easy to fall prey to that (including for me). So performance seems a key barometer and a way to maintain discipline over the session.

On another point, the Pressing before Bench Press was something I just never even saw (I’m using the word “never” here…hell, I knew guys that would never Press early in the week if Benches came later in the week), but can see the advantages to Pressing first. Every once in a while I flip the order, though, to see what’s up. Shoulders have never been happier…

How long do your sessions tend to go and how much pressing can you get in there? Also, if you had to choose due to time issues, would you lift (press) more frequently with less volume, or less frequently with greater volume?

And do you even bother with a max rep set on a pressing movement (as I,BB used)?[/quote]

well, we do need to accumulate volume… but as soon as you mention it to someone, at least when I explain it to regular gym goer, he starts immediatelly doing so many sets that I see him being zombie like in a gym, no focus, just lifting from point A to point B… he thinks just because he survives a workout…that this is a way, and after few workouts he is completelly burned out… then they say your system is bad… blah blah blah… you did too much I say… and then se tells me yeah but you said to accumulate as much as possible… hahaha

thats why I say do as much quality work as possible, thats why I even like the expression PERFECT REP, cause thats how your reps should be and feel… so if it means 3 sets, do 3,if you can go up to 10 do 10… there is no prescribed scheme for progress, like add a set per workout… or a rep per workout or any progressive overload stuff… just do the job for the day, and during time, your average workload (average as between you worse and your best days workloads) will go up, and you’ll know you’re progressing… maybe I am wrong… but thats how I see it, and how it works for me for now… there is a lot more experienced people than me in this field…

well, to tell you how long my sessions take… i would have to lie… cause sometime its 2 hours… sometimes more, sometimes less… normally I do as much pressing as I feel I can recover from… I never had the problem of frying myself, cause on a little more than slight drop of performance I stop… I mean, with this kind of frequency and volume… who cares if I did a set or two less… when I did like one million sets in that year…

i also cant answer on next question, I prefer as much as possible, and often as possible… so, if your question is will I rather pick 3 workouts of 1 hour, or 6 of 30min. I would say I would go to a gym whenever I can and stay as long as possible there, even 2x per day if I can… just my thought… I’m a type of person who gets activated just by thinking of weights…

i never did max rep sets… I will do them when I feel the need to…

10

[quote]gavra wrote:

well, to tell you how long my sessions take… i would have to lie… cause sometime its 2 hours… sometimes more, sometimes less… normally I do as much pressing as I feel I can recover from… I never had the problem of frying myself, cause on a little more than slight drop of performance I stop… I mean, with this kind of frequency and volume… who cares if I did a set or two less… when I did like one million sets in that year…
i never did max rep sets… I will do them when I feel the need to…
[/quote]

Thanks.

I train clients (strength trainees and soft tissue clients) so it is difficult to get more than a solid hour of pressing for me. And, at my age, if I’m being honest, 75 minutes is about my max, and it would become a problem to do multiple sessions while maintaining the weekly frequency. So I’ll need to figure the best way within those constraints. I’m going to focus even more on waveloading in the zone with performance as the key, and not push the max triples so much, but rather let them come to me.

The different schools of ‘volume’ accumulation are interesting to compare. Decades ago, under Gironda, he had us doing 8 x 8 in supersets of paired movements (a derivative of German Volume that he actually popularized), accumulating about 24 sets per every 25 minutes. The advanced guys trained 2x (even 3x daily for the elite BBs). I also have a friend who won the America in the mid 90s. While he was formerly a powerlifter, his basic approach was to compile sets of 10 one week and sets of 15 on opposite weeks–on all movements. Sick volumes… Of course, the pharmacy matters, so when guys tried to emulate him, fast tendonitis (and worse) befell the many who did not understand that. Anyway, that is past. The younger guys are fortunate to have access to this Perfect Rep approach today.

Do you do sled work? On what auxiliary exercises are you using greater than 5 reps? I’ll probably start trying to get these in–alternate style-- on the early part of my pressing ramps rather than in separate sessions, but we’ll see.

What is your bodypart split like? Do you follow the current CT plan or something else?

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well, as far as younger guys and perfect reps… its just a new definition of what I did before… I remmember my first PL coach puts 50% on the bar and said do as many singles, till you dont feel the weight at all and find the perfect groove (thats feel sets obviously as CT says)…

also he was telling me that every rep and attempt in training should be like there is no weight on the bar… I should have a feeling that I can lift a house like that… thats probably his vision of perfect rep, not grinding, and lifting only what you’re sure of lifting (not trying crazy maxes where groove goes to hell)…

also I was learned that I shouldnt feel the light weight like its heavy, and that worst thing to happen is when you feel something like 300 pounds even when you take it out of the racks… like its a 1000 pounds… then he said to try and do more lighter singles… this is probably something like CNS is overloaded, so do some Neural Charge…

i dont know how good i explained everything, but basically the way I see it… when I read CT writings, I recognized those, and he became my favorite coach… and writer… cause 10x3 means nothing without those guidelines…

I dont know for US, but in eastern europe, almost any coach will train you like this, even for bodybuilding… not everyone is a coach ofcourse, so its not like every guy from russia or romania, or bulgaria will train like this…

CT explained it much easier, and actually gave it some phrases and names, so now I just say perfect rep, and I dont have to explain 10000 words how a weight and rep should feel…

i explained above what ELSE i added from CT, things that I couldnt understand from my coaches, and now I’m making progress of my life… I’m hovering around 92-93 kilos (dropped from 98 few weeks before) and my strenght is going up… I can rocket launch with paused 210 kilo bench raw CLOSE GRIP (i dont try for more, noo need to in current phase)… before a meet I will rearange training to go competition width and go maybe for heavier weights…

yeah I do sled work everyday, but now its -13 celsius over here, so havent done in for few weeks, and I feel the difference :(… well, auxiliary, I did them when I tried to emulate US Flex magazine writings… but now I do basic pressing and floor presses, or something thats as closer as possible related to benching, or OH pressing… javelin presses, military, incline, floor, pin presses, plyo-push up… do I dont go more than 5 reps… from time to time, when I’m pump hungry I do isolation circuit, like once in a month or so, but I didnt notice it does anything for me…

yeah… traps/rhombs/rear delts I just do staggered, really light weight and a squeeze and 6-10 reps… this way… i can do them without hurting and ven increasing pressing performance…

12

as far as split… I do concentrated loading… very similar to current CT’'s HP Mass… but it changes… I mean… sometime I come and plan to do neural charge, but end up doing pressing workout… sometimes i did presses every day for a week, increasing volume and weights from day to day… hell that way crazy week, people couldnt belleive it… and sometime I need neural charge in place of regular workout…

the least I do is 4 pressing workouts (4 upper and 4 lower) in a week… sometimes I do lower primary emphasis as called in HP Mass, and plan doing upper secondary emphasis, but I end up that workout looks like upper emphasis in number of sets… I wont limit myself if I feel this is the day to do it… and I also wont push myself if I feel washed out…

I’m not CT… so I dont know if this applies to other people, I havent trained anyone for that matter, and I’m not a coach… its just what works for me… and I will always tweak it… I like CT’s training lab, cause it always gives some ideas to try… circuit of pin press-bench press-push press-med. ball throw-plyo push up is soooooo GREAT, that I think I’m addicted to it now… actually I bench press more than in a regular ramp… so if performance is the key, i’m gonna do it till it works… hope ot works forever…

13

Those who are using something like HP Mass, how are you eating? Is anyone training fasted? If so, how are you doing it? Pulses? Some version of IF? For me, I still need 1 meal in meâ??of chewed foodâ??prior to training with high volumes.

14

i was eating like whole day, whenever i see food… up until a month ago… now I just try to get my protein requirement… and I force myself to do that… dont know whats wrong… but i cant eat… and training is not suffering so I guess… since I dont care if i’m 200 or 220 (actually the ligher and stronger the better)… for now I’m OK…

would like to try pulse fast/feast in current state of eating, but those supplements are not available in my country… cause drinking 2 liters of liquid is much easier than forcing myself to eat…

this is only current state, cause when my appetite is at its fullest, I eat till all food is gone, and could eat rocks after it i guess… whole day…

15

[quote]gavra wrote:
as far as split… I do concentrated loading… very similar to current CT’'s HP Mass… but it changes… I mean… sometime I come and plan to do neural charge, but end up doing pressing workout… sometimes i did presses every day for a week, increasing volume and weights from day to day… hell that way crazy week, people couldnt belleive it… and sometime I need neural charge in place of regular workout…

the least I do is 4 pressing workouts (4 upper and 4 lower) in a week… sometimes I do lower primary emphasis as called in HP Mass, and plan doing upper secondary emphasis, but I end up that workout looks like upper emphasis in number of sets… I wont limit myself if I feel this is the day to do it… and I also wont push myself if I feel washed out…

I’m not CT… so I dont know if this applies to other people, I havent trained anyone for that matter, and I’m not a coach… its just what works for me… and I will always tweak it… I like CT’s training lab, cause it always gives some ideas to try… circuit of pin press-bench press-push press-med. ball throw-plyo push up is soooooo GREAT, that I think I’m addicted to it now… actually I bench press more than in a regular ramp… so if performance is the key, i’m gonna do it till it works… hope ot works forever…[/quote]

Just curious when you add in lats or biceps, if you do at all.

appreciate the insight your giving out by the way.

16

for some reason it always falls on saturdays… after NC sometime without NC… lats… biceps… i do one circuit only… i’m a powerlifter… so dont need it too much… as a kid I was doing chins everyday… for years… and the back on my avatar is built after few 4week phases of sheiko preparatory… so DL’s only… beore it it was not as good…

17

Since I’ve been pressing so much more these days, I was surprised to see how well my biceps have remained even with very infrequent biceps work–almost no curls at all for months. Formerly, I did lots of chins–and that serves my biceps better than my lats-- but I’ve cut way back there too and still the biceps are fine. I take a hard grip on the bar for my pressing triples so my whole arm gets tight.

Forearms still need direct work though…

18

Hi gavra - i’m starting HP Mass and just reading through the forums. Very much enjoying what you’ve written, but could you just clarify what you mean by this please?:

“for reps, I just chase the most perfect one in a set before ending a set…”

Cheers,
Sreep

19

Garva is that you in your avi dude?

20

Thanks for sharing that article…I found it really interesting.