T Nation

Massive Eating Question?clarification

Bodybuilding
#1

Quick question regarding Massive Eating Reccomendations…and please don’t tell me to read it as I already have adn searched on it as well…Berardi says: “keto diets aren’t good becasuse you can’t pur on muscle, then he says eat P+C after traing until six hours later then eat P+F until the next workout…” “Protein and fat meals should be consumed from six hours after training until the next training session. After the six-hour time point discussed above, insulin sensitivity and glycogen resynthesis potential may decline, especially if a good amount of muscle damage was accomplished. At this time, hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia can lead to glucose tolerance, increased fat storage, and a high propensity to block fat mobilization.”

My question is this, If i work out 3x week (M, W, F) then my off days will be all P+F meals correct? So in essence, I’m eating T-Dawg/anobolic style until after the next workouts is this correct??

If it is how come in the same article he says: “figuring your meals for non-workout days is easy simply have 3 P+F and P+C meals”

I’m confused, is he reccomended carbs every day or just in the six hours after training on weight training days??? Thanks in advance

#2

On non training days the I find that alternating my meals .With this i mean meal one: P+f, Meal two: p+c, Meal three: P+F , Meal four: P+C, Meal five: P+F, Meal Six: P+F

#3

Eat three P+C and three P+F meals every day, not just the training days. Optimum would be the first three meals P+C because you are more sensitive to carbs after you wake up, and this sensitivity declines throughout the day so you should have P+F meals during the last half of the day.


I work out late so I adjust to have P+C meals delayed to after my workouts, but try to avoid carbohydrates late on the days I don’t work out.


This might be a good article for you.:


www.testosterone.net/articles/199ess.html


It strips down Berardi logic to its basic components for easier understanding. Then go over massive eating again to get a deeper understanding.

#4

He recommends you eat half of your meals in a P+C combination and half of your meals in a P+F combination, daily.

#5 
 Berardi says a little more than that. Read the article again. His principles apply to everyday, workout or not. His point was, on days you do work out, you should have your p+c meals for 6 hours after u work out, and p+f the rest of the day. If you don't work out, just spread your p+c meals throughout the day in an intelligent manner. In these, just make sure the first two meals of the day are p+c, as carbs will be more effectively used, and maybe a third p+c meal as your third or fourth meal - but never on your last two meals f the day. Hope this helps.
#6

GreekDawg, here’s what is really important. You are most insulin sensitive (a good thing) first thing in the morning when you are “breaking your fast” and in that six hours post-workout. Time your P+C meals so that you’re eating them first thing in the morning (on days you don’t work out) and one in the morning and two post workout (on days you do work out). Even the 3 P+F and 3 P+C meals is an arbitrary breakdown. Some people process carbs well and could probably eat 4 or 5 P+C meals without gaining weight. Others might have to adjust it to 2 P+C meals.



Take a look at T-Dawg 2.0. If you used T-Dawg and Berardi’s food combining principles you’d be set. T-Dawg will give you a little more guidance (i.e., hard numbers and amounts).



Any other questions, don’t hesitate to ask!

#7

Tampa-Terry and the Mage pretty much summed up what I would have to say. You can–and should–have P+C meals on the non-training days. I would say eat your P+C meals first (whether it be 2, 3, 4, etc) then your P+F.

I know JB used to say there were two approaches to this type of food combining (on off days): 1. the staggered approach (i.e. P+C, P+F, P+C, P+F or some derivative), or 2. all P+C or all P+F meals then the all P+F or all P+C, respectively (did I confuse you yet?) (grin).

However, if you read December's Feedback (i.e. the first question), then you might get a little more insight as to why the staggered approach might not be optimal.

#8

Thanks all for the advice…as I was saying I was eaeting no carbs at all on the off days…still remnants of the anabolic/poliquin style diet protocols. I’m beginning to see (slowly) that carbs aren’t the enemy as everybody makes them out to be. After a long layoff, my goal right now is to get hyoooge as possible…I remember in college I would just eat six solid meals a day with P+C+healthy fats like flax/fish oils, and this is when I got my biggest and LEANEST ( I was doing my sprint interval training) mind you. When I tried the anabolic diet, a few years ago, I did not feel I got bigger…at all. And what is more funny is now that type of diet is considered now “a diet” on here (T-Dawg). In the book, DipASquale said it could be used to gain as well…go figure? anyways, maybe it means I am more carb tolerant than I think I am, (as long as I do my interval training). It’s funny because I think the sprinting helped me get bigger as well…thoughts?? Tampa-Terry: I’m familiar with T-dawg, are you simply saying to use it as a guidline for the P+F meals? thanks to all

#9

Oops, I’m sorry, greekdawg. I should have figured out with your choice of Massive Eating that your goal was to put on muscle. T-Dawg is for dropping BF, and carbs are limited to facilitate that goal.



You’re right, carbs are not the enemy. You need them to grow. The reason for P+F and P+C food combining is to make sure that most of what you DO put on is lean muscle.



So on your non-workout days, half and half is good. Just time your P+C meals around the times people are typically most insulin sensitive.

#10

You’re correct my goal is to put on as much muscle as possible…here’s the thing though I like to train in the morning at around 6:30 am so I get up and have a P+F meal then hit the gym…on non training days you’re saying just to get up and have a P+C meal?? is that right?? Thanks for your help…oh BTW right now I get 8 meals on W/O days and 7 on off days

#11

Perfecto!!! grin)



Glad to hear you’re getting 7 or 8 meals, too!

#12

Any further suggestions or reccomendations you can think of? BTW, I saw Berardi says to consume the same amount of meals each day, but I take a HUGE protein and maltodextrin shake after wo/o days…I assume, this would not be advised for off days right?

#13

As someone else said here, some folks process carbs well. I am one of those. At 172 pounds, and 8% bodyfat, I have to eat around 400 grams of carbs per day to gain mass. No way can I do that unless I go carb heavy EVERY meal. Sometimes at the end of the day I’ll find that I still need carbs (based on mathematics) and I’ll down a can of 99% fat free raviolis at 8:00 PM. It works for me. I have to have a heck of alot of carbs to gain mass. In fact, given the standard 2-3 gms of carns per LBM to gain muscle, I really don’t see how ANYONE can gain muscle by eating their last three meals as P+F only. But, EVERYONE is different. That is the most important lesson persons can understand. Experiment and go with what works for YOU.

#14

Greek Diggity Dogg…you’re right: Nix the malto and protein shake on days you don’t train. I always remember JB hounding me that off days provided a special opportunity for those that were looking to gain mass. That is, JB would say that since one isn’t training, there is often time and opportunity to add another meal in the loop. So one option that you may consider is make up a meal, similar in nutrient and caloric content to your shake, and just squeeze that one in sometime during your P+C feeding frenzy.

That said, G-Dogg, I'm fond of training ASAP in the AM also. If you're following during workout nutrition, as I and others highly advocate, then you should have no problem with consuming a P+C meal before training also. You can go either way, I just thought I'd make sure you knew that option was available (grin).

If you're following Massive Eating and JB Guidelines, then another thing you should be sure of is that you're eating the same amount of calories on a daily basis to achieve your surplus of muscle-building calories.

#15

What’s everyones thought on using JB food combinations when an athlete has weights in the morning 6.00am and then football practice at 6.00pm. Eat P+C meals all day or try have 2 P+C meals after weights in the morning, and then have 1 P+F meal(lunch). Then have 1 P+C meal before practice and 2 P+C after practice. What are peoples thoughts?

#16

I would think that two P+C meals following the morning lifting session would be good-to-go. First, though, I’d have my guy down that Surge right afterwards (and during too). Then I’d say two P+F meals up to evening practice. After practice, you betcha, another Surge, then two more P+C meals.

Just a sidenote, though. I am not sure I would be so strict on meal combinations with athletes like football players. Remember, these guys are all about performance, which doesn't necessarily entail body composition. Before you hammer away at me, I realize that performance is related to one's lean body mass, and fat mass will likely detract from performance, but these types of athletes require a great deal of energy to make sure they're at peak performance, and I don't think that it's really necessary to get down to nitty, gritty details.

My above recommendations of the timing of meals would stand, though, in the case of two-a-day training.

#17

Good to see other morning trainers…I figure if I hit it early in the morning my muscles are “eating” all day and two, its done for the day…I don’t know about during workout nutrition though…I don’t think if I could hold it down…I warm up using a jump rope then dynamic stretching, then somedays I have powercleans and deadlifts on the menu, it migt not be pretty…But I always eat before I train about an hour or so…and always have the huge shake afterwards and another meal 1-1.5 hrs later…Do you think I would benefit that much more from having a during-workout shake??? Not to sound skeptical, but I mean come-on, if I keep the workouts under an hour at best, it seems like anything I drank during the workout would not even get digested and used before I left, so what would be the point?? Thoughts, criticsims, etc???

#18

Greek…If you’re using Surge or something with similar, pre-digested protein and easily absorbed carbs, then you should have no digestive problems during training. Also, concentration is important (i.e. 6-10%).

If your training is going well, then you should probably just stick to your guns. I feel that I benefit from having the during-workout nutrition, and it makes much sense physiologically.

#19

Timbo - Sounds good, totally agree with what your saying. Although what about using a 24 hour carb up period before the game. Do you think it’s a good idea or just continue to eat as per JB recommends?

#20

You’d have to go with how the athlete feels, my man. I mean, if he’s feeling a little down and flat then let him try a carb-up type of deal. If he’s good-to-gizzo, then don’t fool around with the diet.

This is my general feeling: we, as bodybuilders, pay much closer attention to the foods we eat--both quantity and quality--than most. In addition, we deprive ourselves, not only of certain foods and macronutrients, but often of adequate energy intake. As a result, our psychological and physiological responses are slightly more amplified, and we are much more in-tune with our responses.

Now, I would think that our athlete--in this case--would not be on a caloric-restrictive diet. So, energy intake should be adequate and energy reserves likewise. So a carb-up may very well be unnecessary. Again, you'd have to go with how he feels.