T Nation

Massive Eating-Getting Lean

Mr. Berardi, in your recent Appetite for Construction, you say to take 25% off maintenance calories. But, my question is, do you eat the same amount daily, as with Massive Eating, or do you take 25% off non-workout maintenance on non work-out days? I hope you can make sense of what I mean, because I’d really like to know. Also, how much will a glucometer cost me? Thanks.

ok i just called walmart like someone else said earler and all of the glucometers cost 40 bucks or more… but then they have their own brand that costs 9 bucks! plus the strips which were a little less than 20 dollars… not bad!

good question. take 25% of maintainance every day.

OK, John. So, for example, Massive eating says I need 4000 cal per day. So to get lean, I would eat 25% lower, which is 3,000 cal, every single day, regardless if I train or not? Correct?

Now you BOTH have me confused. By “maintenance” are you factoring in the energy expended at work and the gym, or do are just calling your resting metabolic rate your “maintenance” caloric intake?

Just thought I’d bump this up. Also, I might as well my related question that’s about four screens down now.

Where does the fat loss come from, since 25% off the Massive Eating maintainence is what many formulas (14-15 cal/lb., for example) would determine maintainence calories.

I understand the “fat threshold” idea when bulking up but I don’t see what causes a calorie-deficit-like effect in DON’T DIET.


I’d like to know the answer to this. I’ve been on Don’t Diet for almost three weeks now, and I must say the fat loss is CONSIDERABLY slower. I’m doing 3 carb/pro meals and 3 fat/pro meals, w. Surge as one of my carb/pro meals post-w. Cals are lower than what Don’t Diet suggests-I do 2100-2400 daily @ 5’7, 177 and 13.5 percent. I’m rather disappointed as I’ve never had problems losing fat w. most any other diet (CKD, Zone). Everyone seems to be on the bandwagon-anyone else having problems w. Don’t Diet?

Lawrence of A, how are you splitting up the c+p and the c+f meals? If eating 6 meals make the first three c+p and the last 3 c+f. This is what Berardi recommends if you want to accelerate the fat loss. If you want slower fat loss then stagger the meals.

Z, I am using the taper method. I’m also starting to wonder if it’s the fructose that’s having an effect. I use 1 or 2 Grow shakes a day, and 1/2 a banana in my oatmeal in the am. Training-wise, I’m doing a 5/5 King split, just shooting for maintenance. I have had great success w. German Body Comp but I found once I went back to mass phase I lost a lot off my one-rep maxes, although my endurance was better. I may have to add some cardio to the mix, although I have much better LBM maintenance w/o it. According to DD I should be eating approx. 2800 calories, but considering my problems w. 2100-2300 I am not going anywhere near that level. I could see how this could be a very successful mass program but I have my doubts about fat loss.

Lawrence of A, you mention a couple of servings a day of Grow. I wonder if the maltodextrin in the Grow, being a high GI food, may be holding you back a bit. I think there’s about 27 grams of carbs in the Grow so 2 servings equals 54…not really a lot, but who knows, everyone is different. There is another thread “Massive Eating and MRP’s” that asks the question about MRP’s in the massive eating plan but Berardi never responded to it. I’d be interested in hearing what he has to say.

When I did the calculations for maintenance, I noticed that JB has you multiply your RMR by a number based on your activity level. Well, RMR is the number of calories you burn to stay alive during a 24 hour period, but it didn’t make sense to me to multiply my RMR by 1.5 (office work) because I’m not doing office work 24 hours a day. So, I figured out how many calories I burn while awake for 16 hours (office work/light activity, 1.5) and 8 hours of sleep (counted this as bed rest/very light activity, 1.2). Anyway, this number came out to be 3001 for me. My original number was 3213. That’s a 212 calorie difference, not counting exercise! I am thinking this through correctly?

It isn’t the maltodextrin. The carbs in Grow are predominantly fructose (16 g. out of 23)-this is what I was wondering about. I’ve used MRP’s that were almost all maltodextrin many times with no problem losing fat. Yeah, fructose is lower GI but I don’t think it’s all that wonderful for fat loss.

Read the “forbidden fruit” article by cy willson at t-mag. Nothing wrong with a little fructose.

I don’t really see how high GI carbs in only 3 meals would hinder fat loss all that much. It’s been proven that you can lose fat on high GI carbs and lord knows I’ve done it myself. I lost a ton of weight last year on a steady diet of whole wheat bread, waffles, etc… We all know that energy balance is THE most important factor.

The reason your fat loss is slower probably has more to do with your calorie intake being higher than usual while dieting. I can almost guarantee you that if you eat the current amount of calories as you do right now but switch to low GI carbs that you won’t see much of a difference. I do believe that low GI carbs can be an overall improvement, but not so much as to make fat loss so inherently better. especially when you only eat them 3 out of 6 meals a day, and one of those is post workout and SHOULD be high GI. So now you’ve got 2 meals of high GI carbs and now for some miraculous reason this alone is stopping fat loss. Of course it isn’t, I think your calorie intake is higher than usual. The don’t diet formula for calorie intake is higher than any other formula I’ve used. Therefore that alone would make your total fat loss slower than usual. However if you were to follow those meal ratios with a lower caloric deficit you would see similar, and probably better results than previous diets.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking JMB’s theories. I believe that low GI carbs have a definite advantage over high GI carbs and in the long run you would lose more weight with the low GI option. However I don’t think that 2 simple meals that have less than optimum GI ratings will hinder your fat loss as much as you’d like to think. There are a great many factors to consider when dieting, but energy balance is absolutely the most important no matter how you cut it. You can eat the lowest GI and insulin index carbs with the perfect protein and fat, but if you eat too much you will gain weight. Simple as that.

Spanky- That was an interesting point. However, I’m sure John knows that, but for simplicity’s sake, just uses the one multiplier. Also, it is a Mass Gain program, so using the high multiplier would only make sense.

VCreed, good point. For guys trying to put on weight it’s not a big deal, and is probably a good thing. Just figured I’d mention it for those of us trying to drop weight.

Exactly. That’s why I’m trying to clear up the calorie consumption confusion.

I recall Mr. Berardi saying in another post that he has been dieting himself and he is breaking his meal schedule into 6 meals per day. The first 3 are all p+f, the 4th is the postworkout p+c, #5 is p+c and #6 is p+f.
So only 2 p+c meals per day with one being the post workout drink and the other one being a couple of hours later.

I’ve been ahving a lot of trouble w the don’t diet plan. on days i don’t lift 1 serving surge after 30 min on empty stomach. then 1 cup oatmeal and 9 egg whites, next meal is 2 chicken breasts 1 C oatmeal. Then my fat meals are chicken with peanuts and a tbsp flax oil, repeat of first fat meal or 95% lean burgers with a salad and flax. The nutrients break down to about 240 of pro 200 carb 80 fat. When you couple that in with 3-4 days of lifting, 2.5 miles of cardio 6 times a week, MD6, Methoxy 7 and insulene(d pintol,glucosol,alpha lipoic acid) it is extremely frustrating. Any sugestions?