Massive Eating by John Berardi

I’d really like to know the limit for carbs for the “protein/fat” meals. Does it have to be as strict as a ketogenic diet, meaning basically zero carbs? Or can I throw an apple in with my 3/4lbs of beef and cheese?

First, I want to thank RACER for adding in the figures for Activity Levels and Exercise Expenditure (METS). That saves me time and space. So now you guys have the other numbers to fit into your own equations. Hey RACER, I know you were at the Seminar, but what is your real name? Did I meet or speak with you and not know it? A few of us were wondering who you were!

Okay, let me try to answer some more questions. First, Johnathan. Johnathan, I’m glad you’ve enjoyed the info on John Berardi’s Massive Eating plan. And yes, this is a plan for GAINING, not dieting. Although, with some tweaking, it is similar to John’s “Don’t Diet Diet.” And I’m glad you are going to follow one of the other plans. There is no problem with the Delta or the Get Big diet at this stage in the game for you.

And to answer you question, muscle is made of protein, not glycogen. So the different meal ratios are suggested by John for reasons his research has shown. Also, yes, I'm TRYING to follow this diet. I'm still not quite up to the amount of calories I need, but I'm doing better. Going from 2,200-2,500 calories to more than 3,000 is not an easy job. As for my training, I'm following a 12-week program with a three-day split where I do abs, vertical pushing, horizontal pulling and biceps on day one. I do abs, hip and quad dominant, and calves on day two, and I do abs, vertical pulling, horizontal pushing and triceps on day three. I work out either Mon, Tues, Thur or Mon, Wed, Fri or some variation. It depends on my work schedule and other things that are going on. I've cut back to three-days-a-week due to my own recovery abilities, the fact that I work full-time, and I am rehabbing a shoulder and knee injury. On some of my off days, I mountain bike or rollerblade. My training program is one I designed myself from info I read in Ian's books "Get Buffed" and "How to Write Strength Traning Programs." So it's similar to the programs he has written on T-mag. It's just more specific to my own current needs and imbalances.

MarkG, I don't know the answer to your question about adding fat to a high GI meal. I don't think it's recommended because it slows absorption. John will have to answer that one.

Flex69, there are problems with the 40/30/30 diet that John addressed in the Don't Diet Diet. I don't have that with me. Sorry! I do have my Get Massive notes with me today! And I'm not sure if 12g fat and 25-30g carbs is what John would say is good or not. Too me, that is not a low fat, high carb meal, it's more like the high carb, high fat meal that he recommends you avoid.

Timbo, you should be happy now that you have the other numbers thanks to Racer! :) But I'll take that Biotest gift certificate and instead of Playboy, you can extend my current subscription to Penthouse or Gallery for a lifetime! ;)

Have I answered everything yet? This is getting long, I’ll cut it off for now!

field…It’s confusing as all hell, isn’t it, buddy??? That’s what this game’s all about though. Things are constantly changing, with new training, nutrition and supplementation ideas always being thrown out the window. I have the utmost respect for JB (Dr. Berardi) and all the work he’s done. I mean, look at this whole post-workout nutrition deal…this is revolutionary, my friend, courtesy in large part to the good Doc.

I’ll try to drop some more knowledge on you, but this is starting to get over my head a bit and I don’t want to mislead anyone–I’m just a student. I too have always been under the impression of controlled, stable insulin levels throughout the day, thus the nice meal combos of protein, fibrous, complex carbs and some good fats. I also thought that going with a 40/30/30 ratio of protein/fats/carbs was a good way to go about it. Glucagon is an extremely important hormone in using fatty acids as fuel. As long as insulin is present, chances are that fatty acids will be synthesized into fats and stored. Glucagon, however, breaks down fats into fatty acids, which can then be used for energy. One thing that does cause some concern for me anyway, is that glucagon breaks down proteins into aminos (gluconeogenesis) which I belive are then converted to glucose. Now, I wonder whether gluconeogenesis causes an increase in insulin secretion. It’s very complex, that’s for sure. One guess that I have to this is that this is an intentional period of over-feeding. So maybe glucagon helps in keeping fat gain in check. Just a guess though. I need to study some more. It’s really cool stuff! I know I didn’t really answer any questions, field. I apologize. I guess I’m just thinking out loud. One thing that I really do like is the science behind figuring out how much I need to shove down my piehole. No more of that multiply by 16, 17, 18 stuff and add 300 cals if you’re not making gains. Science, baby, science.

Doug...great question. I think most of us are wondering the same thing. I've never done a ketogenic diet, so I'm not sure what the carb restrictions are per meal, per se. But I imagine that some veggies or maybe an apple might be okay. Don't quote me on this. Again, only JB has the goods. I think it's best to be patient until the good Doc's article comes out or he quits laughing at all of us and "throws us a bone" :-) (I like that one Hyok)

Maybe this will help. Okay, we know how to figure out the correct energy balance (with the formulas). The second step is the right meal combinations. John says high carb meals promote high insulin levels wich shuttles fat inot fat cells for fat storage and it prevents fat breakdown. So stay away from too many carbs.

What about fat slowing carb absorption and lowering the GI? Fat does lower the glycemic index of food, but fat + carbs causes an insulin release. So we see that high carbs alone and high carbs and fat are a NO-NO.

But, if you combine protein and carbs without fat it has a synergistic insulin release that maximizes protein synthesis and minimizes protein breakdown. High insulin may inhibit fat breakdown but no new fat will be stored! That's a good thing.

Protein and fat without carbs provides a steady source of energy without quick shunting into the fat cells. And fatty meals increase the use of fat for energy. There is a lack of insulin response so less chance of protein breakdown.

Let’s sum up the negatives and positives. Protein and Carbs w/o fat have the following positives: 1) insulin shuttles aminos and glucose into muscle for anabolism and prevention of catabolism. 2) Fat storage is minimized by no fat intake. The negative is that insulin may inhibit fat breakdown.

For Protein and fat meals w/o carbs you have the following positives: 1) Increased use of fat for energy 2) Glucose is not burned but stored 3) Small insulin response. The negative is that there is no insulin response to maximize protein synthesis and prevent breakdown.

So the key is figuring out your own individual response to food combinations. And that is why you should try those two different 8-week eating plans to figure out which is best. I hope that helps!

Timbo - confusing, yeh just a little! you think youve got one thing cracked then bang! someone tells you something different. I think the idea of a 40:30:30 diet/meals are a good basic guide however for athletes i would proberly go with 40:40:20 just to amp the carbs slightly. Here’s something to confuse the matter even more, post workout i’ve just been flicking through some work by Dr Michael Colgan whos work i really respect and he recommends adding flax oil 20-30grams to post workout shake, what ever happened to trying to elevate insulin levels after training! surley this would happer the effect. Also Post workout you mix pro & carbs which is shown to raise insulin levels higher then carbs alone, know during the day we mix protein & carbs to stablise insulin and not have the Yo-Yo effect. Know unless i’m talking out of my ass ring the above two contradict each other. One more thing to get off my chest high protein diets, which do you reccomend 1gram, 1.5grams 2grams. per pound of body weight or per pound lean body weight does fat need protein i know muscles, hormones, ect ect do. there must be a limit were enought is enought as you said earlier timbo, excess protein is converted to glucose anyway. during a gaining phase, training 3-4 times a week, the ‘Get Big diet’ reccomends 0.8g protein Lb body weight yet sums of 1.5g protein are being passed across by the ‘messenger’ Nate Dogg, now i don’t want to train my plums off and my progress is being halted because i’m missing out on so many grams of pro. Any Way thats my bitch out of the way. Timbo or anyone else the words ‘through me’ and ‘frickin bone’ come to mind.

Hey guys, Ive gotta clarify something. Some guys have been calling me Dr and that’s not accurate yet. I still have to finish my dissertation data collection so until then, it’s just John. Also, it’s valentines day and my girl is gonna kill me cause Im spending more time on here (and in the lab, and in the classroom, and in the gym) than Im spending with her. So I need to make this brief. I have a week off next week and will be finishing off the articles on massive eating and dont diet then. Then it’s a matter of t-mag finding a spot for them in upcoming updates. T-mag may not need to since nate is giving away all the info here :slight_smile: Here are some quick thoughts…foods for the plan…high fat, high protein…I like a can of salmon, green salad, 1tsp flax, and a protein shake…also 8oz beef, green salad, 1tsp flax…there are endless combos. Bottom line is to stay below 5g-10g of carbs on these meals. On your high protein, high carb meals here are my favorites…1 serv oats, 1 scoop protein, 1 scoop grow, 1 piece of gran bread, 1 piece of fat free cheese…another is 2 cups skim milk, 1 scoop protein, 1 scoop grow, 1 piece of grain bread, 1 piece fat free cheese…another is 12 egg whites, 1 serving oats, 1 piece of grain bread, 1 piece of fat free cheese. Get it? On these meals only eat 0-5g fat. Using a diet where some meals are high carb and protein and others are high fat and protein, you can hopefully eat to grow and lose fat at the same time. Insulin sensitivity has to be high though. So in my articles Ill be telling you how to test and to improve insulin sensitivity. Dont rush me on this, though. In zone diets people think that balanced diet means protein fat and carbs. I think this is a silly notion. I think the zone diet ratios can be followed for the total day (i.e. at the end of the day you’ve eaten 40-30-30) but each meal shouldn’t be of zone proportions (i.e some meals are less than 10% fat and others are less than 10% carbs). I dont like fat and carbs in the same meals. And as far as fat being good to decrease the gi, that’s all fine and good but it increases the insulin release to that meal. And that’s not fine and good. Ill give you all you want to know in my articles. Until then, be well.

Thanks for the info, John. We’ll wait patiently for the article. I think some of the guys wanted to milk you for more info by flattering you with the Dr. title, so don’t feel too good about it :wink:

The man has spoken!!! Thanks, JB, that totally clears things up for me and was relatively what I suspected. I apologize for trying to sub-in for you by explaining some of the mechanisms and answering questions, but this whole deal is so exciting. Now, go get jiggy wit’ it, JB! You’ve done way too damn much for us, go do something for yourself and your honey.

Nate Doggie Dogg, I just wanted to express my gratitude to you again. Thanks for sharing all the great info. And, if you have any more tricks up your sleeve (which I'm sure you do), please share. BTW, Penthouse and Gallery said they won't validate the subscription request till you stop TRYING to eat and just do it and pack on some mass! Just kidding with ya, buddy; I'm on the same boat, shoving my piehole. Great job on the positives and negatives too, Nate Dogg.

field...stop asking so many questions! Just kidding, buddy. Like JB said, there's nothing wrong with a 40/30/30==>at the end of the day. This is just a plan that JB is proposing and feels confident about. I like the way it sounds and probably will give it go (actually kind of already have been). Of course if you've been doing something that's been working for you and you're happy with it, no reason to switch things up. Personally, I feel like I'm treading water in terms of mass gains, this is something new and I'm ready to try it on for size. I am confident that the post-workout shake should NOT contain flax or Udo's. I realize that studies may show some benefit, but all I have to do is read JB's articles and the the resources he cited. As far as protein goes, you're going to hear so many different opinions. I like to eat LOTS of protein. I'd rather have more than not enough. 2g/lb of bodyweight for me is about what I shoot for. Unfortunately, this may be a bit too high, as many people will say that it's metabolically costly and you'll just piss it out or your body will become very efficient and just immediately convert it to glucose.

Ummm…Nate
Either my glasses are on back to front or something, but I can’t figure your “Second RMR equation” (RMR = 500 + 22(58) = 1776)?
Care to assist my confused state?

I guess all we need to know now to give this diet an honest shot is which meal type to use for which meal. Of course, post-workout is going to be the protein/carb combo. I’m guessing breakfast will be the same. I have a difficult time thinking of stomaching a big protein/fat meal right before bed, so I’m not sure about that meal. For the other three meals of the six will, it will be the protein/fat combo. What do you guys think of this?

Dougie Fresh…I agree that timing of the specific meal combos is a critical factor as well. The post-training meal should no doubt be high protein and carbs. Personally though, I’m going to test-drive a different route. I normally train in the early afternoon and consume about 3 meals prior to training. After training I usually have 3 or 4 as well (a grand total of 6 or 7). My plan is to go with the high protein, high fat, no carb meals all prior to training. Following training, I will go with high protein and higher carbs and no fat. I’m going to give this a go and see how it works.

Hmm, makes me think I’m making a mistake with my modified Zone diet. (getting sick of chicken again anyway). John Berardi says with this plan it’s possible to build muscle and lose fat simultaneously. It seems something like the T-Dawg diet fits into this plan, or the Anabolic Diet with post-workout carbs (no fat. The only time I think it would be wise for high carbs would be post-workout. Any other time for me would know me out. And since John recommended ground beef as a meal, something like 4 meals as ground beef, like the Anabolic Diet. And save most carbs post-workout, 45g protein and 25-30g carbs. I’m willing to try something like this if it’s what John’s talking about. Of course, gotta have a 1 day Carb-up Saturday, as well. But any opinions? Also, is there any advantages to the fat post-workout, in terms of continuing to burn fat? Such as the ground beef after u lift during the Anabolic Diet? This is something I read from Dr. Serrano once to eat high fat and protein, little carbs post-workout to continue to benefit from the fat-burning effects of exercise.

Timbo, I hear you, but I can’t talk because I’m stuffing my piehole! So why don’t you call up Penthouse and Gallery for me and get my subscription turned into a lifetime! heheheh. :slight_smile:

Rowbie, the equation for RMR is just as you had it listed. Take your Fat Free Mass in KG and multiply it by 22, then add 500. So since my Fat Free Mass is 58kg x 22 + 500 = 1,776. Does that clear it up for you? Just put in your amount of Fat Free Mass where mine is listed. It should work. Then you just have to figure out the other equations. If anything else is confusing, just let me know. I’d be happy to help clear it up!

Big John Berardi (yeah, you, with the big-ass arms!), I'm sorry to have jumpped the gun on your upcoming article. I hope you don't mind. I know your article will clear things up even more than I can explain. But I at least wanted to give everyone the basic tips and equations so they can figure out their energy balance and start playing with some meal combinations.

I was just so excited about this diet plan of yours that I couldn’t contain myself. I look forward to the article on the Don’t Diet Diet too! Maybe after I get massive, I’ll need to try that one out! :wink:

JB…my man, I just caught on another thread your current stats. Astounding, absolutely astounding…(for those you who didn’t catch ‘em: 6’, 200 pounder, 5-6%). JB, I just wanted to thank you again and tell you how much I appreciate and respect all that you’ve done and in the lab, at your desk, for t-mag (and in the gym). Also, thanks for spending so much time on the forum addressing all our questions, as petty as they may sometimes seem. I wondered also if you follow this type of nutritional protocol in your own regimen, and if so, how long has it been part of your arsenal? Thanks again, big guy.

Nate Dogg...just another thanks to you too, soon-to-be big guy. I really appreciate you sharing all this valuable info (and getting JB involved and "throwing us part of the bone"). Now, go get your grub on, boy! That's what I'm fixin' to do.

Timbo, thanks bro! I’m all over that food. Damn, this isn’t easy! I’m an eating machine. Uh oh, I think my abs are beginning to get covered up. I’m scared! I don’t want to get fat! :wink:

Must...get...MASSIVE...must...eat..more! Hey, just to throw you guys another bone, John has changed his thinking about consuming a lot of protein post-workout. In fact, he has figured out that too much protein is not beneficial and may hinder progress. I don't remember the exact amount, but your best is to consume like 20-40 grams of protein and 50-100 grams of carbs post-workout (depending on body size). I'm sure JB will elaborate on that in his article. Just thought I'd share that tidbit.

And yes, John is pretty damn big. His arms must be 19 inches. But he says they are only 17 (which is still big), but I saw them up close, and they are more than 17 inches! And don't let Tom Incledon, the walking research paper, fool you! He's a big guy too! I doubt many of his collegues argue with him over his research.

I have a question about the RMR equation and “massive eating.” From what I’ve read, it seems like Nate Dogg’s equation for what must be eaten everyday to get massive only takes into account calories that would be needed to avoid a deficit; that is, just enough calories. Am I missing something?

Also, can the RMR equation be used for fat loss as well. I would think so, but it’s a different equation for RMR than ones I’ve seen in the past so I’m wondering if it’s tailored specifically to massive eating.

Dystopiate, the energy surplus comes on the rest days, because the calorie intake is kept the same regardless. Isn’t that right, Nate Dogg?

Hyok, you are exactly right. On the days you are training, you’ll be consuming the exact amount of calories to make up for your RMR, TEF, Activity Level and Exercise Expenditure. But on the days that you aren’t working out, you burn less, which means you have a surplus at the end of the week. This weekly surplus is what will help you gain weight!

I was also at the seminar (I was the other 145 pound guy). What really impressed me about JB’s ‘Massive Eating’ was that John eats around 5000 kcal/day - and is ripped. He does have about 50 pounds on me and the Dogg, and is gifted with a fast metabolism, but he is living proof that he knows what he is talking about.

You guys both weigh 145 pounds and you need somebody at a seminar to tell you to take in more calories? Stevie Wonder could have told you that. I suggest you stop searching for some miracle diet and concentrate on eating every two-three hours on a consistent day by day basis.