T Nation

Mass Stack


#1

Ok guys, after about 5 years of just using juice half-heartedly. By that I mean doing like 1 bottle of Deca/1 bottle of Test like once every 2 years. I have decided to start a serious mass cycle. I have been training naturally for about 9 years and I feel that I have hit the limit of my genetic potential. I realized that taking steroids is a choice not to be taken lightly and when your on them that to really see results you have to train and eat like an animal, and make sure you get at least 8 hours of sleep a night. (Actually that's what I do now without taking juice). Anyway here is my cycle that I will be starting in about a month:

DBol: 25-30mg/day for 6 weeks
Test Enth: 500mg/Week for 10 weeks
Deca: 300mg/Week for 10 weeks
Nolva: 20mg/day (as needed),
then for 3-4 weeks after the cycle I will be using 40 mg of Nolva a day tapering off to 20mg, and Clomid for 3-4 weeks after.

What do you guys think? Sound good or What?


#2

Test: Front load to 1000mg first week, with 500 mg thru week ten.
Deca: Front load to 800 mg first week, with 400 mg thru week ten.
DBOL: 40 mg ed thru week 5.
Nolva: 20 mg ed of the cycle.
Clomid: should start with 100 mg ed for 1 week. This should start 2 weeks after your last injection. Then 50 mg ed for 2 weeks.

The reason I say use nolva ed of the cycle is that this is what I have done this last cycle. It seems to be easier to come off with it already in your system. I am in my last week of PCT and this is the best PCT I have ever had. No problems at all.

JW


#3

I think you will like that stack. I definitely reccomend front-loading like willie-razorback said (i never remember anyone's names. I get into this reply window and don't see what i was reading). Only problem I see with his advice, which is sound, is that you don't have enough gear to follow his reccomendations.

Looks like you have 2 bottles of 10ml enthanate (250mg/ml) and 1 bottle of 10ml deca (300mg/ml). The front loading and extra deca dose will leave you a shorter cycle. More like 8 weeks of test and you will run out of deca sooner (~6.5 weeks). Which is just as good, unless your heart is set on a 10 week cycle. I usually only go 8 weeks anyway due to this same issue. Am I starting to blabble on ... Anyway. You want to run your test a little longer than the deca anyway. So all is good advice from willie.


#4

I like will's outlind above, especially the pct. Using nolva during and that clomid regimin afterward is precisely what I did during and after my cycle, and recovery is going very well for me. Good luck

dezz


#5

I don't agree with this post at all.

The half life of the decanoate ester is 15 days +. This means that you can expect nandrolone to be still present in large enough quantites to be supressive in your body for up to six weeks after your last injection.

To minimize this liability, you need to run your test for 10 weeks, and front the first three weeks of the deca dosage, so that you get all your injections finished in the first 7 weeks. This will enable the testosteone to be the last drug to taper out of your body, which will make for a much smoother recover.

Starting clomid therapy so soon after your last injection is outright idiotic! As I said the deca will cause suppression for as long as six weeks. Your clomid therapy will be finished by 4 weeks post cycle well before you are even ready to begin recovery.

This is of course an all too common error that bodybuilders make - comming off cycle, they drastically underestimate the time it will take for blood levels of the steroids to drop to low enough levels where recovery can even be attempted.

They think recovery is going well, but they don't realize that it is actually not even begun yet! and they are still 'on'.
Then 4 weeks down the line, they wonder why they have all of a sudden 'crashed' and their sollution, is to go back on another cycle.

My advice to you is to sell your nolvadex and clomid, as they are just junk you won't need.

Get some arimidex or femara.

You should take the arimidex at about 1 mg eod throughout your use of testosterone.

Then take it for another three weeks following your last injection.

that first week, use it eod
the second week every third day,
and the fourth week every fourth day.

This way as the blood levels of testosterone fall, and the corresponding rate of estrogen being produced, you are concurently reducing your need for arimidex, as the primary goal is to keep estrogen within physiological norms throughout your entire cycle.

It you do this, then at the end of this period, as exogenous testosterone levels fall off, your hypothalmus will sense it via a decrease in estrogen, and your hpta will automatically restart. This of course is a slow gradual process, as hormone levels do not drop sharply, which will give plenty of time for the testes to regain size and function, as the need for testosterone production increases.

Anyone can run a successful cycle, it just takes using enough mg of AAS. In then end what truly differentiates between success and failure is your state of being once you come off the steroids.


#6

PRISONER#22 nailed it on the head. you should definetly cut the deca at least 3 weeks before you cut the test. Trying to recover otherwise will suck! trust me been there, done that.


#7

P-22,

Thanks for a good post loaded with good info. I for one and glad you are still here and posting.

Best of luck with your cycle, let us know how it goes.

Monopoly


#8

P22,

I am guessing that this is all IMO. I noticed that you posted something similar in another post. This is something that totally goes against everything I have read and researched since joining the nation.

Not starting a pissing contest here, just wondering what if.

Please reply when you get a chance and yes I agree with Monopoly on you still posting here and sharing your advice.

JW


#9

I am not starting a pissing contest at all here, I am only trying to help you guys.

The fact is there is a lot of miss-information out there.

Sadly, I did my share of it a few years back I am sure, but the last few years I have learned a lot, just by experimenting with different theories.

The methods I present now, I origionaly got from Cy Wilson. The logic behind it is so much more sound.

Simply put, when you come off cycle you want to normalize, that means removing drugs from your body, not adding more!

The testosterone bridge achieves this, as the transision from on cycle to off cycle is so seamless the only effect you notice is testicular hypertrophy, and the accompanying soreness of such.

If anything my mission now is to convince as many people as possible to try this approach, and forget about using products such as hcg, clomid and nolvadex.


#10

i've somewhat been using the approach P-22 is talking about in my last few cycles....not exactly the same but along the same principles i guess....I always run an AI, and have been tapering my test (prop at the end of long estered cycles, or just prop for the last week of shorties) and have noticed i get a smoother transition into "recovering". I'm kinda apprehensive about not running the typical PCT drugs...maybe a self experiment is in order, get first hand feedback.


#11

P-22,
so you use 1mg of arimidex b.i.d. throughout the cycle. Then the femara for post cycle recovery? week 1 b.i.d., week 2 t.i.d. , week 3 four time a day?


#12

No problems here Brother. You have my respect 100%.

It makes me stop and think about my next cycle. I am now glad that we are having this conversation because my next cycle is a Test E and Deca, Dbol cycle and I haven't yet decided to run any parabolan at the end.

My last cycle was great, and was somewhat similar but I ran EQ instaed of deca.

I have some fem in liquid form from AG. I may go this route for a experiment on myself and see how it goes. If you use fem, how many milligrams at EOD?

Thanks for the quick reply from both you and Juice.

JW


#13

You have to read what I said again:

You should take the arimidex at about 1 mg eod throughout your use of testosterone.

Then take it for another three weeks following your last injection.

that first week, use it eod
the second week every third day,
and the fourth week every fourth day

The obreviations you use mean twice a day, and three times a day!


#14

Femara dosages should be about double arimidex - that means 1 mg every day or 2 eod.

Btw here is an additional explaination I left for some bros that pm'd me...

The reason why I suggest running the test enanthate for a few weeks longer then the Nandrolone decanoate: Since nandrolone does not convert to dht (meaning it doesn't support a libido), as it tapers down, the conversion of progesterone, along with its ability to bind well with the AR will continue to cause suppression, therefore not alowing for natural testosterone production, untill it begins to fall bellow natural physiological norms. The small amount of test produced during this time will not be enough to sustain a libido, especially since sex-hormone-binding-globulin binds 98% of all sex hormones produced.

That is why it is better to come off with testosterone as your last steroid in your system, as it will support your libido, as it tapers, allowing your own natural testosterone production to slowly ramp up. There will be no loss of libido or 'crash', as The falling levels of exogenous test will fill in for the inadequate levels of endogenous test. As levels fall further, levels of endogenous test rise, and recovery is as seamless as can be.

Clomid and nolva therapy won't work anyway untill steroids are sufficiently clear of the body - Though never proven, there is a good indication that steroids that bind to the AR strongly cause suppression by this method as well as by aromatization of estrogen or conversion to progesterone. That is why you can take all the pct drugs you want, but without full clearance of the steroids used, recovery cannot be achieved.

Hcg has its own problems with causing desensitization to the leydig receptors. Why would you want to use a drug that would cause suppression to yet another level of the hpta?

Therefore by utilizing the testosterone bridge, while keeping estrogen well under control - I myself have used a masteron enanthate/ test enanthate mix to achieve this - There is no need for hcg, as the testicles have time to rebound as the need for natural test production SLOWLY rises. Recovery is seamless this way, and there is no crash.

Not only is this a healthier approach physically, it is also mentally a healthier approach, as low testoterone levels/ low libido can really play head games with people.

In the hospital we taper off corticosteroids really smoothly to avoid inflamitory shock, so why would we quit anabolic steroids cold turkey?

Yes you might be 'on' longer, however once levels of testosterone fall below physiological norms in the taper, you can all but consider yourself not on AAS, and your body - including all body systems, will return to homeostasis.


#15

I'm on my 5th week and my cycle is pretty close to yours. I run 1cc of Deca and 2cc os Test Cyp. a week.I ran Dbol for 4 weeks at 25mg everyday. It will be 4 on 4 off and 4 on again. I'm running Deca for 10 weeks and Test for 12. I love the results I'm up to 237 pounds and my strength is that I'm pleased.It took 3 weeks for me to see results.


#16

Cool. Thanks for your time. You sold me.

I'm going back to the drawing board. I have an excel spreadsheet with my next cycle in it. I am gong to change it and taper the Test E, and use fem as an AI throughout. I will post it tomorrow morning so if you get time....

Juice was right.... self experiment...

JW


#17

Love your posts on this thread Prisoner. It goes against everything I thought I knew about PCT, but I'm always open to new ideas. I'd love not to have to use Clomid or Nolva during PCT, as neither of them agree with me.

Do you use any natural supplements during your PCT to try and restimulate natural test production. For instance I've read a lot of good things on T-Nation about Alpha Male and was thinking of including it post cycle. What are your views on these types of supplements?


#18

I think alot of posts on this thread are correct. We all share the same goal (hugeness) but have different ways of getting there. P 22 def knows his shit, but other members have good points to make as well. My take on juice is U have find what works best for U. Only thru trial & error will u do that. My 2 cents.

Peace out G. < Joke


#19

pct is all about restoring homeostasis - your body's natural state. So why would you add something else into the equation? Alpha Male is cornerstoned by tribulus, which is a sythetic LH analog much like hcg, except ALOT weaker. This would suppress your hpta to some extent, and is better taken during cycle to maintain size and function of your testes, then taken post cycle, when you are trying to get your pituitary gland to do the work.


#20

I am with you. I am open to all and every idea. The more that I think about it, the more since it makes, even if it isn't the norm.

JW