[quote]abcd1234 wrote:
HotCarl28 wrote:
-There was a dbl blind study done on gibbons in which male and female gibbons were given toy trucks and baby dolls. Females spent significantly more time playing with dolls while males spent significantly more time playing with trucks
[/quote]
They should do a study where they let male chimps choose between Toyota Prius or a muscle car, like this '68 Ford Mustang. 10 to 1 the male chimps take the Mustang.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
For anyone to say that our sexuality is simply taught to us would be a gross misunderstanding of how complex our own biology is. [/quote]
And pretty much every other animal on this planet.
[quote]elano wrote:
Professor X wrote:
There are cases of hermaphrodites who were raised as little girls (the mother insisted on having the genitals cut off) but who then rejected this later on to be boys. They dressed and acted like boys after they grew up and moved out.
For anyone to say that our sexuality is simply taught to us would be a gross misunderstanding of how complex our own biology is.
I completely agree. This is my Human sexual behavior class (psych). One day we were discussing hermaphrodites and transsexuals. Our professor was telling us how men/women who feel that they are the wrong gender trapped in the opposite’s body will take hormone therapy (steroids) to change their sex characteristics.
I asked her if this was legal and she said “yes, it is completely legal”. I then asked her “So do you think that its weird that people can take testosterone to change their genitalia, but its illegal to take testosterone for atheltic performance?”
She replied saying that “The people who take steroids to bulk up are cheaters”.
[/quote]
Sad. You would think at a college level there would be some sightly more intelligent responses to that question.
[quote]elano wrote:
In class we have been discussing gender roles. They are basically teaching us that being “masculine” or “feminine” is just a role you have been taught to play by society. Comments and opinions?[/quote]
The belief that “gender roles” are mere social constructions rather than the manifestation of innate biological differences between the sexes is the crowning jewel of liberal feminist bullshit. It is an absolutely dangerous belief that has already caused a degree of damage to society that will never be repaired during our lifetime. It is nothing short of an intellectual crime that university professors receive public tax dollars to promote this insanity.
cheaters at what exactly ? that assumes that everyone that gets into lifting is in competition as well
Ah-ha!
Funny you should bring this up, as an offshoot to this very question is something that I was just discussing with someone recently.
There’s no question in my mind, by the way, that much of gender roles are biological – hormones play a part, as does the way our brains are wired. It’s been shown that male and female brains work differently in some respects in the way they analyze and respond to various things.
My recent conversation had to do with discussing why many (no, not ALL, I know, I’ve got to qualify this) gay man have that “gay accent,” they SOUND effeminate, and even walk, stand and move with more effeminate mannerisms (the whole bent wrist and sashaying thing). YES, I know, I’m generalizing here and YES, I know, there are also some straight men who act like that. But not many, whereas a good proportion of gay men DO sound gay and move/walk “gay.”
Is this genetic? It’s probably not due to anything hormonal, as it’s been shown that gay men do not tend to have different testosterone levels from straight men on the average.
I think it’s purely cultural, something that they’re kind of raised to take on as a gay male in our society. If you removed the societal influence and they grew up in some other society without seeing how other gay men act, my guess is that they would act and come across exactly the same as straight men do, though they would still be gay. They just wouldn’t have the effeminate mannerisms.
Perhaps they take on those mannerisms partly to “find each other,” since gay people are such a small segment of society as it is, so when they’re in the presence of each other and hear each other talking like that (or moving/acting like that) the other guy will know that they’re of like mind. So maybe it’s kind of a common sense “mating” mechanism, if you will.
Thoughts?
I believe that it’s neither purely one or the other - it’s a combination of socially constructed roles and biology that makes men into men, and women into women.
Regarding the above post, I think the “gay accent” and gay way of moving & mannerisms, are just men imitating female speech and movement patterns.
You listen to way girls talk and it’s a lot more melodious, breathy, drawn out with emotional inflection and softness, while when men speak, it’s grunty, growly, quicker and sharper. For example, “Heeeeeyyyy how are youuuuu” versus “Hey!”
What’s interesting is these patterns - to what degree are they socially constructed, and to what degree are the female ways of talking and moving biological?
The hip swing is obviously biological, but what else? Would the female speech patterns be innate?
It doesn’t matter what toys boys play with. Then they grow up they have the ability to kill with their hands.
Society has only removed the need for us to kill. Yet we still do it. That ability never leaves, it only goes dormant.
Fighting, lets not even go there. It’s all about aggression in every form of the word.
[quote]streamline wrote:
It doesn’t matter what toys boys play with. Then they grow up they have the ability to kill with their hands.
Society has only removed the need for us to kill. Yet we still do it. That ability never leaves, it only goes dormant.
Fighting, lets not even go there. It’s all about aggression in every form of the word.[/quote]
There is always a need to kill, but in order to maintain stability for society as a whole it has been banned.
Here is an interesting article about revenge:
Bullshit! Hummm actually not that simple…it’s very difficult clearly distinguishing between what comes from “nature”, and what comes from “nurture” especially without ideological, political…biases
[quote]Damici wrote:
I think it’s purely cultural, something that they’re kind of raised to take on as a gay male in our society. If you removed the societal influence and they grew up in some other society without seeing how other gay men act, my guess is that they would act and come across exactly the same as straight men do, though they would still be gay. They just wouldn’t have the effeminate mannerisms.
Thoughts?[/quote]
I’d have a different opinion on that. In the South Pacific islands, such as Tonga, the homosexuals are referred to as “fakaleiti”, and their culture is different to Western culture. Yet, they still move in an effeminate way.
I think it’s universal for gay men to imitate women, in order to express their sexual orientation.
Universal, maybe. But what’s the CAUSE of it? Is it genetically programmed or do they learn it from the effeminate gay males in their own culture (in this case Tonga)?
[quote]JohnnyBlaze wrote:
Damici wrote:
I think it’s purely cultural, something that they’re kind of raised to take on as a gay male in our society. If you removed the societal influence and they grew up in some other society without seeing how other gay men act, my guess is that they would act and come across exactly the same as straight men do, though they would still be gay. They just wouldn’t have the effeminate mannerisms.
Thoughts?
I’d have a different opinion on that. In the South Pacific islands, such as Tonga, the homosexuals are referred to as “fakaleiti”, and their culture is different to Western culture. Yet, they still move in an effeminate way.
I think it’s universal for gay men to imitate women, in order to express their sexual orientation.[/quote]
When I was a toddler my mom intentionally tried to raise me without pushing gender roles. So she’d let me choose masculine toys or feminine ones.
One day her friends daughter was at my house and we were playing in a seperate room.
As the parents were talking the little girl came running and crying out of the room we were playing in.
When they investigated the reason they found that I had ripped all of the limbs off the baby doll she was playing with and was trying to figure out how the sockets worked.
Needless to say I always chose to play with my trucks, guns or army soldiers over dolls.
Seems more nature than nurture to me.
[quote]LiftSmart wrote:
When I was a toddler my mom intentionally tried to raise me without pushing gender roles. So she’d let me choose masculine toys or feminine ones.
One day her friends daughter was at my house and we were playing in a seperate room.
As the parents were talking the little girl came running and crying out of the room we were playing in.
When they investigated the reason they found that I had ripped all of the limbs off the baby doll she was playing with and was trying to figure out how the sockets worked.
Needless to say I always chose to play with my trucks, guns or army soldiers over dolls.
Seems more nature than nurture to me.[/quote]
Agreed. You give the average boy a Barbie doll and they are NOT going to play “tea party”. They are going to either dissect the bitch or, my personal favorite, freeze the ho in a tall glass of water and stick her back in your sister’s bedroom just to see the reaction.
Anyone who thinks this is all “society’s fault” has never been around kids since they’ve been one.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
LiftSmart wrote:
When I was a toddler my mom intentionally tried to raise me without pushing gender roles. So she’d let me choose masculine toys or feminine ones.
One day her friends daughter was at my house and we were playing in a seperate room.
As the parents were talking the little girl came running and crying out of the room we were playing in.
When they investigated the reason they found that I had ripped all of the limbs off the baby doll she was playing with and was trying to figure out how the sockets worked.
Needless to say I always chose to play with my trucks, guns or army soldiers over dolls.
Seems more nature than nurture to me.
Agreed. You give the average boy a Barbie doll and they are NOT going to play “tea party”. They are going to either dissect the bitch or, my personal favorite, freeze the ho in a tall glass of water and stick her back in your sister’s bedroom just to see the reaction.
Anyone who thinks this is all “society’s fault” has never been around kids since they’ve been one.[/quote]
I just took all of Barbie’s clothes off to see what was going on under there.
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
I just took all of Barbie’s clothes off to see what was going on under there.
[/quote]
…and sadly, this left me very confused about the female anatomy until I was old enough for the library.
“Why is that little boy looking at vaginas in the Encyclopedia Brittanica?”
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Agreed. You give the average boy a Barbie doll and they are NOT going to play “tea party”. They are going to either dissect the bitch or, my personal favorite, freeze the ho in a tall glass of water and stick her back in your sister’s bedroom just to see the reaction.
Anyone who thinks this is all “society’s fault” has never been around kids since they’ve been one.[/quote]
You don’t really think girls play tea party with Barbie do you? 
(Unless you mean lesbian orgy tea party)
[quote]debraD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Agreed. You give the average boy a Barbie doll and they are NOT going to play “tea party”. They are going to either dissect the bitch or, my personal favorite, freeze the ho in a tall glass of water and stick her back in your sister’s bedroom just to see the reaction.
Anyone who thinks this is all “society’s fault” has never been around kids since they’ve been one.
You don’t really think girls play tea party with Barbie do you? (Unless you mean lesbian orgy tea party)
[/quote]
I never figured out (or really cared that much) what the hell my sister was doing in her room. All I heard were her own sound effects and the overuse of Rainbow Bright stuffed characters being thrown all over the place. From the sounds of it, it was something along the lines of some Princess scenario with tons of shooting stars, comets and explosions before she married some prince in a sports car who just happened to be my Snake Eyes action figure.
I miss my fucking Snake Eyes action figure.
i think it is biological. the sociological aspect may influence the expression of masculinity as far as levels of perceived aggressive behaviors depending what societal construct people are from (matriarchal, patriarchal). often times females may start out aggressive as children and have it trained out of them and they may become passive aggressive as adults as it is a more acceptable “feminine” behavior.
they may find more acceptable outlets for those perceived “masculine” traits later in life. as for the question of gay mannerisms, i have seen many gay children that could not help but resist societal pressure to act straight when young and eventually start freely acting gay once they felt old enough to do so. that being said those gay men still have a male mind and hormones and those gay women still have a female mind and hormones. it may seem odd but the chromosome make up and hormones do count. just sayin’.
[quote]Damici wrote:
Ah-ha!
Funny you should bring this up, as an offshoot to this very question is something that I was just discussing with someone recently.
There’s no question in my mind, by the way, that much of gender roles are biological – hormones play a part, as does the way our brains are wired. It’s been shown that male and female brains work differently in some respects in the way they analyze and respond to various things.
My recent conversation had to do with discussing why many (no, not ALL, I know, I’ve got to qualify this) gay man have that “gay accent,” they SOUND effeminate, and even walk, stand and move with more effeminate mannerisms (the whole bent wrist and sashaying thing). YES, I know, I’m generalizing here and YES, I know, there are also some straight men who act like that. But not many, whereas a good proportion of gay men DO sound gay and move/walk “gay.”
Is this genetic? It’s probably not due to anything hormonal, as it’s been shown that gay men do not tend to have different testosterone levels from straight men on the average.
I think it’s purely cultural, something that they’re kind of raised to take on as a gay male in our society. If you removed the societal influence and they grew up in some other society without seeing how other gay men act, my guess is that they would act and come across exactly the same as straight men do, though they would still be gay. They just wouldn’t have the effeminate mannerisms.
Perhaps they take on those mannerisms partly to “find each other,” since gay people are such a small segment of society as it is, so when they’re in the presence of each other and hear each other talking like that (or moving/acting like that) the other guy will know that they’re of like mind. So maybe it’s kind of a common sense “mating” mechanism, if you will.
Thoughts?[/quote]
I have gay friends that are hyper masculine. Beards, lift weights, deep voices, climb mountains. Damn cool guys, they just like cock. They don’t get along too well with the effeminate types.
I also know straight guys that have the gay lisp and mannerisms. They are low test types.