Martial Arts are BS

[quote]JD430 wrote:
-Spar and roll a lot. When I say spar, I mean with gloves and a headgear on where you actually get hit.

-Condition yourself to the point where you are an anaerobic machine.

-Know how to separate real world MA from more “artistic/cultural” pursuits. If you need help doing this, MMA should be your guide.

-Hit things(heavy bags, pads).

-You should spend a lot of time training wrestling, Judo or aggressive, top-game BJJ(there is a difference).

-Find a Filipino MA guy and learn something about knives.

-Learn to shoot and carry a gun if you can. If not, keep one(or many) in your home. Learn some CQB tactics too…different than just learning to shoot.

I think that covers it… [/quote]

Great post, but don’t forget that someday you will get old. Train hard for as long as possible then modify your training and stay ready to protect yourself if needed. Some weapons training will keep you relevent into old age.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
-Spar and roll a lot. When I say spar, I mean with gloves and a headgear on where you actually get hit.

-Condition yourself to the point where you are an anaerobic machine.

-Know how to separate real world MA from more “artistic/cultural” pursuits. If you need help doing this, MMA should be your guide.

-Hit things(heavy bags, pads).

-You should spend a lot of time training wrestling, Judo or aggressive, top-game BJJ(there is a difference).

-Find a Filipino MA guy and learn something about knives.

-Learn to shoot and carry a gun if you can. If not, keep one(or many) in your home. Learn some CQB tactics too…different than just learning to shoot.

I think that covers it… [/quote]

I agree with you on nearly every point- except on the “use MMA as a guide.” You should not use MMA as a guide at all, because many things that work in the Octagon don’t work in the street, and vice versa.

Although I strongly dislike the way that TMA instructors have destroyed the arts they teach, it doesn’t mean that the art doesn’t have usable parts and pieces worth learning. You’ve just got to find the right instructor that teaches awareness, self defense, etc. BESIDES just how to not get a boxer’s fracture when you hit somebody.

See, I look at it like this- a good self defense instructor is someone like this… but nothing he teaches is really going to be effective in MMA… or really has anything to do with sports at all.

[quote]Josann wrote:
My take on Penn and Teller is that for the most part they are accurate. And, I have 20 plus years in traditional uechi ryu karate. Uechi and a number of schools believe chi is bs. Hard work and thousands of reps on basics are what work, there is nothing mystical about hard work. I do think that the flippant attitude toward the teacher hitting the student is unfair. This is similar to a uechi practice called kotikitae, or body conditioning. Some call this “Iron Shirt” training. The premise is that you must be able to take a hit if you are going to fight. Would they be laughing at a boxer that is being hit in the gut with a medicine ball? Would they laugh at shadowboxing? I don’t think so. As one of Mike Tyson’s managers once said, “Everyone has a plan until they get hit.”

Having said all that, I do feel that karate as a whole has screwed itself with the general public as a watered down shell of what it was meant to be. Kids classes and 12 year old black belts have ruined that, along with sport karate which mimics true self defense and fighting.Karate has become similar to Little League, something kids do from ages 5-12 before they can do contact sports.In the uechi system one cannot test for a blackbelt until age 18 regardless of how long they have studied.

True karate training is tedious and often pretty brutal. This is why good systems don’t fare so well as most do not have the patience for real training and many like to believe that there is some quick fix, chi, ki or whatever that’s going to save their ass in a self defense situation. It don’t exist. I have a 5th degree black belt and crosstrain with people of other styles at times. One of my better experiences is training with my 21 year old son who has a background in muay tai and BJJ. I am 56 and I can tell you that all the “chi” in the world ain’t gonna stop a good double leg take down. Karate, when trained properly, is a legit way to defend yourself, stay active and healthy, and supplement a well rounded training regimen. It is meant to be a lifetime study and most, especially Americans have turned it into a Tai Bo, P90X joke. Too bad as the true value of karate as a way of life got lost along the way.[/quote]

I agree with every part of this post.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]JD430 wrote:
-Spar and roll a lot. When I say spar, I mean with gloves and a headgear on where you actually get hit.

-Condition yourself to the point where you are an anaerobic machine.

-Know how to separate real world MA from more “artistic/cultural” pursuits. If you need help doing this, MMA should be your guide.

-Hit things(heavy bags, pads).

-You should spend a lot of time training wrestling, Judo or aggressive, top-game BJJ(there is a difference).

-Find a Filipino MA guy and learn something about knives.

-Learn to shoot and carry a gun if you can. If not, keep one(or many) in your home. Learn some CQB tactics too…different than just learning to shoot.

I think that covers it… [/quote]

I agree with you on nearly every point- except on the “use MMA as a guide.” You should not use MMA as a guide at all, because many things that work in the Octagon don’t work in the street, and vice versa.

Although I strongly dislike the way that TMA instructors have destroyed the arts they teach, it doesn’t mean that the art doesn’t have usable parts and pieces worth learning. You’ve just got to find the right instructor that teaches awareness, self defense, etc. BESIDES just how to not get a boxer’s fracture when you hit somebody.

See, I look at it like this- a good self defense instructor is someone like this… but nothing he teaches is really going to be effective in MMA… or really has anything to do with sports at all.

I used to think that way too. I have been at this a long time. Every “self-defence” instructor I ever came across was a hack who couldnt really fight. I also have had the added benefit of being around law enforcement “defensive tactics” guys. Some of them are the worst. Maybe it has just been my experience. I don’t know.

The only people I have ever trained with that could really handle themselves trained like MMA fighters(actually, were or are MMA fighters). There is no other way to acquire the power, reflexes, timing and reactions to really scrap with a human being than training in competitive arts like boxing, muay thai, BJJ or wrestling. Those endeavors also forge a high level of specific combative conditioning and breed mentally tough people. I’m not a guy who pisses on TMA’s either. They just need to be done a certain way and with a certain attitude if there is going to be anything useful on the street or battlefield to be learned from them. They are not typically done that way in the US very often.

Do you have to modify some of the sportive aspects of any art? Absolutely. That is why I advised studying the blade and firearms too.

I’ll take a stud D1 wrestler on my side any day of the week over a self defense guru if it comes down to a fight. However, it is fair to mention that “survival” in a hostile environment, be it a dangerous neighborhood or whatever, has relatively little to do with any martial arts and so much more to do with behavioral and psychological concepts.

[quote]Josann wrote:

[quote]JD430 wrote:
-Spar and roll a lot. When I say spar, I mean with gloves and a headgear on where you actually get hit.

-Condition yourself to the point where you are an anaerobic machine.

-Know how to separate real world MA from more “artistic/cultural” pursuits. If you need help doing this, MMA should be your guide.

-Hit things(heavy bags, pads).

-You should spend a lot of time training wrestling, Judo or aggressive, top-game BJJ(there is a difference).

-Find a Filipino MA guy and learn something about knives.

-Learn to shoot and carry a gun if you can. If not, keep one(or many) in your home. Learn some CQB tactics too…different than just learning to shoot.

I think that covers it… [/quote]

Great post, but don’t forget that someday you will get old. Train hard for as long as possible then modify your training and stay ready to protect yourself if needed. Some weapons training will keep you relevent into old age.[/quote]

No question. I do believe that you can be a pretty effective fighter for most of your life if you live right. I know plenty of guys in their 50’s that will smash 99 percent of the population. I have even known a select few in their 60’s that the same could be said about. The Filipino’s have a saying “Walk as a warrior for all of your days”.

and I don’t ever plan to stop pulling triggers…

[quote]Josann wrote:

[quote]punchedbear wrote:
Karate and most Martial Arts in this country got screwed by the Karate Kid. After that movie the McDojo scene exploded with parents wanting their kids to learning to defend themselves but never ever getting hit or being in live sparing. It just doesnt work that way but it doesnt stop BS instructors from selling belts and belt tests off like it was nothing.

[/quote]

Great observation, agree 100%. [/quote]

I’ve often wondered why martial arts which teaches humility, respect, dicipline etc always has the biggest, most gaudiest, obnoxious trophys around, here in North America anyways. Five foot tall trophys teach you to be humble? I Apologize if this has been pointed out previously. I lurk here from time to time and seeing as I don’t train Goju Karate anymore I feel I should just stfu and read. The trophy thing has always bugged me though.

I love how they question the motives of the people taking the classes - most of the kids in school who did karate were so keen to show it off they turned into bullies without having to lay a finger on anybody.

I was lucky enough to have a great instructor in Wing Chun kung fu when I was in my teens- no bullshit, no belts or trophies, just live sparring, drills and common sense stuff. These martial arts threads bring the memories flooding back. Even though I did Wing Chun for years, I wouldn’t try and do most of that stuff in a fight- it just instills basic self defence principles in you, like keeping your hands up, using hands and forearms to parry blows etc.

[quote]bond james bond wrote:

[quote]Josann wrote:

[quote]punchedbear wrote:
Karate and most Martial Arts in this country got screwed by the Karate Kid. After that movie the McDojo scene exploded with parents wanting their kids to learning to defend themselves but never ever getting hit or being in live sparing. It just doesnt work that way but it doesnt stop BS instructors from selling belts and belt tests off like it was nothing.

[/quote]

Great observation, agree 100%. [/quote]

I’ve often wondered why martial arts which teaches humility, respect, dicipline etc always has the biggest, most gaudiest, obnoxious trophys around, here in North America anyways. Five foot tall trophys teach you to be humble? I Apologize if this has been pointed out previously. I lurk here from time to time and seeing as I don’t train Goju Karate anymore I feel I should just stfu and read. The trophy thing has always bugged me though.

[/quote]

It’s strange, I remember when I was doing karate, ever karate-ka I ever met treated his trophies like pieces of gold and paraded them around and made sure people knew about them.

Now in Boxing, the vast majority of fighters chuck the shitty little trophies they get in the bin, unless it’s for an actual title or golden gloves.

To be fair though, the boxing trophies are cheap pieces of crap.

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]bond james bond wrote:

[quote]Josann wrote:

[quote]punchedbear wrote:
Karate and most Martial Arts in this country got screwed by the Karate Kid. After that movie the McDojo scene exploded with parents wanting their kids to learning to defend themselves but never ever getting hit or being in live sparing. It just doesnt work that way but it doesnt stop BS instructors from selling belts and belt tests off like it was nothing.

[/quote]

Great observation, agree 100%. [/quote]

I’ve often wondered why martial arts which teaches humility, respect, dicipline etc always has the biggest, most gaudiest, obnoxious trophys around, here in North America anyways. Five foot tall trophys teach you to be humble? I Apologize if this has been pointed out previously. I lurk here from time to time and seeing as I don’t train Goju Karate anymore I feel I should just stfu and read. The trophy thing has always bugged me though.

[/quote]

It’s strange, I remember when I was doing karate, ever karate-ka I ever met treated his trophies like pieces of gold and paraded them around and made sure people knew about them.

Now in Boxing, the vast majority of fighters chuck the shitty little trophies they get in the bin, unless it’s for an actual title or golden gloves.

To be fair though, the boxing trophies are cheap pieces of crap.[/quote]

Trophies were really bad in the 1990s, I think they’re getting better over the years though. AIBA however gives really nice awards.

I never see the need for a five foot tall trophy…but hey if your in the amateurs and your winning a fight…keep that little medal taht goes around your neck…you know everyone started out that way. every victory counts. this builds you up.

[quote]goldengloves wrote:

Trophies were really bad in the 1990s, I think they’re getting better over the years though. AIBA however gives really nice awards.
[/quote]

haha they should! That’s some shit to accomplish. Winning in a karate points tournament like Cobra Kai… then getting a six foot trophy worth 35 bucks that goes in the front window of your mcdojo… not so much.

By the way, getting back to the original point of this thread, it irritates the shit out of me that with all the martial arts classes and bullshit I’ve taken, nobody ever told me what a pincer move was. I knew what it was in the military sense, but didn’t know that criminals knew about it also.

I didn’t know that when entering a possibly dangerous place, to park facing the road, far from the club, and to keep one key out of pocket so I wasn’t fumbling for them.

I had no idea how to ditch and dodge guys (well, except for what I did myself, but never really thought about) or what the color coded thing for awareness levels meant.

All of this shit, I had to learn from books or from fucking up on my own- but with all the money I paid for “Self defense”- not a fuckin word.

THAT’S frustrating.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way, getting back to the original point of this thread, it irritates the shit out of me that with all the martial arts classes and bullshit I’ve taken, nobody ever told me what a pincer move was. I knew what it was in the military sense, but didn’t know that criminals knew about it also.

I didn’t know that when entering a possibly dangerous place, to park facing the road, far from the club, and to keep one key out of pocket so I wasn’t fumbling for them.

I had no idea how to ditch and dodge guys (well, except for what I did myself, but never really thought about) or what the color coded thing for awareness levels meant.

All of this shit, I had to learn from books or from fucking up on my own- but with all the money I paid for “Self defense”- not a fuckin word.

THAT’S frustrating.[/quote]

care to share?

Pincer move? I know the military sense also but Im having trouble thinking of the most likely scenario to expect that kind of thing in an urban environment for example.

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way, getting back to the original point of this thread, it irritates the shit out of me that with all the martial arts classes and bullshit I’ve taken, nobody ever told me what a pincer move was. I knew what it was in the military sense, but didn’t know that criminals knew about it also.

I didn’t know that when entering a possibly dangerous place, to park facing the road, far from the club, and to keep one key out of pocket so I wasn’t fumbling for them.

I had no idea how to ditch and dodge guys (well, except for what I did myself, but never really thought about) or what the color coded thing for awareness levels meant.

All of this shit, I had to learn from books or from fucking up on my own- but with all the money I paid for “Self defense”- not a fuckin word.

THAT’S frustrating.[/quote]

care to share?

Pincer move? I know the military sense also but Im having trouble thinking of the most likely scenario to expect that kind of thing in an urban environment for example.
[/quote]

Guy and his friends see you with a roll of money in a bar. Guy either waits for you to leave or starts something he expects you to take to the parking lot. His buddies are outside, just around the corner, and waiting for you to come out the door not looking for them. On the way out, thug one walks up to you and engages in an argument of some sort while his buddies who were standing around move towards one side or behind you. The one in your face is loud, aggressive, probably acting drunk and either chest bumping you or doing the arms-out drunk guy challenge. What he’s really doing is distracting you from the fact that his friend with the knife moving behind you is getting way too close. By the time you notice the knife, it’s either pressed against you (if they just want the money) or in your ribs (if they also want you hurt/dead). You’ve got nowhere to go. Even if you had friends with you, you’re back to back with limited options and they have the initiative because they decide when things got violent, so you go down before your friends even know a real fight just started. Because they picked the target, you’re probably outnumbered and they at least think they can take your money and run while you deal with a sucking chest wound.

Common? No. But are there groups of young thugs who will rob you at knifepoint outside a bar, and do they all fight dirty? You bet your ass.

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

Guy and his friends see you with a roll of money in a bar. Guy either waits for you to leave or starts something he expects you to take to the parking lot. His buddies are outside, just around the corner, and waiting for you to come out the door not looking for them. On the way out, thug one walks up to you and engages in an argument of some sort while his buddies who were standing around move towards one side or behind you. The one in your face is loud, aggressive, probably acting drunk and either chest bumping you or doing the arms-out drunk guy challenge. What he’s really doing is distracting you from the fact that his friend with the knife moving behind you is getting way too close. By the time you notice the knife, it’s either pressed against you (if they just want the money) or in your ribs (if they also want you hurt/dead). You’ve got nowhere to go. Even if you had friends with you, you’re back to back with limited options and they have the initiative because they decide when things got violent, so you go down before your friends even know a real fight just started. Because they picked the target, you’re probably outnumbered and they at least think they can take your money and run while you deal with a sucking chest wound.

Common? No. But are there groups of young thugs who will rob you at knifepoint outside a bar, and do they all fight dirty? You bet your ass.[/quote]

Although you’re right in what you’re talking about- it doesn’t have to be that complicated or blatant.

It could be something as simple as a guy walking up to you outside and asking for change/a light/ a cigarette, while his buddy comes around the side or from behind you. Doesn’t have to be loud, blatant, or even a group’s worth of guys.

Happened to me in a barfight… we were all distracted out in the street, looking at the dude who was jawing, and one of his boys crossed the street literally two hundred feet down and blindsided my friend, then took off.

We were so busy looking at the distraction, not one of us noticed him. When he hit my friend, he was less than three yards from me, and I didn’t realize it happened till it was over.

You can bet that was the last time I ever didn’t watch the flanks.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way, getting back to the original point of this thread, it irritates the shit out of me that with all the martial arts classes and bullshit I’ve taken, nobody ever told me what a pincer move was. I knew what it was in the military sense, but didn’t know that criminals knew about it also.

I didn’t know that when entering a possibly dangerous place, to park facing the road, far from the club, and to keep one key out of pocket so I wasn’t fumbling for them.

I had no idea how to ditch and dodge guys (well, except for what I did myself, but never really thought about) or what the color coded thing for awareness levels meant.

All of this shit, I had to learn from books or from fucking up on my own- but with all the money I paid for “Self defense”- not a fuckin word.

THAT’S frustrating.[/quote]

are there any books you can recommend on this subject?

[quote]kain wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way, getting back to the original point of this thread, it irritates the shit out of me that with all the martial arts classes and bullshit I’ve taken, nobody ever told me what a pincer move was. I knew what it was in the military sense, but didn’t know that criminals knew about it also.

I didn’t know that when entering a possibly dangerous place, to park facing the road, far from the club, and to keep one key out of pocket so I wasn’t fumbling for them.

I had no idea how to ditch and dodge guys (well, except for what I did myself, but never really thought about) or what the color coded thing for awareness levels meant.

All of this shit, I had to learn from books or from fucking up on my own- but with all the money I paid for “Self defense”- not a fuckin word.

THAT’S frustrating.[/quote]

are there any books you can recommend on this subject?[/quote]

seriously, i want to jack some fools for their grip

This is tough.

I train at a club with Both San Shou kickboxing and Traditional Kung fu.

People always think theyre tougher then they really are. If you haven’t trained and stepped in the ring. Ill bet you’re one of them.

The TMA Kung fu classes have 20-40 people per class. Do you guys know how many go to our class? 4… maybe 6 on a good day.

i’ve seen guys literally quit after they puked in the first class and then cross back over to the TMA side. What people see is the romance of fighting. The see the fights when people are at their best. They dont see how its like when your training hurt, and your sore. Your constantly working on your cardio and running when you got welts on the side of your legs from leg kicks. Telling people at the office you bruised your knuckles from working on your car so they dont think your crazy (trust me… fighting isnt an accepted sport)

Being beat tired and gassing and having your coach kick and punch you while screaming at you breaks more people then you’d honestly believe. But these things need to be done to be real fighters. You need exceptional conditioning and real world training in order to be a real fighter.

My original TKD club was very old school. My Master’s goal was to produce fighters. FIGHTERS!!! he pulled a side a small group of us kids, around 10-12 and started to prep us. He was hoping he’d produce world champions. He’d walk around with a staff and would make us kick for an hour and a half straight on pads. Weakness, lack of power or technique were all punished. Then stay late and spar for an hour, often we’d spar 4-6 rounds. Thats 3 hours straight of warm-up, training and fighting.

The end product was a batch of kids who were tough as nails. The ones who didnt burn out competed at a international/national level. The rest were bad asses.

Now when i go in to visit my old TKD school, its like a McDojo. Why? Parents complain, people order Spike TV and think its like UFC but dont realize they dont hit as hard as they think or take anything near the damage they think. They all either puke and quit, or they get hurt, or hurt and try to sue the schools. I’ve heard boxing gyms have been struggling too. Some i’ve heard spend 80% of their resources in boxercise. Because thats what pays the bills.

In order for schools to stay open, they have to have martial arts light. They cant sell the real training, so they sell the light version.

p.s. ive trained with former boxing champs, top world champs, every single good instructor said the same thing, when asked what was the best self defence move, “Running.” :wink:

[quote]kain wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way, getting back to the original point of this thread, it irritates the shit out of me that with all the martial arts classes and bullshit I’ve taken, nobody ever told me what a pincer move was. I knew what it was in the military sense, but didn’t know that criminals knew about it also.

I didn’t know that when entering a possibly dangerous place, to park facing the road, far from the club, and to keep one key out of pocket so I wasn’t fumbling for them.

I had no idea how to ditch and dodge guys (well, except for what I did myself, but never really thought about) or what the color coded thing for awareness levels meant.

All of this shit, I had to learn from books or from fucking up on my own- but with all the money I paid for “Self defense”- not a fuckin word.

THAT’S frustrating.[/quote]

are there any books you can recommend on this subject?[/quote]

Yea man. One is called “Street E & E” and it’s by Marc Macyoung. So many great tips and awesome stuff in here that you might need one day.

You can download it for free at http://www.scribd.com.

Another one is called the “Little Black Book of Violence.” Great book, everyone on this board should own it.

Yet another good one, kind of along the same lines, is “Surviving Armed Assaults” by Lawrence Kane. It’s for anyone- not just martial artists. Very readable.

And then, honestly, anything and everything by Macyoung. He’s a very controversial guy I guess you could say, but you’ll pick up all kinds of shit from all of his books.

[quote]lucidfuel wrote:
This is tough.

I train at a club with Both San Shou kickboxing and Traditional Kung fu.

People always think theyre tougher then they really are. If you haven’t trained and stepped in the ring. Ill bet you’re one of them.

The TMA Kung fu classes have 20-40 people per class. Do you guys know how many go to our class? 4… maybe 6 on a good day.

i’ve seen guys literally quit after they puked in the first class and then cross back over to the TMA side. What people see is the romance of fighting. The see the fights when people are at their best. They dont see how its like when your training hurt, and your sore. Your constantly working on your cardio and running when you got welts on the side of your legs from leg kicks. Telling people at the office you bruised your knuckles from working on your car so they dont think your crazy (trust me… fighting isnt an accepted sport)

Being beat tired and gassing and having your coach kick and punch you while screaming at you breaks more people then you’d honestly believe. But these things need to be done to be real fighters. You need exceptional conditioning and real world training in order to be a real fighter.

My original TKD club was very old school. My Master’s goal was to produce fighters. FIGHTERS!!! he pulled a side a small group of us kids, around 10-12 and started to prep us. He was hoping he’d produce world champions. He’d walk around with a staff and would make us kick for an hour and a half straight on pads. Weakness, lack of power or technique were all punished. Then stay late and spar for an hour, often we’d spar 4-6 rounds. Thats 3 hours straight of training and fighting.

The end product was a batch of kids who were tough as nails. The ones who didnt burn out competed at a international/national level. The rest were bad asses.

Now when i go in to visit my old TKD school, its like a McDojo. Why? Parents complain, people order Spike TV and think its like UFC but dont realize they dont hit as hard as they think or take anything near the damage they think. They all either puke and quit, or they get hurt, or hurt and try to sue the schools. I’ve heard boxing gyms have been struggling too. Some i’ve heard spend 80% of their resources in boxercise. Because thats what pays the bills.

In order for schools to stay open, they have to have martial arts light. They cant sell the real training, so they sell the light version.

p.s. ive trained with former boxing champs, top world champs, every single good instructor said the same thing, when asked what was the best self defence move, “Running.” :wink: [/quote]

Lot of truth here. If you don’t have a program to teach 6 year olds how to punch balloons, your school is probably going to go under.