T Nation

Martial Arts Academy Costs?

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Holy crap! Just rechecked Irvin’s school site and I must stand corrected. It says he charges $1,500 per hour for BJJ instruction, $1,800 per hour for BJJ + leg locks, and $2,500 per hour for “combat BJJ” (which I can only assume means BJJ for self defense)! Those are some exorbitant prices IMO, and it would be interesting to find out what say Greg Jackson, or Ricardo Liborio charge for the same services.[/quote]

Wait, there’s BJJ WITHOUT leg locks?!?!?! I never knew I was so cutting edge.

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Holy crap! Just rechecked Irvin’s school site and I must stand corrected. It says he charges $1,500 per hour for BJJ instruction, $1,800 per hour for BJJ + leg locks, and $2,500 per hour for “combat BJJ” (which I can only assume means BJJ for self defense)! Those are some exorbitant prices IMO, and it would be interesting to find out what say Greg Jackson, or Ricardo Liborio charge for the same services.[/quote]

Wait, there’s BJJ WITHOUT leg locks?!?!?! I never knew I was so cutting edge.[/quote]

WOW. That’s got to be some Sambo stuff getting thrown in free of charge for that kind of money.

The best instructors in H-town (Travis Tooke/Leonardo Xavier) charge $200 for a private. I am not sure about Draculino but going off his class rates, he can’t be much higher than that and I would stack those guys pedigree up against just about anybody.

I better get a new belt color if I am coming out with that much cash.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Holy crap! Just rechecked Irvin’s school site and I must stand corrected. It says he charges $1,500 per hour for BJJ instruction, $1,800 per hour for BJJ + leg locks, and $2,500 per hour for “combat BJJ” (which I can only assume means BJJ for self defense)! Those are some exorbitant prices IMO, and it would be interesting to find out what say Greg Jackson, or Ricardo Liborio charge for the same services.[/quote]

This might not be the proper thread to discuss Lloyd Irvin’s current issues as a BJJ school owner and as a person. It’s all over the mma forums however. We aren’t simply talking about shady business practices but rape and sexual abuse. It’s a mess. This is a blog by a prosecutor in Texas: http://georgetteoden.blogspot.com/ she explains a lot of what is going on.

About those prices: no one is paying them. It’s just to create a perception of value. It’s no different than when some product on TV says, “you get all this, a 200 dollar value, for only 29.99.”

Most of Lloyd’s team has cut ties with him. He didn’t really train many of the people he claims to have trained. He would bring in accomplished BJJ practitioners to teach them. Most of the best guys on his BJJ team, most of whom have left, were poached from other schools. Vera and Davis were accomplished wrestlers before they met Irvin. Irvin is an example of everything that can go wrong in martial arts. A good red flag is the fact he wants to be referred to as Master Lloyd. Technically, he isn’t ranked high enough in BJJ to have that title and the ones that do don’t have people calling them that.

Yes, I’m aware of the allegations against Irvin. Neither of us have all the facts and to the best of my knowledge he hasn’t actually been convicted of anything to this point, but I’m not trying to hold him up as the shining light of morality by any means, nor am I suggesting that anyone copy his business practices.

Again, I was simply using him as the extreme high end of the training fees schedule. If no one actually pays those fees then fine, they are manufactured and it might not be the best example after all.

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I’m curious what is the going rate for these places. Low level pro fighter instructors, nice facilities, and unlimited classes.

150$ a month? What is with the high flat fee and no variable rate based on class attendance? Is that a standard business model? [/quote]

I don’t know about “low level” but back in the day when it was big, Militech was charging $75 a month and you had pros teaching classes and evaluating students for the move up to the elite and black teams. Currently, I am near Saulo and Xande Ribero’s school in Ohio. Unlimited classes there (5 days a week of gi/no gi)runs about $90 a month, and that’s with 2 open weight Abu Dhabi champions as instructors. I would imagine the area’s economics would impact cost as well.

I’m all for charging for your product. In many cases, charging more makes consumers think they are receiving a superior product.

Riddle me this, how can a respected boxing gym charge 30-50$ a month and a martial arts academy charge 150$?

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I’m all for charging for your product. In many cases, charging more makes consumers think they are receiving a superior product.

Riddle me this, how can a respected boxing gym charge 30-50$ a month and a martial arts academy charge 150$?

[/quote]

As a couple of us have mentioned, it is likely that the boxing gym is receiving grants, and many of the coaches may be giving their time for free. Boxing gyms don’t tend to be run as businesses

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I’m all for charging for your product. In many cases, charging more makes consumers think they are receiving a superior product.

Riddle me this, how can a respected boxing gym charge 30-50$ a month and a martial arts academy charge 150$?

[/quote]

As a couple of us have mentioned, it is likely that the boxing gym is receiving grants, and many of the coaches may be giving their time for free. Boxing gyms don’t tend to be run as businesses[/quote]

I think you nailed it, love of the game vs profit.

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I’m all for charging for your product. In many cases, charging more makes consumers think they are receiving a superior product.

Riddle me this, how can a respected boxing gym charge 30-50$ a month and a martial arts academy charge 150$?

[/quote]

Boxing gyms don’t tend to be run as businesses[/quote]

That’s pretty accurate. I grew up in a boxing gym that my uncle ran. He boxed in the Marines and later got wounded in Korea where he almost lost one of his hands. He came back home and since he could not fight anymore, he opened a gym and became a trainer. Through the years, he became almost an icon in the state of Louisiana in boxing. Lots of kids from the streets found a home in the gym. Some turned troubled lives around. Others made careers and fought in the Olympics. A few became World Champs. The only thing he asked for was $20 bucks a month and I bet half didn’t even pay that. He could have charged much more but it was teaching that sweet science that made him get up every morning. However, if you didn’t give him 100%, you were gone.

Sorry for the digression but yeah, boxing guys are a little different than the MMA guys.

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I’m all for charging for your product. In many cases, charging more makes consumers think they are receiving a superior product.

Riddle me this, how can a respected boxing gym charge 30-50$ a month and a martial arts academy charge 150$?

[/quote]

As a couple of us have mentioned, it is likely that the boxing gym is receiving grants, and many of the coaches may be giving their time for free. Boxing gyms don’t tend to be run as businesses[/quote]

I think you nailed it, love of the game vs profit.
[/quote]
Not exactly. If an MA school is being run as a fulltime operation then the person running it has to eat. Very few MA school owners are getting rich. Do you think Freddie Roach donates his time?

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I’m all for charging for your product. In many cases, charging more makes consumers think they are receiving a superior product.

Riddle me this, how can a respected boxing gym charge 30-50$ a month and a martial arts academy charge 150$?

[/quote]

As a couple of us have mentioned, it is likely that the boxing gym is receiving grants, and many of the coaches may be giving their time for free. Boxing gyms don’t tend to be run as businesses[/quote]

I think you nailed it, love of the game vs profit.
[/quote]
Not exactly. If an MA school is being run as a fulltime operation then the person running it has to eat. Very few MA school owners are getting rich. Do you think Freddie Roach donates his time? [/quote]

You’re changing the parameters of the argument there mate. What a trainer who has trained 27+ world champions charges, and what my mate George or Tony or whoever can charge for their time, is a very different thing. The question was about gyms for low level pros, where the pricing structure often isn’t all that different than it is for the amateurs.

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I’m all for charging for your product. In many cases, charging more makes consumers think they are receiving a superior product.

Riddle me this, how can a respected boxing gym charge 30-50$ a month and a martial arts academy charge 150$?

[/quote]

As a couple of us have mentioned, it is likely that the boxing gym is receiving grants, and many of the coaches may be giving their time for free. Boxing gyms don’t tend to be run as businesses[/quote]

I think you nailed it, love of the game vs profit.
[/quote]
Not exactly. If an MA school is being run as a fulltime operation then the person running it has to eat. Very few MA school owners are getting rich. Do you think Freddie Roach donates his time? [/quote]

You’re changing the parameters of the argument there mate. What a trainer who has trained 27+ world champions charges, and what my mate George or Tony or whoever can charge for their time, is a very different thing. The question was about gyms for low level pros, where the pricing structure often isn’t all that different than it is for the amateurs.
[/quote]

Exactly.

The students in the academy I visited were soft, rich, and unskilled.

When I went through orientation at the place no one would tell me the upfront prices. That only happened after a light pad workout which kind of irritated me.

And that is where it stopped. I’m not joining this school period.

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I’m all for charging for your product. In many cases, charging more makes consumers think they are receiving a superior product.

Riddle me this, how can a respected boxing gym charge 30-50$ a month and a martial arts academy charge 150$?

[/quote]

As a couple of us have mentioned, it is likely that the boxing gym is receiving grants, and many of the coaches may be giving their time for free. Boxing gyms don’t tend to be run as businesses[/quote]

I think you nailed it, love of the game vs profit.
[/quote]
Not exactly. If an MA school is being run as a fulltime operation then the person running it has to eat. Very few MA school owners are getting rich. Do you think Freddie Roach donates his time? [/quote]

You’re changing the parameters of the argument there mate. What a trainer who has trained 27+ world champions charges, and what my mate George or Tony or whoever can charge for their time, is a very different thing. The question was about gyms for low level pros, where the pricing structure often isn’t all that different than it is for the amateurs.
[/quote]

Exactly.

The students in the academy I visited were soft, rich, and unskilled.

When I went through orientation at the place no one would tell me the upfront prices. That only happened after a light pad workout which kind of irritated me.

And that is where it stopped. I’m not joining this school period. [/quote]

Yeah, you’ve gotta trust your gut. No one is telling you to overpay for training that you don’t feel will get you where you want to be.

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I’m all for charging for your product. In many cases, charging more makes consumers think they are receiving a superior product.

Riddle me this, how can a respected boxing gym charge 30-50$ a month and a martial arts academy charge 150$?

[/quote]

As a couple of us have mentioned, it is likely that the boxing gym is receiving grants, and many of the coaches may be giving their time for free. Boxing gyms don’t tend to be run as businesses[/quote]

I think you nailed it, love of the game vs profit.
[/quote]
Not exactly. If an MA school is being run as a fulltime operation then the person running it has to eat. Very few MA school owners are getting rich. Do you think Freddie Roach donates his time? [/quote]

You’re changing the parameters of the argument there mate. What a trainer who has trained 27+ world champions charges, and what my mate George or Tony or whoever can charge for their time, is a very different thing. The question was about gyms for low level pros, where the pricing structure often isn’t all that different than it is for the amateurs.
[/quote]
Nothing is being changed as we are talking about MA academy pricing. Go to Renzo Gracie in Manhattan and see what is charged. Take into account that it is Manhattan and…you are going to have instructors who have won various titles in BJJ and MMA and who train, among others, GSP. In Brazil many schools will actually let poorer kids train for free provided they adhere to certain rules such as getting good grades. They call it a kind of scholarship program.

I’m just saying that pricing is based off of many factors. In the end though, the best place to train is the place where you feel comfortable and where you will be sure to consistently show up. Price should not be the main factor because you can spend less and then never show up because you just don’t like the vibe or something. Factor everything in such as quality of instruction, atmosphere, accessibility (if it’s a two hour drive how often will you go?), is it too competition driven or not enough, etc., then ask if the price is worth it.