[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]InflamedJoints wrote:
I would like to learn how to defend myself properly (after I recently got my ass kicked by some random person who I think was high on meth or something).
On the plus side, I have pretty good absolute strength from powerlifting, and even though my technique is poor, I can still punch pretty hard.
The negatives are many:
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My reflexes are a bit slow. I am willing to practice blocks a lot, but movement economy would be very important for me, as I am simply not fast enough to do any advanced blocking technique. Same thing goes for dodging.
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I have poor balance and footwork. Any training techniques that teaches this?
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I’m not flexible enough for some types of kicks, but I do have strong legs, which makes me think I have potential to learn howw to kick quite hard, as long as I don’t have to kick high.
In short, I am willing to practice a shitload. I have never done any martial arts before. I think movement economy is very important to me. I’m a kind of stocky and big person with good strength. I can also take a puch quite well (used to get beat up a lot, just never learned how to fight back. Kind of built up some resistance. Of course, this wouldn’t work against an MMA fighter, but I just need something for basic defense out in public).
The two types of martial arts I had in mind were Krav Maga and Karate. Possibly boxing. I heard Karate is supposed to be really good at using short movements and simple blocks. Any advice on this?[/quote]
If you go the Karate route the best one is Isshinryu. The reason why is because it’s the most evolved of all the karate systems. It originated in the 1950’s and was intended to be a system for masters to learn. It does away with a lot of the awkward movements of classical karate that may have been effective against armor clad 17th century Satsuma Klan samurai but are liability against modern opponents.
There is however one important caveat, not all teachers are equal. Some teachers came in from other systems and brought a lot of classical bullshit with them.
It sounds like you are big, brawny and can take a hit. With that going for you, your lack of balance could be quite a weapon. Possibly all you need to do is close, latch onto someone and they are going down. So BJJ might work well for you. [/quote]
I’m not knocking Isshinryu or disagreeing with it’s history, but I don’t really think it’s fair to say that it is more involved than say Kyokushin as, just like boxing or Muay Thai, Kyokushin practitioners regularly spar full contact (yes I know they have that weird thing about not being able to punch to the head) and thus the art is continually evolving. I realize that the ring is different from real life and perhaps Isshinryu’s skill set is better in that context (don’t have extensive experience with the system), but I still think that statement is a bit too biased.
Also, don’t know if people are aware or not but back in 1963 Mas Oyama (founder of Kyokushin) sent three of his fighters to Thailand to answer a challenge from Thailand’s best Muay Thai fighters. Oyama’s fighters won 2 out of the 3 fights (both by KO; the loss was also due to a KO). So, I think it’s fair to say that if we are going to consider Muay Thai a legitimate striking art, that of the Karate systems you would have to also consider Kyokushin legit.
Of course, you also have examples of Karate fighters being successful in other full contact arenas (GSP, Andy Hug, Bas Rutten, and Semmy Schilt were all Kyokushin practitioners, Machida is a Shotokan practitioner, Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace were both Shorin Ryu practitioners, etc…), but in many cases those fighters adapted the arts and eventually went beyond them.
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You need to read what I wrote again. I didn’t say Isshinryu is the most “involved” I said it’s most Evolved karate system. The reason why it’s an evolution because it does away with many, very old, standard practices, of classical karate. Some of these practices are so ubiquitous to classical karate that when people hear the word karate they automatically envision them.
From where I’m sitting, knowing what I know about karate history, some of what you wrote is absurd and also quite ironic. The lineages are very important to understanding any comparisons and you don’t know the lineages.
Kyokushin founder Mas Oyama learned Gichin Funakoshi’s Shotokan which is extremely classical. Funakoshi was a lesser student of Anko Itosu who was a great master teacher. Itosu was a top student of the great master Sokon “Bushi” Matsumura. Funakoshi was chosen to introduce karate to the Japanese because he was a teacher of Japanese etiquette, not because he was the best fighter or karate ka.
Here is what Kyokushin kata look like. This is so classical it is sickening. NOBODY FIGHTS LIKE THIS ANYMORE!
The primary stance throughout this kata is zenkutsu dachi. It’s a deep stance that doesn’t give good mobility. All punches are “corkscrew” and fully extended with the elbow locked out. The disadvantage of corkscrew punching is it’s slower, loses power and the full extension needs distance from your opponent to perform it properly. Locking the elbow means you can’t rapid fire or chain punch and if a grappler gets ahold of your arm while that elbow is locked you are fucked!
Next lineage lesson is for Shobayashi Shorin Ryu and Isshinryu. Starting again with Bushi Matsumora we move on to two of his most significant students Anko Itosu and Chotoku Kyan. Besides Funakoshi, Itosu taught the three greatest masters of the early twentieth century, Kyan, Choki Motobu and Chojun Miyagi. Their top student was Tatsuo Shimabuku who was the founder of Isshinryu.
Just after world war two Kyan died and his family wanted Tatsuo to take over as Shobayashi grand master. Since Tatsuo was already working on developing Isshinryu he declined. However Tatsuo had a younger brother Eizo who he had taught Shobayashi to, so Eizo became grand master.
Now here is where the irony comes in. The two best known practitioners of Shobayashi shorin ryu are Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace. Lewis studied directly under Eizo Shimabuku and Wallace studied under a student of Eizo Shimabuku. So both of those fighters who you think so much of, trace their lineage back through Tatsuo.
Here is another bit of history for you. In 1962 when Oyama promoted the first full contact karate tournament in North America it was won by the Isshinryu team.
The only thing that the Kyokushin system has going for it is they beat the hell out of each other. But the Isshinryu people do it too. The main difference is we don’t wail away at the body with the head being off limits. In the schools I train in the rule is if someone does that we have permission to clean their clock for them. It will teach them to guard their head.
We also hit to the groin which sets us apart from a lot of arts. That’s how Wallace lost a testicle. Another Isshinryu principle is we don’t pass up a target of opportunity. Or in other words we don’t pass on a close target to go after a farther targhet. That’s why most of our kicks and all knees go up our centerline. If you are close you either get kneed in the groin or move back to avoid it giving us room for something else. In Muay thai their knees angle up from the outside to avoid the groin and hit up in the ribs.
Another principle is we don’t use wind ups. That way we don’t telegraph technique. This also allows us to operate our limbs independently. If you watch Muay Thai fighters they can’t kick without their hands flailing around. It’s a real limitation.
Last but not least I don’t mean these critiques to denigrate Kyokushin or Muay Thai. Obviously they attract people who want to be tough. But they do have some shortcomings.
