T Nation

Marriage: Still Worth It?

[quote]jwillow wrote:
MikeKubo wrote:
Me- You women and your greed. Always looking for what you can get out of a mother fucker, eh?

Wife- No, but that’s how the world’s always been. Women look for the providers and gatherers to take care of them. Men look for tits and ass. Better for making babies.

Me- Well, at least we’re still looking at a part of YOU, however shallow and dirty it may be, and not past you to see what kinda money you make or what kinda car you drive.

Doesn’t the kind of money you make have a lot to do with who you are?

You respect a guy that busts his ass in the gym to build a good physique, right? How is that different than a guy who busts his ass to get someplace in his career?[/quote]

how about this… unemployed lazy guy, not a hardworker or ambitious, buys a lottery ticket, wins powerball, owns a mansion and three lambos.

do you think he might just get an attractive girlfriend too?

is it because his material things reflect his ambitions and hard work?

nope.

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[quote]nephorm wrote:
Personally, I don’t know why a person would even get married these days unless planning to have children, but that’s me.[/quote]

It’s not just you. I feel the same way. But I think many if not most women see marriage differently.

I’m not talking about the gold-diggers; I’m talking about the women who are romantic idealists.

Many years ago, I said something just like what you wrote to a girl I had been living with for several years. I realized immediately that it was the wrong thing to say, as she was obviously deeply hurt. She was a great girl, I was in my late twenties and everyone - family, friends - were constantly asking me when I was going to marry her.

When I blurted out during one of these grilling sessions “I don’t know why people would get married unless they’re ready to have kids”, I think what she heard me say was “I don’t love you enough to marry you; I don’t think you’re the one for me.” I’m not certain. We never discussed it afterwards. But that may have been the beginning of the slow unravelling of our relationship.

I agree with BigRagoo. If you have to do the prenup, just forget the marriage, regardless of your economical status.

[quote]jwillow wrote:
Doesn’t the kind of money you make have a lot to do with who you are?

You respect a guy that busts his ass in the gym to build a good physique, right? How is that different than a guy who busts his ass to get someplace in his career?

ProjectX wrote:
how about this… unemployed lazy guy, not a hardworker or ambitious, buys a lottery ticket, wins powerball, owns a mansion and three lambos.

do you think he might just get an attractive girlfriend too?

is it because his material things reflect his ambitions and hard work?

nope.[/quote]

Of course you’re right. And the same goes for a lazy guy who inherits money.

Nevertheless, I think my point remains true as a general rule. After all, most of the money in this world is earned, not won or inherited.

I guess we would both agree that how the money is made is at least if not more important than how much. Fortunately, there are women who feel the same way, and they are inevitably the ones worth pursuing.

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I like marriage, I’ve been married three times so far and will probably get married at least two more times before I die…

[quote]pushharder wrote:
nephorm wrote:
…Personally, I don’t know why a person would even get married these days unless planning to have children, but that’s me. I imagine that, as with many things in life, marriage is neither simply good nor simply bad. It is one choice among many that for some people will yield mostly good things, for others mostly bad, and for the bulk of human beings will be a mixed blessing.

There are several good reasons to get married. As you mentioned children are one and a very important one. Mine are the greatest treasure on this earth and the satisfaction I’ve gained while seeing them grow up is unmeasurable. If this was the ONLY reason to get married as you mentioned it would be more than enough for me.

As I said there are others:

Companionship

Friendship (yes, there is a difference between it and companionship)

Love

Sex (Don’t give me any bullshit about so and so who is single and gets so much more than so and so who is married. The bottom line is despite all the whining - some of it rightfully so - married guys get more action. Period. I’ve heard the average married guy gets it two or three times a week and I can absolutely guarantee you that the average single guy does not.)

I do believe that marriage has suffered as there have become fewer social pressures for couples to stay together. Being spoiled and having a functional marriage are incompatible as well…

True. That and people are just plain lazier and not willing to work at marriage. The analogies at your local gym will work fine here. You’ve got a few that are willing to bust their asses at training and you’ve got your many that want instant gratification from going through the motions without the requisite effort.

Generally speaking, marriage is no different than almost every other endeavor in life - you get out of it what you put into it.

When you do see what you think is the perfect marriage just remember they weren’t necessarily the perfect match but most likely they were willing to commit and more importantly they were willing to commit over and over and over again.

Take the the popular mantra on this site:

Lift

Eat

Rest

Repeat

and apply the basic underlying principles to your marriage and you will be successful.

Yes, you’ll have aches and pains and injuries and boredom and ups and downs and complexities and questions and answers and on and on and on but remember “Life’s tough, wear a fuckin’ helmet”, you whiney bastard. (Not directing that at you, Nephorm. It’s just a general colloquialism.)[/quote]

Couldn’t agree more. It’s like listening to some guy whine about how he can’t lose weight or put on muscle, but he doesn’t put in the work, doesn’t have a clue how to go about doing either, and is not particularly interested in learing how to.

Most of the marriages I have seen fail were because the couple did not take their marriage vows seriously and were unwilling to work hard at staying married when things got tough. My advice would be that if you do not take the commitment of marriage seriously than don’t get married. If you are wiling and able to commit to one person for the rest of your life than make sure you choose your spouse wisely, and then enjoy the fruits of your labors.

I have talked with quite a few married couples that have been together for 40+ years and many say that there were rough times and that they were not sure if they could make it through them. When the rough times passed their marriage was stronger than ever.

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
Excellent points and from this and other posts I’ve read of yours, it seems that you have a very loving, happy and solid marriage. I congratulate you and wish you much more happiness.

[/quote]

Thanks, but I will confess that it is not easy to keep things clicking. We have our spats and get pissed at each other and have bad days, but behind all of that we both know that we are definitely made for each other and we can get past any petty disagreement.

Sounds like a bunch of whiny, angst ridden bullshit to me.

Marriage is what you make of it. That, and make sure you know who the fuck you’re marrying - if I had a dime for every dipshit who got married for all the wrong reasons I’d be a millionaire.

Not to mention, if the guy’s wife was fucking around on him, then he must have had one seriously shitty lawyer if he couldn’t prove infidelity on her part.

Be confident in yourself, confident in the person you married and strive to improve yourself, and your marriage will follow suit.

Unless you married some fucked up psycho - then it’s your fault for having shitty judgement.

[quote]BigRagoo wrote:
Bunch of jaded motherfuckers, aren’t we??

What I see as a problem is that couples make the jump to marriage way before they know who they are as a couple. When expectations aren’t met, and unforseen events take place, the person one marries may not be the same person after all that. I see that people marry quick and establish themselves fast after tying the knot, which is a set up for huge disappointment, in that they put themselves in financial debt and have kids way sooner than they are actually ready for. This breeds resentment and jealousy between one another which leads to infidelity and other problems like that.

I stress getting to know yourself and WHO YOU ARE ABOUT TO MARRY just what you expect out of a marriage before taking the plunge. This way you experience hardships without the burden of the nuptial and see where you stand when you make it through.

Another problem I see is people marrying because “it’s the thing to do”. That is not a commitment in my eyes. That is going through the motions because one doesn’t know what he wants, or feels the need to please others. Don’t marry until you want to, not because you feel you have to.

As for pre-nups, that is toatally up to the individual. If one has established himself is well off, he may be wise to protect what he earned. But again, this is where knowing your future spouse comes in. I feel if you need to have a pre-nup, you don’t trust your future wife, and it is doomed to fail. I would not enter a marriage with the notion that I need to protect myself from a nasty divorce. If I felt that way, I don’t need to marry her.

In a nutshell, marriage is still worth it, if you and your fiancee truly feel as one and that you want to be united. Now this may take dating many people to find the one that is worth fighting over and sticking with. If you don’t feel like it’s gonna last, don’t do it. That will save you your money and heartbreak.[/quote]

This is the smartest post I’ve read in a long time. Marrying isn’t bad, but it’s critical to examine your motivations for marrying, since who you marry is one of the biggest and most important decision of your life. Your choice of partner will probably influence your happiness more than almost anything else.

And I also have to say… Marriage is a business??? Hello? What has marriage always been? An arrangement that was practically necessary to survive and thrive. Not an indulgence. Not an expression of love.

It’s only recently that women have even been truly free to choose not to marry and have any decent options open to them. It’s only recently that we’ve had lifestyles that allow a bachelor to remain a bachelor and still eat relatively well and have a clean house.

So if marriage is a business, that’s no change from what it’s always been. The problem lies in the conflicting cultural messages surrounding marriage - on one hand, we’re raised to believe it should be based on Hollywood love, but on the other hand, people still often treat it like a business.

I agree with Big - you’ve got to be clear with yourself and your partner what your expectations are. If some rich a-hole wants to marry a trophy wife half his age and buy her an escalade and some boobs, and they’re both fine with their relationship being an exchange of goods and services, fine with me. But pretending it’s love is retarded.

But that doesn’t mean that marrying for love is pointless. When I marry, it’ll be to a man who wants to be my partner for life. He’ll have the things that my 30 years of life experience have taught me are important in a partner - intelligence, humour, adaptability, openmindedness, common interests, honesty, self-confidence, consideration and an ability to communicate. We’ll share genuine love, respect, admiration and trust - things that we’ll have built by truly getting to know each other.

Human relationships come in all forms - marriage is no different.

Marriage-Two people trying to solve a bunch of problems they wouldn’t have if they were single!

Why do divorces alway end up in the women’s favor? Even if she cheats on you, you still pay. I mean WTF kinda of stupid thing is that.

[quote]five-twelve wrote:
Why do divorces alway end up in the women’s favor? Even if she cheats on you, you still pay. I mean WTF kinda of stupid thing is that.

[/quote]

This is something I don’t understand, but from what I am gathering, it is turning around some. I know a guy who’s wife was cheating on him, and when they split, she got the minimum of what she could have gotten.

[quote]SkyNett wrote:
Marriage is what you make of it. That, and make sure you know who the fuck you’re marrying - if I had a dime for every dipshit who got married for all the wrong reasons I’d be a millionaire.

Be confident in yourself, confident in the person you married and strive to improve yourself, and your marriage will follow suit.[/quote]

I know I’m throwing myself into the lion’s den here, but IMO marriage is like any other long term decision. Consider what you’re getting into.

My husband and I met over a common hobby - building, racing, restoring and modifying cars and bikes. We were friends for 6 YEARS before we started dating. We dated for 3 YEARS before we started living together. We lived together for 2 YEARS before getting married. We’ve been married for 13 years now. (Yeah, I’m kinda old.)

We’ve been through deaths, 6 major back injuries, 8 surgeries, 4 layoffs and remodeling a house together among other things. No matter what happened, we always had something in common to fall back on. No sex due to injuries - ok, let’s start another car project. Money tight due to a layoff - ok, let’s find … um … “other” ways to amuse ourselves. Can’t be all “lovey” with each other - ok, let’s be buds for a while.

Before any long term commitment, know the “rules”. We knew going in what we wanted with children, hobbies, money, travel, pretty much everything.

Think before you leap.

 To all you bitter whiners out there -- stop!!  Go back and reread PushHarder and BigRagoos posts. They are both total gems of wisdom!!! I'm a guy who's been married for 20 + years and both of those guys are completely correct.  Kids alone would make it worth it.  But Push is so right about that and everything else.  I hate to sound Dr. Philish but I really do think that a lot of marriages flounder on lack of communication.  

In the OP’s scenario, wife’s sudden drop of libido should have caused the hubby to take action and ask her what’s wrong? And tell her we need to have more sex. And ask her what can I do different to help make that to happen. And if after a lot of effort nothing is helping then go to a marriage counselor. And really try like Push says. I see too many couples who say shit like “we drifted” or “she/he changed” etc i.e Married people have to get shit out in the open and put some effort into it. I hate it when I hear people both men and women say shit like “I shouldn’t have to say anything my wife/husband should just know.” People who say that are not communicating. That’s my two cents.

[quote]BigRagoo wrote:
five-twelve wrote:
Why do divorces alway end up in the women’s favor? Even if she cheats on you, you still pay. I mean WTF kinda of stupid thing is that.

This is something I don’t understand, but from what I am gathering, it is turning around some. I know a guy who’s wife was cheating on him, and when they split, she got the minimum of what she could have gotten. [/quote]

One of the worst things that happened to marriage in the last 30 years is the concept of “no-fault” divorce. It’s usually always someones fault and it’s a virtual free pass for bad behavior for the spouse with the least earning prospects.

The idea that someone can go out and have an affair and then be compensated for doing so by their ex is absolutely ridiculous. In many cases one of the spouses would have been sucessful in business with or without the other partner. It’s just wacky that they should have to pay support for that person simply because they hit the marriage lottery. I also think Child support shoud, by law, be used only for the benefit of the child. I bet in 90% of the cases it’s used to benefit the custodial parent far more then the child.

I’ve got a few friends that are in that boat. It’s shocking what greed will do to some people. It turns them into lying, cheating vindictive people. The fear of having to work and get a job is frightneing to some people.

Yeah, I have to echo the point about people getting married too early.

When people are fresh out of school, just starting their jobs, and they get married, they have no idea yet what the real world is like and how they fit into it.

How the hell can you get married and then be happy when the entire world proceeds to turn upside-down? It’s hard enough without the added baggage that goes into marriage.

So, maybe part of the trick is to find a quality person, not someone who only just happens to be sexy…

Anyway, beware of my advice, it looks like I’ll die unmarried at this rate because I’m a picky bastard! :wink:

Better to die a bachelor than live in a shitty marriage, imo.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Yeah, I have to echo the point about people getting married too early.

When people are fresh out of school, just starting their jobs, and they get married, they have no idea yet what the real world is like and how they fit into it.

How the hell can you get married and then be happy when the entire world proceeds to turn upside-down? It’s hard enough without the added baggage that goes into marriage.

So, maybe part of the trick is to find a quality person, not someone who only just happens to be sexy…

Anyway, beware of my advice, it looks like I’ll die unmarried at this rate because I’m a picky bastard! ;)[/quote]

Fuck Marriage and Yes Im bitter!

Wasted 12 years and lost everything even my dignety!

Im with a good woman now but marriage isnt an option!